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Will crafting have fun gameplay?
ArchivedUser
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The title is a rhetorical question... sort of.
So crafting, trading, and resource management sounds like it's going to be really interesting on a macro level because of Artisan classes/progression, the node system, and caravans and whatnot. But I am concerned that it's not going to be interesting on a smaller scale. In other words, I know it will be interesting to figure out the crafting system, plan where to buy materials and sell goods, and make progress on artisan classes; but what about performing the actual crafting?
Let me break this down a little more. I like to think of game activities on three scales:
1. Second-to-second gameplay, or execution - Action-y things like low-level combat (using abilities, moving, and dodging) or platforming action or anything that demands your attention every second.
2. Hour-to-hour, or strategy - Basically, deciding what you want to do next. Potentially involving research and planning. Stuff like figuring out character builds, deciding on priorities, or coming up with plans for your next adventuring/trade/political endeavor. There is no time pressure here; these things can be done whenever, even when off-line.
3. Minute-to-minute, or tactics - Figuring out HOW to carry out your plans, or making tactical adjustments to them. For example, puzzling out your strategy for a specific fight, plotting a route using your map, deciding which fork to take in a branching dungeon or story, or literal tactics during a large-scale seige.
So for instance, with combat, both PvE and PvP, there are clearly interesting decisions to make and things to do at each of those levels. But all of us should know from experience, that crafting usually does not provide the same level of engagement at the lower levels. In most MMOs, it's fun to figure out what items you can craft and deciding what you want. And in some MMOs, it's fun to figure out the recipes and maybe play the Action House/Trading Post to buy materials and decide what's most profitable at the time. Aaaand in basically no MMO, when it comes time to actually make the items, does it involve anything remotely interesting/engaging/challenging/fun.
I don't know why I spent so much effort elucidating this trend that we are all probably very aware of. I just really want to get some discussion going early, in the hopes that Intrepid can be of the few (or only) studio to make an interesting crafting system; one that can at least come close to combat in engagement.
As far as suggestions go, the most feasible path in my opinion, is to just have a ton of minigames for crafting. But that could ruin immersion or feel too gimmicky. (Just thinking about people comparing it to Neopets...) But maybe if the mini-games are thematically related enough to each crafting activity it would be okay? Like if masonry were an artisan class (it probably isn't), would Tetris be engaging enough, assuming that they could make some variations for different crafting recipes/levels? If you came across a reskinned form of Tetris (with less abstract graphics) in a fantasy MMO, would it feel out-of-place?
Then again, maybe most people are fine with a mild, easy-going crafting system, and I'm asking for too much?
So crafting, trading, and resource management sounds like it's going to be really interesting on a macro level because of Artisan classes/progression, the node system, and caravans and whatnot. But I am concerned that it's not going to be interesting on a smaller scale. In other words, I know it will be interesting to figure out the crafting system, plan where to buy materials and sell goods, and make progress on artisan classes; but what about performing the actual crafting?
Let me break this down a little more. I like to think of game activities on three scales:
1. Second-to-second gameplay, or execution - Action-y things like low-level combat (using abilities, moving, and dodging) or platforming action or anything that demands your attention every second.
2. Hour-to-hour, or strategy - Basically, deciding what you want to do next. Potentially involving research and planning. Stuff like figuring out character builds, deciding on priorities, or coming up with plans for your next adventuring/trade/political endeavor. There is no time pressure here; these things can be done whenever, even when off-line.
3. Minute-to-minute, or tactics - Figuring out HOW to carry out your plans, or making tactical adjustments to them. For example, puzzling out your strategy for a specific fight, plotting a route using your map, deciding which fork to take in a branching dungeon or story, or literal tactics during a large-scale seige.
So for instance, with combat, both PvE and PvP, there are clearly interesting decisions to make and things to do at each of those levels. But all of us should know from experience, that crafting usually does not provide the same level of engagement at the lower levels. In most MMOs, it's fun to figure out what items you can craft and deciding what you want. And in some MMOs, it's fun to figure out the recipes and maybe play the Action House/Trading Post to buy materials and decide what's most profitable at the time. Aaaand in basically no MMO, when it comes time to actually make the items, does it involve anything remotely interesting/engaging/challenging/fun.
I don't know why I spent so much effort elucidating this trend that we are all probably very aware of. I just really want to get some discussion going early, in the hopes that Intrepid can be of the few (or only) studio to make an interesting crafting system; one that can at least come close to combat in engagement.
As far as suggestions go, the most feasible path in my opinion, is to just have a ton of minigames for crafting. But that could ruin immersion or feel too gimmicky. (Just thinking about people comparing it to Neopets...) But maybe if the mini-games are thematically related enough to each crafting activity it would be okay? Like if masonry were an artisan class (it probably isn't), would Tetris be engaging enough, assuming that they could make some variations for different crafting recipes/levels? If you came across a reskinned form of Tetris (with less abstract graphics) in a fantasy MMO, would it feel out-of-place?
