Make the game harder than any other MMO!

Hello

Excuse me if this might be repost or if it's in the wrong section.

I want to touch two big points:
1. WOW Vanilla, Lineage 2, Archeage where awesome because you needed allot of work/time to invest in them.

Why do i say that:

When you say MMO, you say allot of time to burn in the game. That is why we love them.
There is no over night be the best gear. We have other games that satisfy the fast paced.
The most rewarding feeling is when you have a reward that is proportional with time investment.

If you have a lot of time invested, it's harder to leave the game. You have the respect of other players (respect is the one of the most important in a MMO) because of your gear = time.

You have something to do all the time, because the target cannot be achieved by everyone = you get respect

If you have PVP ranks, and achieve the highest of them all, everyone will respect you for it. Because that they know that it;s harder to obtain for PVEers.

Time consuming tasks always require teams. Teams that hold position in a farming zone for example must do PVP also. Team = fun and respect. The teams should be limited in size, because they become zerg, and fighting zergs it;s not fun and requieres less skill.

The gear progression should not be boostable If you start the game, you cannot catch up with your friends by joining the higher gear instances. You need to farm your way up thru all the previous gear = time and purpose.

In any case, there should not be a cash shop that disrupts this balance. Everyone should get thru all the content to reach the high end.

2. The next topic i feel it's one of the most important
We need statistics. Mobs killed, damage done, range damage done, chrits, deatsh, killboard etc.
Basicaly, a huge database that collects at the first glance, trash information.
With that information you can make reports/ranks. Ranks = respect. (many WOW players play the game now just for achevements/stats).

One interesting example is that you can make a report that shows the PVP talent of a player, by increasig the pvp score of the player when he has lower gear. If you are low geared and have skill to kill a wel geared player, it shoud reward you more points. And less points for a well geared player killing a low geared player. (think of it as a gear score).

Stats should be easily exported and let the comunity do their reports (the way WN8 in world of tanks work) if you cannot implement them yourselves now.

Theese stats will eliminate the need of players to prove themselves when they join a guild. They will help them.


Make it harder guys, everyone failed because the content was burned out waay to fast than the developers can introduce. This will give you time to build new content and everyone is happy.

If they want fast paced MMO, let them play WOW (that is almost dead with boredom).

Thank you for your patience and excuse my English, i'm not native.

Tex
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Comments

  • I agree 100% with the Title of this Post, but let me ask you
    • How much emphasis should Gear have on deciding the Victor of a PvP Engagement & PvE Engagement ?
  • Eragale said:

    • How much emphasis should Gear have on deciding the Victor of a PvP Engagement & PvE Engagement ?
    It should be based on skills not on gear.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2018
    @NightshadeRaven
    After browsing on YouTube, i ironically found this video on YouTube 
    https://youtu.be/LxcomMKSdTU?t=35s ( think i ends at 4:16 )

    So now that i kinda have an idea as to what @_Tex_  is talking about ...
    _Tex_ said:
    " ... One interesting example is that you can make a report that shows the PVP talent of a player, by increasig the pvp score of the player when he has lower gear. If you are low geared and have skill to kill a wel geared player, it shoud reward you more points. And less points for a well geared player killing a low geared player. (think of it as a gear score ...
    But this sounds like Arena-PvP. Now although Arena-PvP is kinda fun at first ... I'd always prefer unorganized Open-World PvP - where things are sporadic. I know that Arena-PvP Ratings ( which ... solely based on Gear in other MMOs ) can be manipulated by Factions and possibly Guild Politics. Thus, losing the " freshness " of Arena-PvP and gets dull

    Even though Open World  PvP could become Zergy due to fast-travel and Guild Politics too ... and possibly camping Farm spots.

    EDIT: but we know that the Corruption System & NO Fast Travel in Ashes of Creation fixes the Common problems you see in most Open-World PvP MMOs

    With all this said, I personally don't like my effectiveness ( in PvE and PvP ) being decided on a Number.

