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Resource design (mana)
ArchivedUser
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The element I consider most instrumental in the design of classes is their resource mechanic. Most games use what I call a ‘long-term’ resource system, where the player’s mana pool is sufficient for hundreds of spell casts and regenerates slowly. Then there’s a ‘short-term’ resource system, where the player has a small resource pool that is sufficient for only a handful of spells but it regenerates quickly. In both systems the rate at which the resource pool depletes depends on ability choices and also when the resource pool depletes the player is practically useless. Although, in a short-term system the player is back up and running in a brief period of time, whereas in the long-term system they remain useless unless they use other means of restoring their mana. If the duration of a fight is long enough then even the most efficient players will run out of mana and become sitting ducks.
Additionally, short-term resource systems have the benefit of introducing ‘mana burning’ mechanics in good taste. In a long-term system, having abilities that burn the enemy's mana has little depth as there are no compelling reasons against it and undesirable counterplay options (mana pots/consumables are not desirable in competitive PvP formats). In a short-term system, mana burning may create a dynamic where a player can purposely deplete their mana in anticipation of being mana burned.
A benefit of long-term resource systems is that they provide a time limit to encounters to prevent potential stalemates. In this system, usually the first person/team to run out of mana will lose and the encounter comes to a conclusion.
It appears to me that a long-term resource system is inferior to a short-term one, but why have long-term resource systems been the norm in MMOs? Which do you prefer and why?
Additionally, short-term resource systems have the benefit of introducing ‘mana burning’ mechanics in good taste. In a long-term system, having abilities that burn the enemy's mana has little depth as there are no compelling reasons against it and undesirable counterplay options (mana pots/consumables are not desirable in competitive PvP formats). In a short-term system, mana burning may create a dynamic where a player can purposely deplete their mana in anticipation of being mana burned.
A benefit of long-term resource systems is that they provide a time limit to encounters to prevent potential stalemates. In this system, usually the first person/team to run out of mana will lose and the encounter comes to a conclusion.
It appears to me that a long-term resource system is inferior to a short-term one, but why have long-term resource systems been the norm in MMOs? Which do you prefer and why?
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It gives a reason to pace yourself in any given content which adds to the strategic part of a fight.
In a PvE environment running out of mana means you didn't manage your mana properly and therefore lose out on damage or healing on the boss you're fighting or, in case your entire group runs out of mana, that the general output of numbers isn't high enough for the encounter you're trying yet.
In a PvP environment it gives another layer of risk-reward gameplay by efficiency. While trying to avoid getting your mana burned you have to choose what spells you use in oder to bring out the best damage or stay alive without depleting your mana completely. So, as a healer it would be something like "Do I heal to full with a spell that costs 20% of my entire mana or do I use a small heal to stay alive for a mere 5% of my mana, with the risk of getting in a bad situation".
I am sure the short-term resource system has it's own type of strategic gameplay but to me it just seems vulnerable to button mashing. I don't have enough experience with it to judge it properly.
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I'd partly disagree with that.
It is way easier to survive a battle for 5 seconds so you healer has ~50% of his mana back than to try and survive until your healer regenerated 5% of his mana with a long-term system.
Maybe button mashing wasn't the right description for it (although I still feel it's vulnerable to it for players who are not that adapt at resource management) but the short-term system would make combat more fast-paced in terms of efficiency while almost completely removing the aspect of time-limit by resource from the game.
You'd be made to constantly churn out spells in order to not waste your mana (from a competetive standpoint, capping your mana and letting regen go to waste is a failure) and bosses could be easily done with a tank and 2 healers by simply rotating between the 2 healers: one heals the tank while the other regenerates, then switch.
Of course decision making is still a valid point. Which spells to use in order to not waste your mana or end up in danger of being defeated are always a concern in battle but if you know you can definitly survive the next 5 to 10 seconds without any skills used, resource costs become irrelevant in comparison to cooldowns on your abilities as you will simply regen back to 100%.
Honestly that's one of the only reasons I prefer a short term system for all classes, so idk if it's really worth doing it just for one interesting mechanic to be in game.
I feel healers are the biggest balancing issue with a short term system. As was stated, 2 healers and a tank could theoretically down every dungeon without a dps check.
Let's say the ability has a 2 minute CD so you can't spam it to just remove your opponents mana. And instead of simply burning some of the mana away it leaves a debuff that, for example, doubles your spells cost.
