DPS Meter Megathread

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Dygz

noaani wrote: »

Once again, this is where the disconnect here is. You are talking about a tool for power players, but from a non power player perspective. It's like someone not at all interested in RP throwing in their thoughts on a tool specifically designed for RP, or a non-crafter throwing their thoughts in on a tool specifically designed for crafters.

Not every tool is supposed to be for every player. They could well add a system to keep track of in game achievements, and that is something I will never even look at - it is also something I will never post much about as I know others will make use of it as a feature in the game. If the game is going to support the achiever player, then they absolutely should have a system by which to track achievements.

A DPS meter is a tool that is not supposed to be for every player. If any individual wants to run groups or raids without it, that absolutely should be a path that is open to them. On the flip side though, if the game is to support the power player, then it should provide tools that the power player needs.

I'm talking about a tool that the devs are planning not to support.
And I'm sharing my view that since the devs plan on not supporting tools like DPS meters, I hope they design and implement mechanics with plenty of support for us to be able to synergize party-member abilities in a more immersive, RP-friendly matter.
We'll have to see how well the power players power-play without support for DPS meters. Apparently, they will play differently in Ashes than they do with DPS meter support.

Godbrithil

I very much hope that a Mod API will be published. In my opinion, a Damage Meter alone is indispensable.

If this creates a class society that only takes with it if it can produce a certain damage output - then it's not the damage meter, but the community.

And even without the Damage Meter, the community will exclude "weak" people.
But you should give people enough freedom to decide for themselves if and which mods they want to use.

unknownsystemerror

They have said multiple times over the last two years when asked that they have no plans to release the API into the wild. That way leads to hacks and madness. If there is a QOL issue they feel is important, they will add the relevant functionality to the game. Those that think they know better and try to use third-party addons have only themselves to blame when Intrepid takes action on their accounts.

Noaani

azathoth wrote: »

I understand that a DPS/ACT is a tool for a specific play set, and that not everyone will want to use the tool. However, when other players require you to report out what the tool says in order to do group content, then it is a tool that will be required.

I totally agree, however...

I have played many games where pick up raids generally won't let you join unless you can link the achievement you get for clearing the zone the raid is going after. Even in games with DPS meters (and even with full support for Advanced Combat Tracker), people often prefer a yes/no as to whether a player has completed a zone before taking them, and linking the zones achievement is often the easiest way to prove this.

I don't see how this kind of abuse of the achievement system is any different to any possible abuse of an in game combat tracker.

I'm not saying either of these should be removed from the game, I'm saying that both should be in the game, but in a way that reduces the possible abuses.

If a combat tracker was a part of the guild system as I've suggested, pick up or casual raids have no reason to ask what your DPS even is - you can give them a number and if it sounds about right for your class, they have no way of ever checking it. To me, this is how it should be - pick up/casual raids are the entry point in to raiding for many people, and so they should have a low entry barrier.

Raiding guilds would look at new members that have not been in guilds using it as a project rather more than anything else. If someone applies to your guild that hasn't used it, then you take them on with the understanding from both parties that there may be an amount of training involved. This isn't a bad thing - most mid tier raid guilds are happy to provide this training.

However, absolute top end guilds may refuse applicants without having been in such guilds. Thing is, top end guilds like this require proof of raid success anyway - and people with the kind of raid success needed to apply for such guilds will themselves be in guilds using the guild based combat tracker.

To me, this is the perfect solution that totally prevents abuse of a combat tracker built in to Ashes, but allows those that want one and know how to use one the ability to have access to it if they so wish.

dygz wrote: »

And I'm sharing my view that since the devs plan on not supporting tools like DPS meters, I hope they design and implement mechanics with plenty of support for us to be able to synergize party-member abilities in a

I don't see why they should support RP players above power players.

I want both to be equally supported - either support power player on raids, or don't support RP'ers on raids.