    So yeah, in short, there should NOT be so much emphasis on Gear But then it begs the question:
    • How much emphasis should Skill have in a PvE Engagement & PvP Engagement ?
    • How much emphasis should LvL have in a PvE Engagement & PvP Engagement ?
    And since Action-Combat will be one of the iterations of Combat, it opens-up more options for Combat. So as long as its not:
    • Spammable via AoE
    • Senseless Hack-&-Slash
    • and maybe other things i'm missing
    the hack-n-slash could technically work ,,, but the NPCs' A.I. would have to be to give Player a challenge ... as opposed to dumb A.I. **looks at BDO** . It'll potentially be more tough on the Client-side/ Servers due to so many players Moving around via Action-Oriented Abilities ... but still more options. Which would then )

    ... i'm still hoping that Long-range will have to aim in some ( or most ) of their abilities. Same goes for Close-range 


  • Eragale said:

    All I will say is your Epeen is showing. A score does not prove anything. Using skills(not the skills on your UI)  to better place yourself to be productive is better then a number which you aspire too.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2018
    @NightshadeRaven
    I'm not even sure what that even meant until i looked it up just now. Neither am I sure what you're insinuating but ...

    ... I just know that many players don't want an New MMORPG thats turns out to be a WoW Clone ( or any type of clone at that ). And the only way to do that is not wanting Features that are strikingly similar to other MMOs ( World of Warcraft in this case )... otherwise, Ashes of Creation will be become a WoW Clone if not too careful 

    Because the only things i've said are a bunch of " Hypothetical-Scenarios " ... all of which has happened in past MMOs

    Maybe its the facial expression in my  Profile Pic  ? idk but it left me bewildered 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2018
    From a business standpoint, you cant make a game that is meant for thousands who share the same server to incredibly hard as it alienates people who are just there to play. From a player standpoint, I would love it but doubt I would ever happen.
  • nagash said:

    Eve Online is the only game I know of which all the players play on a single shard. In its hay days there were up to 60,000 players. I think now it only get to around 25,000.
  • Yes lets make it unplayable and so hard that its not fun anymore. 

  • Eragale said:
    I agree 100% with the Title of this Post, but let me ask you
    • How much emphasis should Gear have on deciding the Victor of a PvP Engagement & PvE Engagement ?
    I'd say gear needs to play the roll it normally does in games, otherwise what would be the point in questing for gear in the first place.  Gear is not the the roadblock for separating the good and bad players.  You can have a really crappy player in epic level gear still fail regularly due their lack of skill and knowledge.
  • @Okieboo
    You'd rather have it too easy to where its not fun anymore ? I'm sure the Classic WoW Fans would definitely be able to relate

    If there's no challenge then/ if its too easy, it won't be fun anymore
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2018
    @Warkov
    I just wanted to see what his/ her perspective on it was 

    I personally think Gear, Level and Skill should be balanced - but with a (slight) preference to Skill. Whereas LvL (presumably) being associate with Racial-Stat-Progression( which varies )

     I'll assume Tul-Nar either has a "set-racial-stat-progression " ... or something similar to "Pokemon Natures" due to their being Mammalian, Reptilian and Humanoid attributes - but i honestly don't know  :D  
  • Is it fun?  This is really the only thing that matters.
  • Eragale said:
    @Okieboo
    You'd rather have it too easy to where its not fun anymore ? I'm sure the Classic WoW Fans would definitely be able to relate

    If there's no challenge then/ if its too easy, it won't be fun anymore
    So in youre eyes hardcore is fun? I am sorry but there are people who have lifes beside mmo’s they don’t have 16 hours of gameplay time a day.

    i think an mmo needs different elements to keep the fun factor.
  • I agree, the games PvE content from general mob AI, dungeons and raids/world bosses should be challenging.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2018
    @Okieboo
    You misunderstand - it is not at all " how i see it " - rather its a warning 
    • There will be some players who will be willing to put that much time into the Game; so, if Ashes' was designed to be easy, don't be surprised if every PvE-aspect & PvP-aspect of the Game is easily exploited - which will ruin the MMO from the start
    • Don't be surprised if some Nodes are already in Stage 5 or 6 in less than a Month ( or less than 2-3 weeks )  if Ashes' was designed to be easy
    ... and I don't even like the HardCore Aspect ... In fact, I've stated multiple times in other Threads, that i prefer to Explore

    The HardCore Style is (one of the things )what drives players to stay
    • SWG had hardcore Crafting, right ? Wasn't that the best Crafting System ?
    • If combat is easy to get into ... but has a Tough learning curve via having the Players figure-out combinations, abilities being found in the Open-World as opposed to a Trainer that just so-happens to give abilities  ... never having any other purpose other than just to give Abilities to players who rushed to levels ...
    • What if combat were more* technical on " in-game Physics " ? And HitBoxes via Beams  ? Character Model Physics interaction with Ability/ Attack Physics ? What about Character Model Physics interaction with Environmental Objects ? Anything that'll make the Player wonder - something that'll allow the Player to delve into it further
    •  Sure they'll be different avenues to take due to Horizontal Progression, but it still proves my point
    And the fact that Ashes of Creation is favoring SandBox-elements only makes this "warning" all the more dire ... because it could break the Game if its ignored/ neglected