If it's like that or in a similar way it could still be an engaging mechanic that test players skills as you can still manage how much of your mana will be burned to an extend if you're the victim or, if aligned properly with other abilities and such, can drain pretty much all of the victims mana if you force them to use high cost spells to stay alive.
Let’s say the ability has a 2 minute CD so you can’t spam it to just remove your opponents mana. And instead of simply burning some of the mana away it leaves a debuff that, for example, doubles your spells cost. [/quote]
2 minute CD? It would make the mana burn pretty insignificant. Look at, how it was done for Priest in TBC (which was a viable strategy there for duels/arena). It had no CD, but you couldn't just spam it mindlessly nor it removed almost instantly the whole mana of the opponent.
[quote quote=8577]One thing I really like about short term systems is something you mentioned, and that’s mana burn abilities. With long term it’s just far too powerful of a mechanic, and about as anti-fun as you can get. With short term mana burn can actually happen. [/quote]
Mana burn is absolutely fine within the long-term system. Almost whole 2's arena times in TBC for many setups were based on the concept of draining the opponent's mana, which in the end didn't turned out to be objectively the most efficient and best way of playing, but was perfectly fine within the reality of retail TBC times. These games were extremely long, almost passive like, the LD mirror match back in those days could last easily for 40-60 minutes, which is contradictory, which what you are saying. We don't know anything about the gameplay of AoC, which leads to the conclusion that mana burn mechanics don't have to be as bad as you portrait them. I wouldn't mind them in the game.
About the topic, the game should consist of classes using one system (mana dependent ones should definitely stick to the long-term system) and other classes using the second one, just like in WoW, but take that in mind, if this game should inspire on something from WoW, it should be only for a Vanilla to TBC time, anything from newer expansions of WoW will only deteriorate the game.
2 minute CD? It would make the mana burn pretty insignificant.
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That depends on how effective the manaburn is. If it takes 5-10% of your mana, yes, that'd be insignificant. If it takes 50% of your mana, having anything less than that makes the ability broken. And in my example the ability would be able to burn quite a huge chunk of your mana if used properly so that CD is needed.
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About the topic, the game should consist of classes using one system (mana dependent ones should definitely stick to the long-term system) and other classes using the second one, just like in WoW, but take that in mind, if this game should inspire on something from WoW, it should be only for a Vanilla to TBC time, anything from newer expansions of WoW will only deteriorate the game.
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I wholeheartedly agree with the first statement of yours. The resource system should be class related.
For the second statement though...sure, the devs might not have made the best decisions regarding community related stuff but mechanically they still have had a few really good ideas. To simply zone out everything from a game because it has a generally bad reception in the community is just as bad in itself. Also you can still learn from others mistakes and maybe even redeem those features.
That depends on how effective the manaburn is. If it takes 5-10% of your mana, yes, that’d be insignificant. If it takes 50% of your mana, having anything less than that makes the ability broken. And in my example the ability would be able to burn quite a huge chunk of your mana if used properly so that CD is needed.[/quote]
If mana burn would take 50% of someone's mana, it would be broken neverthless of the length of CD, as it would set the fight/encounter on a completely different level from the very beginning of it than it would be normally expected in a fight with an opponent without mana burn mechanics, so in a much more often situation. If mana burn mechanics are supposed to be present in the game, they cannot be so drastic in their effects nor limitations of using them.
[quote quote=8617]I wholeheartedly agree with the first statement of yours. The resource system should be class related.
For the second statement though…sure, the devs might not have made the best decisions regarding community related stuff but mechanically they still have had a few really good ideas. To simply zone out everything from a game because it has a generally bad reception in the community is just as bad in itself. [/quote]
Those two things are immanently related with itself as WoW is a MMO game. Neverthless of that, I wasn't talking about the community and things directly related to it, but yes, they made a whole lot of bad decisions when it comes to it, and when it comes to the gameplay and mechanics of the game. To be honest, I can't name nor remember any change that would affect WoW after the release of WotLK positively, which is up to the subjective and relative sense of what is better or not, but also have an reflection on objective state of things such as the first lowering interest of the game in the history of it, in the times of the WotLK expansion (yes, in times of WotLK there was the highest number of subscriptions, but it didn't happen in the late stage of the expansion, it was too early to be possibly impacted directly by the expansion itself, it was still the gleanings of how people recognised WoW by TBC times) and today's rising interest of the Vanilla and TBC content.