Well, actually, I just want both supported - I don't want neither supported.

unknownsystemerror wrote: »

They have said multiple times over the last two years when asked that they have no plans to release the API into the wild. That way leads to hacks and madness. If there is a QOL issue they feel is important, they will add the relevant functionality to the game. Those that think they know better and try to use third-party addons have only themselves to blame when Intrepid takes action on their accounts.

Despite my insistence on wanting a combat tracker of some fashion, I am as happy as anyone else that Steven won't release the API, or even have combat logs exported (which is actually potentially as powerful a tool in the hands of a good developer).

However, what I am afraid of is that if BOTH Ashes becomes quite popular AND there is no support for an in game combat tracker, someone WILL make something.

Even something as simple as scanning the screen for information can provide entire raids with an advantage in both PvE and PvP. Every game I have ever played lists the damage dealt to and by everyone in your raid in a chat window. This is possible to scan in game, and the information it provides can then be exported to something like Advanced Combat Tracker and analyzed. As that doesn't interact with the game client in any way, game developers and publishers are unable to detect this kind of application. If you don't know a third party add on exists, you don't know which accounts to take action on.

To me, assuming this game is as successful as we all hope it will be, there are two options.

The first is for Intrepid to put in a combat tracker that they have full control over, that all players have access to if they wish to have access to and that gives players enough to make it not worth the energy to develop any additional tools. The second option is to leave it to the players that want such a tool to develop something that even Intrepid have no real control over and no way of detecting.

Azathoth

Idk, showing an achievement that says you were able to clear a specific content I think is less intrusive than someone monitoring a player's play-style and then telling them they are "spec'd" wrong or that they chose a less than optimal progression. Regardless of how I built my character I could potentially still clear the content.

I don't see asking for the achievement as being as bad. If you haven't done the particular raid, you probably don't want to do it the first time with those that are there to power through.

Seems like a better response imo.

Dygz

noaani wrote: »

I don't see why they should support RP players above power players.

I want both to be equally supported - either support power player on raids, or don't support RP'ers on raids.

Well, actually, I just want both supported - I don't want neither supported.

I'm not sure if we're using RP in the same manner, but...
One of Steven's goals is to bring more of the RPG back into the concept of MMORPG.
Power-player raids will be supported - just not with DPS meters and combat trackers.
It's akin to not supporting PvE-focused players with PvE-only servers.
Those playstyles will have to make adjustments.
I expect power-player raiders to still be power-player raiders in Ashes - just without DPS meters and combat trackers.
And, I expect that will significantly reduce people getting kicked from groups for not having the expected DPS output.
I expect how people join "raid guilds" is going to be significantly different in Ashes, specifically because raiding is not just something that becomes a focus at max level because there's not much else to do... and because raids aren't just static content that can be repeated over and over and over again to improve DPS scores.

noaani wrote: »

[W]hat I am afraid of is that if BOTH Ashes becomes quite popular AND there is no support for an in game combat tracker, someone WILL make something.

People will definitely make something. Whether they will be able to use that something without being banned is something we shall have to wait to see.

BlackBrony

Mostly I have one issue, and it has been mentioned already: "go read guide about boss".

And that's my major issue with DPS Meters. You have to:

1- Read your class guide, which will be the most efficient at DPS, which will take out any type of input from you, and exploration. Eventually you will just press buttons and achieve highest DPS, having no fun or idea of what you're doing.
2- Read boss guide. You won't figure out anything by yourself.

So, how does a combat tracker help the community?

Omg, you lazy, you're not running CookieButter Spec 1548, you suck, kick from group.
And I will tell you that people WON'T care about your DPS if you don't have top spec, they just won't recruit to party

Blackhearted

The only thing ACTs do is make things easier.
I dont think anyone would go on using forbidden addon and being open about it.
It may give a slight advantage theorycrafting things but u would be risking a ban.