    Okieboo said:
    " ... i think an mmo needs different elements to keep the fun factor. "

     ^ I agree 100% with this , but the "HardCore"/ Difficulty needs to be introduced at some point
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2018
    Okieboo said:
    " ... I am sorry but there are people who have lifes beside mmo’s they don’t have 16 hours of gameplay time a day ... "
    My idea of fun is being able to explore other avenues of the MMO
     ( which does include open-world exploration :3 ) so as long as LvL & Gear doesn't solely-dictate the Victor of a PvE Engagement & PvP Engagement 

    ( i.e. more skill-based , this would open the possibilities of 2v1 and 3v1 not being too punishing for the Player who is facing-off against 2-3 other Players - giving that One Player  a chance to defend and/or survive through escaping  via ability usage and/or the environment ... depending on how thats set-up ... and possibly surviving/ escaping in other ways

    for example .. what if there were Quick Sand in the open-world ? Something within  the Environment itself that could be considered dangerous ? (not an NPC) And what if those chasing you/ trying to PK you have no clue about it ? )

    what i said ...
    Eragale said:
    " ... If there's no challenge then/ if its too easy, it won't be fun anymore. "
    has nothing to do with 16 hours a day... rather its referencing a fatal Error of BDO and other MMOs that lack PvE ... rather something to take note of - being careful/ cautious of having an MMO easier than a Multi-Player-Console-Game  

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2018
    IMO the gear motivates you to play more. It's the second thing that makes you do pvp (you know you have an advantage over other players), the first one is to be able to kill the other player.

    And by the way, the PVP gear should not make a player kill another one shoting him, the higher you go with the gear should only give you more survive-ability, not damage (more HP not more damage, this was in WOW vanilla).

    If you take out the pvp gear, there will be no target to do PVP , maybe ranks but i don;t think it;s enough. So, you do PVP for gear and statistics (achevements)

    PVP should be a part of PVE.
    Why do i say that: If you want only PVE because you like ti do mindless grind (some players like that), and you don;t want to do PVP, join a team that can offer you protection whyle you do PVE. This was the base mechanics in Lineage 2. The high end farming zones yould be contested by guilds. 
    The most powerful guild could hold alone one farm zone. One PVP team guarded the PVE teams and the gear was splited (this gives a tremendous guild/team target). 
    This made the server a guild PVP/PVE arena brawl all the time. It was intese, it made guilds like families, they had the same target as a team, all help each other get gear and be a power on the server.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2018
    Okieboo said:
    Eragale said:
    @Okieboo
    You'd rather have it too easy to where its not fun anymore ? I'm sure the Classic WoW Fans would definitely be able to relate

    If there's no challenge then/ if its too easy, it won't be fun anymore
    So in youre eyes hardcore is fun? I am sorry but there are people who have lifes beside mmo’s they don’t have 16 hours of gameplay time a day.

    i think an mmo needs different elements to keep the fun factor.

    Think of it this way, in a hardcore game, the casual player can do something (it might not compete with the hardcore players, but he can teamup with the casual ones), but in a simple game, the hardcore players leave (because they don't have anything to do).

    Hardcore players pay for the game more (the want  vanity stuff). They are the backbone of the game.
  • Eragale said:

    • How much emphasis should Gear have on deciding the Victor of a PvP Engagement & PvE Engagement ?
    It should be based on skills not on gear.
    This is what non-persistent and semi-persistent online games are for.

    Persistent games specifically fill a "niche" where players activities and the proceeds from those activities accrue over time to make the player better at those activities.

    A character with more blacksmithing experience is better at blacksmithing than characters with less.

    Gear is much the same as this. Rather than being experience that has been collected from the players activities to make the character better at that specific thing, it is items that have been collected from the players activities to make the character better at that specific thing.

    Skill absolutely should play a part. In terms of 1v1 PvP, skill should be the third most important factor behind class (in terms of a rock/paper/scissors system) and then gear second.