As you can see, I didn't zoned out anything as you are trying to say, I haven't even precisely said what I meant in my previous post and my statement was based on the facts.
If you remember any positives, feel free to help me with that.
[quote quote=8617]Also you can still learn from others mistakes and maybe even redeem those features.[/quote]
This is exactly what I was saying from the beginning, by avoid like the plague what was done after the release of WotLK.
If mana burn would take 50% of someone’s mana, it would be broken neverthless of the length of CD
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That was an imaginary number and also, yet again, depends on the circumstances of the design. If people are able to regen a lot of mana through abilities or have a high base regen there'd be no problem.
Remember, we're not talking facts here, those are ideas.
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As you can see, I didn’t zoned out anything as you are trying to say, I haven’t even precisely said what I meant in my previous post and my statement was based on the facts.
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[quote quote=8641]
if this game should inspire on something from WoW, it should be only for a Vanilla to TBC time, anything from newer expansions of WoW will only deteriorate the game.
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Your wording indicated that they should not look for <strong>ANYTHING</strong> beyond WotLk as inspiration. Nor did I ever say that you tried to zone out anything. I said that in a general sense zoning out things one could possibly learn from is a mistake.
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This is exactly what I was saying from the beginning, by avoid like the plague what was done after the release of WotLK.
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To learn from others mistakes or try to redeem features is the exact opposite of avoiding them like a plague. If you want to learn from them, you have to look at them intensly and figure out why they didn't work.
But that's not something to be discussed in this thread.
Remember, we’re not talking facts here, those are ideas.[/quote]
This is what's for the word "if" was added to the sentence.
If people are able to regen a lot of mana through abilities or have a high base mana regen, then there is a problem, for classes that would lack the mana burn mechanics, if those earlier mentioned, high base mana regen or abilities regenerating mana would be a direct response to the balancing problems that mana burn mechanics could pose to certain classes.
[quote quote=8673]Your wording indicated that they should not look for ANYTHING beyond WotLk as inspiration. Nor did I ever say that you tried to zone out anything. I said that in a general sense zoning out things one could possibly learn from is a mistake.[/quote]
That's true, I don't believe that the game could in any possible way benefit from the solutions presented after the release of WotLK (massive simplification and casualization). The other thing is that I don't like the sound of "zoning out" as I feels to me as a synonym to doing an unecessary and wrong generalization, which is not true in this case.
[quote quote=8673]To learn from others mistakes or try to redeem features is the exact opposite of avoiding them like a plague. If you want to learn from them, you have to look at them intensly and figure out why they didn’t work.
But that’s not something to be discussed in this thread.[/quote]
No, it's absolutely not, at least not in this example, because it's not contradictory here. It's really simple, learning from other's mistakes by just avoiding them, especially, if you have an alternative to "intense studying" of the mistakes presented on a golden plate in front of your nose, how things be done correctly - Vanilla and TBC.
If we look at the WoW history, and how it was developed, we see that there were two doctrines regarding the directions it was heading. One being a complete opposite thing from the other. One leaning toward a bigger simplification, making everything (in every possible aspect, from items and dungeons/raids to the whole relative difficulty of the gameplay) more accessible and easier to obtain, but in the same moment less significant, while the other one being a complete denying of this trend. The latter we could see to the some extend to the last days of TBC (because it was already under the influence I mentioned as first) and the simplification trend, since WotLK release.
It's really that easy to just stick to the general dogmas, under which Vanilla and TBC was created, which stay on a complete opposite front to what was presented after those times.
Conclusion of the day: let's not waste time on looking at the mistakes, if you can take the best from solutions that were opposite to them.
Also, if you started the dicussion about certain matter, it's only up to me now to decide, if it should be discussed or not. ;)
If, people are able to regen a lot of mana through abilities or have a high base mana regen, then there is a problem, for classes that would lack the mana burn mechanics, if those earlier mentioned, high base mana regen or abilities regenerating mana would be a direct response to the balancing problems that mana burn mechanics could pose to certain classes.
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Just that you don't balance around an ability but rather implement abilities around present balanced designs.
We have no idea how exactly the classes in AoC will function.
If the general design is for them to have mana regen abilities or high base mana regen, a very potent manaburn would not pose a problem.