unknownsystemerror

A large assumption that many people here seem to be making is that everyone will have access to the same content on a regular basis that will lead to "farming." If Intrepid goes with what they have stated in the past for how they envision content to work, many people will not ever see particular content before it has moved on or changed. Combined with the boss mechanics variation/randomness and other factors posting an achievement or meter information will not be an indication of ability to do content successfully a second time. The progression idea of moving from Rock Candy Mountain to Taffy River to Squirrel Apocalypse may happen on a particular server due to a perfect storm of circumstance, but will not be accessible to everyone due to geographics and other factors. Will we see the same stuff for the first good long while? Sure, but as more and more content is added to their tables to appear under specific circumstances, the "It is Tuesday at 8pm PST, time for my crew to raid Sugarland for the 20th time!" will not be seen. Sugarland will change and morph over time, so when the raid enters and find out the spiders have displaced the undead and a whole new boss is there that they didn't plan to engage. Not every server is going to have static zones where stuff does not change and just because your guild thinks they are owed access to a particular dungeon or raid, does not mean the people that live there are going to let you go waltzing through their territory to pillage as you please. The idiocy of spamming "LF players to go on our raid. We are going for Blessed Blade of the Windseeker run, must have Blessed Blade of the Windseeker achievement to join!" should not develop into a thing.

Dygz

unknownsystemerror wrote: »

Sugarland will change and morph over time, so when the raid enters and find out the spiders have displaced the undead and a whole new boss is there that they didn't plan to engage. Not every server is going to have static zones where stuff does not change and just because your guild thinks they are owed access to a particular dungeon or raid, does not mean the people that live there are going to let you go waltzing through their territory to pillage as you please. The idiocy of spamming "LF players to go on our raid. We are going for Blessed Blade of the Windseeker run, must have Blessed Blade of the Windseeker achievement to join!" should not develop into a thing.

Exactly.
And I'd much rather focus on how we get the most bang from the buck with our abilities v spiders and poison/venom rather than v undead and disease, than check to make sure we have the highest DPS possible.

Azryil

Mechanics should matter and should be overall more important than DPS. However if DPS is too low the fight will last longer and this will tax healers ultimately leading to a loss to attrition. Additionally having DPS check allows for a wider array of possible mechanics to deal with. i would love to see adds spawn that if they aren't killed fast enough they cast a spell the debuff the party or explodes causing high damage potentially resulting in a wipe.

BlackBrony

arzosah wrote: »

Mechanics should matter and should be overall more important than DPS. However if DPS is too low the fight will last longer and this will tax healers ultimately leading to a loss to attrition. Additionally having DPS check allows for a wider array of possible mechanics to deal with. i would love to see adds spawn that if they aren't killed fast enough they cast a spell the debuff the party or explodes causing high damage potentially resulting in a wipe.

This has been done lots of times, it's nothing new. Focus adds, kill them fast.
The problem is when everything depends on DPS.
I'd love a raid where DPS doesn't matter, but you still depend on time, avoiding rage timer. Maybe execute mechanics that are not related to DPS, where DPS won't matter as long as you don't fail at certain mechanics.

That imo, sounds a lot harder than learning a rotation. Why? Because eventually everyone will be using add ons to let you know when to use your Big CD once that X debuff is active on the enemy.

Azryil

zorish wrote: »

That imo, sounds a lot harder than learning a rotation. Why? Because eventually everyone will be using add ons to let you know when to use your Big CD once that X debuff is active on the enemy.

Based on current information Addon aren't going to exist, and I hope IS sticks to that.

BlackBrony

arzosah wrote: »

zorish wrote: »

That imo, sounds a lot harder than learning a rotation. Why? Because eventually everyone will be using add ons to let you know when to use your Big CD once that X debuff is active on the enemy.

Based on current information Addon aren't going to exist, and I hope IS sticks to that.

Well, all of the hardcore players are asking for one. Will Steven resist them? I don't know

SaltySudd

I personally really enjoy having DPS meters. For me it's a great and quick way to see how I perform in different situations and to see where I need to improve.

Wandering Mist

zorish wrote: »

arzosah wrote: »

zorish wrote: »

That imo, sounds a lot harder than learning a rotation. Why? Because eventually everyone will be using add ons to let you know when to use your Big CD once that X debuff is active on the enemy.