    If you want an online game that puts skill first, look for an online first person shooter - not an MMORPG.
  • @Noaani
    MMOFPS are often plague with aim-bots. And the 1st two MMOFPS i can think of is DarkFall ... and i think ESO also uses FPS style. But i don't like aimbots, the risk of coming across aimbots in MMOFPS are too high and some devs don't try to fix the problem for stuff like that
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2018
    Eragale said:
    @Noaani
    MMOFPS are often plague with aim-bots. And the 1st two MMOFPS i can think of is DarkFall ... and i think ESO also uses FPS style. But i don't like aimbots, the risk of coming across aimbots in MMOFPS are too high and some devs don't try to fix the problem for stuff like that
    Both of these games put a bigger value on gear than on skill.

    Any persistent game will.

    However, if an individual shys away from online FPS games because of a dislike of aim-bots and such, that same individual should be hoping for any MMORPG they want to play to have no more than a moderate level of skill involved.

    If there is any more than that, those same aim-bots will be put to use in Ashes.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2018
    @_Tex_
    Glad i've seen your perspective on it balancing Gear, Skill and LvL. For starters, Intrepid has confirmed that they'll only PvE Gear - and no PvP Gear. However, i do recall PvP gear that used to exist in SWTOR ... so i can kinda relate.

    Despite this you example of PvP Gear in Classic WoW via
    _Tex_ said:
    " ... the higher you go ...  the gear should only give you more survive-ability, not damage (more HP not more damage, this was in WOW vanilla). ... "
    this can definitely fit with Ashes of Creation since Intrepid has confirmed of trying to make Crafting-System (very) similar to SWG Crafting. So depending on the Materials you use for an identical Gear-piece .. it could very well* be just an increase in HP + Suitability. Of course, you'd have options. it won't technically be PvP-Gear ... but it'll still be* another type of Gear that you could feel more comfortable with as you travel in the Open-World. And it should feel very similar to it.

    From what what i can tell, you think balancing Gear, LvL and Skill as
    1. Gear slightly, but negligibly above Skill
    2. Skill being a close 2nd to Gear
    3. LvL being substantially lower than Gear & Skill 
    Am i right ? 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2018
    Indeed.
    The gear must give you a edge mostly.
    For example: PVE as well as PVP, the HP of the gear gives you more time to correct your mistakes. In PVE you can do well with lower gear if you have the skill and more if you do. Imagine you taking agro, in staid of being oneshot because you did a mistake (overagro or positioning) you can stay alive and help the group than being dead, resulting in a succesful raid.

    This applies to PVP, the more HP you have, the more players you can fight at a time (sometimes you are being focused). This gives your healers more time to get you up.

    Soaking (HP tanking) is the term if i'm not mistaking.

    The gear should be the same for PVP and PVE imo. But you may aquire it from PVE and/or PVP.
    As i said before, in Lineage 2 you did PVP at the PVE zones. Everyone was farming one gear only because it helps you do anything in the game.
    Maybe you are a PVE hardcore and at a point in time, you want to/discover that you lie PVP. It should be easy to switch to PVP from PVE, you farmed years for that gear and it would be a waist of tie to take it from scratch to do PVP.

    Once again, i say gear with HP only because in most MMOs, the higher gear player can instantly trashes you (some times oneshot). This discourages players to try and fight them, limiting the game play and causing ragequit (WOW, Archeage, BDO and Lineage 2 where like this).
    The longer the fight, the more skill counts more. They must grind their HP to win, not press 3 keys and kill someone.
  • It almost sounds like the people in this thread want all players to be on level playing ground regardless of work put in. I highly disagree with that mentality. If someone puts in 4hrs a day, and I put in 4hrs a week, I don't want to be even close to competitive with that person. They should have some clear advantage over me.

    Isn't gear one of the biggest reasons we play the game? We are all looking for development of some kind right? We want development for our characters. In most MMOs, that comes in 2 common forms: 1. The level you are on (whether it be character or skill). 2. The weapons and armor you have on your body. If you take away the development of your gear by making lvl1 gear = lvl25 gear, then what is the point of obtaining it in the first place? My wooden training sword should not be 90% as strong as your warhammer forged in the belly of a volcano, and certainly shouldn't be able to bash another player as efficiently. Gear matters people. It should influence PVP... Should it determine 100% the outcome, no, but your character progression should matter significantly imo. 
  • " ... In most MMOs ... "
    " Most MMOs " are only WoW Clones - there's enough WoW Clones for ThemePark MMOs Players to play on - the mindset of your entire post is gated by a ThemePark POV