If the general design is for them to have no mana regen whatsoever any manaburn ability could become gamebreaking.
You take a look at how the classes are generally designed and decide upon that whether, or how, to implement certain types of abilities.
Because of our lack of knowledge regarding the circumstances of their design we only talk ideas, not facts. As I've stated before.
I feel a short-term resource system (for all classes) is suitable to an environment where healing throughput is slightly less than or equal to damage output. In this environment, active damage mitigation plays a big role in staying alive, adding the importance of short duration mitigation buffs to the game. A short-term resource system is arguably unintuitive in an environment where healing throughput is greater than damage throughput. In such an environment the short-term system creates a dynamic where healers rarely run out of mana and damage dealers would have depleted theirs in attempts to kill. This is certainly not ideal. When healing is stronger than damage the introduction of CC and healing debuffs are required to set up kills: this is the case with most MMORPGS with arenas.
In regards to the two healer and one tank setup, this is an interesting point. I understand that rotating two healers in a short-term resource environment will prevent them from going oom in encounters of any length (and therefore dps don't go oom). Running two healers in a long-term resource environment would result in them (and probably the dps) going oom. This would mean all encounters would have to be a dps check (soft or hard enrage of bosses) for the environment with the short-term resource. There appears to be no way around this.
Second, I think the biggest difference between the two systems is sustainability vs. burst. If you have a large mana pool with limited regen options, that's great for short encounters where you never run out of mana, and you can just spam your most powerful abilities. And the opposite is better for long encounters where you can live without the large bursts of damage/healing, and in exchange you don't have to worry about being useless when you run out of mana. I think the difference between these styles is most evident in their failure case; i.e. when you're not quite strong enough for a fight. Someone with a large mana pool will perform admirably for a while and then fall off a cliff, while someone with replenishable mana will slowly die from the beginning. Neither of these is really problematic though, as they both can be useful in certain situations, and bad in others.
Edit: Oh and about the two-healer comps: I think it's totally fine to allow it, since it comes with a big cost of DPS. And low DPS is time wasted, and time is money, etc. I think it would take some really messed up dungeon/encounter design to make double-healers OP or meta. And to be honest I wouldn't mind if double healers are OP in a couple rare dungeons, since more possibilities is always better in my book.
It would only make sense that a trained mage has a large well of power from which to draw on, but they may get tired if they don't pace themselves well enough.
Say a mage throws like 9-10 spells before they need to 'regen' casting stamina. Much in the way a warrior in most (Action-combat) games needs to regen their stam before diving into the fight again.
For mana, this would break up a 5 minute dps spam on a mage if they try and burst too fast in PvP, forcing them to be more strategic in what/when they cast something. For PvE I dont think a mage would ever need to regen their stam, as they would not be under threat quite as much as if an enemy player were bearing down on them.
Thoughts?
It would only make sense that a trained mage has a large well of power from which to draw on, but they may get tired if they don’t pace themselves well enough.
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So essentially you're talking about having the restrictions of both systems. That is, you can run out of mana in the long-term, and you can run out of stamina in the short-term.
It's not a bad idea, but I'm not sure I would want to deal with managing both resources AND cooldowns. And I think cooldown management is the one that I'd be least willing to give up. Some players really like resource management games though (like survival games with hunger, hp, warmth, stamina, etc.), so I'm sure someone would enjoy a mage variant that has to manage mana, stamina, cooldowns, and whatever else you can throw at them.
My thoughts are that while this type of regen might be super vital to pay attention to in PvP, allowing for more skill based and strategic use of abilities, it will also not be so vital in PvE, allowing people to do their normal rotation.
Ultimately, I don't think it would be too difficult to manage in PvE.
Ultimately, I don’t think it would be too difficult to manage in PvE.
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Yeah, PvP is always a tighter test of balance. Since a big part of PvE is just learning and strategizing for specific fights. And in PvP, you don't have much time to figure out your opponents, so it's mostly based on your personal skill and the general strength of your character. Not that you can't develop specific PvP strategies for duels against each class, but unless you're just dueling the same guy over and over, you don't have the time to learn how your opponent plays and how he built his character. And of course large-scale PvP is a dynamic mess where you'll never have the same fight twice.
But yeah, PvE is way more static. And "winning" by a large margin (because your class is imba) isn't a big deal, as long as there is plenty of interesting, varied content.
(Don't be fooled though; I prefer PvE most of the time)