Then again, maybe most people are fine with a mild, easy-going crafting system, and I'm asking for too much?
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I don't think tetris would work for masonry, but some kind of interface where there's some reaction/strategic placement skills required to actually make something good could separate crafters. Maybe a needle and thread mini game for cloth work, a tension mini-game for tanning leather, etc.
I would really look forward to this; just about all the other mmos make it impossible to distinguish yourself as a crafter. Imagine people being able to twitch-stream their crafting process because people are actually interested in that.
This to me says a lot about the direction they are going in with it. I hope it strikes a fine balance between EVE farming and an self generating impactful direction of a character to take. I think in an ideal world a profession would be a direction a character takes on a full time basis over PVE/PVP content, that would be amazing to see and I think where other MMO's have found a lot of success.
A lot of people are looking forward to AoC purely for the crafting details so far.
I look forward to seeing how involved or engaging the crafting system will be. Hopefully not the typical MMO were you just look up a crafting guide online plop down some coin to buy materials and binge craft to max level in one sessions. Something that's fun and engaging to do and not repetitive and boring.
Sadly that version fell somewhat flat as they only filled a HQ bar that decided between high and low quality outcome if it was filled 80% you had an 80% chance to get High Quality.
I would like to see a similiar system where crafters need to use skills similiar to the fighter classes but instead of only going from 0 to 1 i would like if different aspects of the item could be improved/decreased(for higher improvement somewhere else) depending on the materials and the skills used while crafting.
That could lead to two people selling the same iron dagger but one of them was going for higher durability while the other one was going for more damage.
This could be further diversified: bleeding, better poison effects, staffs that decrease your manapoll but increase your man regeneration, a hammer that has more weight added then normal and as such swings slower but that hammer does more damage and throws enemies back a little bit.
just some ideas.
For example, lets take the mini-game idea. Has a leather worker, i have the option of making a nice armor that, no mather the rng, would be a upgrade for me. The mini-game goes like at the top, there is this armor. But to craft it, i could need some requirement. Lets say ( i imagine a triangle ladder kinda setup) in order to craft that armor, i would start by making 4 shoes. The better the quality of the material or the end result of the shoes would get my "chance ratio" a little higher. So i build the 4 shoes, now i need to build 2 glove then 2 armor, then 5 eyes patch ect... At the end, it take all my end result gear, calculate the gearscore of item ( end result quality, mats quality, RNG ect) to give me the armor with X% of RNG bonus stats or something like that.
I think it could be interesting.
I'll analogize it like this: say I bought something on Ebay, and it got delivered "Not at advertised", meaning it was missing something or was just deficient in some way. Now imagine I don't get a refund. Wasn't that fun? Try again next time buddy! RNG!
I get it, for some people: you win some, you lose some is interesting, but that's virtually all the other mmorpgs on the market. Endless grinding for RNG drops, critical strikes based on your gear stats rather than if you aimed for the heart, the head, or a bicep. I'm trying to get away from that stuff because if I wanted to play slots, I'd go to Vegas.
The only mmo I've played that had somewhat interesting crafting was a game I played as a kid called Free Realms (I think it's dead now). It also had non-combat classes/skill trees which were fun (some rather strange too, such as mailman...?)
Overall, it would be nice if the crafting involves skill, and also isn't boring as hell.
I like Tam_Hawkins point as well on being able to customize gear with different damage types and effects. Maybe even certain visual enhancements could also be unlocked? And you would have to be a higher level to get them? It would make sense I think, in relation to the real world, as when you're just starting a craft you can usually on make the most crude looking items but as you become more dexterous and learn to understand the medium better you can make more fine and complex details (such as when sculpting, as a beginner you may be able to make a functional bowl, but it looks like crap, but as a master you can make a perfectly shaped and intricately designed one). It would also give more value to master crafters as then you could only get some of the really cool looking gear from them. This is of course is only in relation to weapons or armor though, an example being as a master weaponsmith you could have more options in what type of blades/hammers/spearheads you can craft, or what handles or pommels you can add. The damage might not even be that much higher compared to just a professional level smith, but the coolness factor is largely different. I think it would make master smiths and such a lot more sought after, and allow for more diverse and specialized player shops or traders.
I'm not sure how you'd differentiate something like a master alchemist to a professional one though. Maybe they can add more extra effects?
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/De3crfA.png" alt="crafting" />
There'll be also player shops who offer for example repair, hopefully there'll be a lot of mechanics like this to make the game player based.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14luppZ3Ub8jmcw_aK65QWxYY4xa8qAo9zRfpYWBxOXE/edit#heading=h.wcgb3sl6o1e5