    You want Gear & LvL as #1 priority:
    • So if i'm MAX LvL , i have Best-in-Slot Gear. and i decided to PK a group of LvL 1s  ... you think they'll be any skill involved in that ? 
    • This means i could literally just remain idle and watch as ... " the weak little lowbies " do nothing as i slaughter their friend(s)  .... and  that's mainly because Gear has too much emphasis in a scenario like this
    And this type of Priority won't work.
     I'd like to delve into this topic further, but its best to until more info is revealed
    but i will say this

    ... i never said that a LvL 1 Player's Gear should be near a  LvL 25 Player's Gear. The Player(s) LvL 1 should have some defensive/evasive abilities  to escape/ survive as opposed to insta-death due to Gear & LvL .. especially where Open-World PvP is present. 

    When i say " Skill " ... it has nothing to do with Gear nor LvL. Rather it has "something" to do on a fundamental-level. As to how technical combat can be. And that partially has to do with how they approach Action-Combat

    In a nutshell, you're analyzing one piece of the Puzzle ... when the whole picture hasn't even formed yet. And even if so ... its still from the POV of a ThemePark MMO Playstyle.

    Hence:
     "I'd like to delve into this topic further, but it's best to wait until more info is revealed"

  • Noaani said:
    " ... If there is any more than that, those same aim-bots will be put to use in Ashes ... "
    not sure what you mean with this part. But when you say " Moderate Level of Skill " ... i suppose that would depend on the " Level of Action Combat "
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2018
    It almost sounds like the people in this thread want all players to be on level playing ground regardless of work put in. I highly disagree with that mentality. If someone puts in 4hrs a day, and I put in 4hrs a week, I don't want to be even close to competitive with that person. They should have some clear advantage over me.

    Isn't gear one of the biggest reasons we play the game? We are all looking for development of some kind right? We want development for our characters. In most MMOs, that comes in 2 common forms: 1. The level you are on (whether it be character or skill). 2. The weapons and armor you have on your body. If you take away the development of your gear by making lvl1 gear = lvl25 gear, then what is the point of obtaining it in the first place? My wooden training sword should not be 90% as strong as your warhammer forged in the belly of a volcano, and certainly shouldn't be able to bash another player as efficiently. Gear matters people. It should influence PVP... Should it determine 100% the outcome, no, but your character progression should matter significantly imo. 
    Ofcourse the gear is important. We spend all our time to get better gear.
    I said just to increase HP not damage.
    In a duel if u have more HP, you are likely to win. The other player has the half of what you have, meaning that he needs to do double damage to take you down compared to you. Now, if you have double the HP and he has half and better skill, he has a bigger chance to kill you, but still, it will be harder.
  • Eragale said:
    Noaani said:
    " ... If there is any more than that, those same aim-bots will be put to use in Ashes ... "
    not sure what you mean with this part. But when you say " Moderate Level of Skill " ... i suppose that would depend on the " Level of Action Combat "
    The more action focused skills in Ashes will make use of a reticle.

    If there is a significant advantage to using action focused skills in terms of character output, and if that advantage is dependent on accurate aiming, there are people that will use aim-bots.

    I didn't think I was being cryptic at all, to be honest.
  • Eragale said:

    ... i never said that a LvL 1 Player's Gear should be near a  LvL 25 Player's Gear. The Player(s) LvL 1 should have some defensive/evasive abilities  to escape/ survive as opposed to insta-death due to Gear & LvL .. especially where Open-World PvP is present. 

    When i say " Skill " ... it has nothing to do with Gear nor LvL. Rather it has "something" to do on a fundamental-level. As to how technical combat can be. And that partially has to do with how they approach Action-Combat

    In a nutshell, you're analyzing one piece of the Puzzle ... when the whole picture hasn't even formed yet. And even if so ... its still from the POV of a ThemePark MMO Playstyle.
    Sorry, completely whiffed on the point of your messages. I come from EverQuest and WoW, so I only know of the fast progression and item scaling. I wouldn't even know what it would feel like to play a game where I progress that slowly. 

    I like the idea of low lvls being able to escape, but still not sold on them standing a fighting chance against me. And even if they can escape, all I have to do is auto-run in their direction until I catch them again. The escape would make the chase much more fun imo. Not saying I would ever do that. I don't bully. But escapability would add some thrill to killing noobs. 

    IDK what to expect from this game tbh. I just want to explore it and see what the game has hidden. The PvP doesn't interest me so much as the PvE. 
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