Based on current information Addon aren't going to exist, and I hope IS sticks to that.

Well, all of the hardcore players are asking for one. Will Steven resist them? I don't know

I doubt it. If the game is designed properly with a customisable UI there shouldn't be any need for addons. In theory no game should require addons to play normally, and usually addons and mods are only implemented to fix problems that the game has.

Dygz

arzosah wrote: »

Mechanics should matter and should be overall more important than DPS. However if DPS is too low the fight will last longer and this will tax healers ultimately leading to a loss to attrition. Additionally having DPS check allows for a wider array of possible mechanics to deal with. i would love to see adds spawn that if they aren't killed fast enough they cast a spell the debuff the party or explodes causing high damage potentially resulting in a wipe.

1: In general, I care about the journey; not how long the battle takes - but I am a hardcore time player and I have time as a luxury.

2: I don’t understand how the length of time will tax healers in Ashes combat. Especially given the wide variety of healing options available.
And the wide variety of ways to avoid damage.

3: Adds spawning within a span of time typically is not about seconds, rather it’s about minutes.
And the strategies for factoring in bursts of power should be more focused on weapon ability combos which lead to ultimates, in addition to augments and class ability combos - rather than relying on DPS checks.
DPS is a byproduct. Shouldn’t really be necessary as a focus. Burst damage will be a class focus, but it shouldn’t need to be gauged by the second to be highly effective.

Azryil

dygz wrote: »

1: In general, I care about the journey; not how long the battle takes - but I am a hardcore time player and I have time as a luxury.

2: I don’t understand how the length of time will tax healers in Ashes combat. Especially given the wide variety of healing options available.
And the wide variety of ways to avoid damage.

3: Adds spawning within a span of time typically is not about seconds, rather it’s about minutes.
And the strategies for factoring in bursts of power should be more focused on weapon ability combos which lead to ultimates, in addition to augments and class ability combos - rather than relying on DPS checks.
DPS is a byproduct. Shouldn’t really be necessary as a focus. Burst damage will be a class focus, but it shouldn’t need to be gauged by the second to be highly effective.

1. If you don't care about how long the fight lasts that's great, but when it comes to progressing on a fight I'd rather not wipe to attrition 15 minutes into a fight, that's just frustrating and demoralizing.
2. The longer the fight lasts, the more mana the healers have to consume, especially in fight where group wide AoE damage is unavoidable.
3. Normally on encounters where adds are a priority. it either because the adds perform some action that if they are not killed quickly enough will wipe the raid, or adds spawn periodically throughout the fight and will overwhelm the raid if they are not dealt with. The former needs to be dealt with in a matter of seconds. The latter depends on how quickly they spawn and how well your party is able to deal with them being alive for long periods of time. In either case the quicker they're dealt with the quicker the dps can return to damaging the boss.

Azryil

I think having some puzzle encounters where DPS is irrelevant can be fun, but the vast majority of encounters should have an element of dps. Boss mechanics should be challenging, maintaining strong damage output while avoiding those mechanics makes playing a DPS class challenging.

Dygz

1: Then learn to git gud. Easily done without DPS meters.

2: The more what healers have to consume? Mana gets replenished. In Ashes, healers will be doing other stuff besides just healing anyways.
I dunno why there would be unavoidable AoEs if the Tanks have Cover. That says to me that the Tanks should be more concerned about shielding the group than DPS. And I wouldn't need a DPS meter or combat tracker to determine that.

3: I have encountered adds that need to handled quickly - always in a matter of minutes; not in a matter of seconds. Also, that should not necessarily mean those adds have to be killed to be taken care of - especially in a game like Ashes which has abilities like Bulwark and Ice Prison.
In Ashes, where Clerics will be dealing damage rather than just being focused on healing, we shouldn't have to be thinking about damage in terms of seconds. People will focus on dealing with adds quickly so that they can quickly return to damaging the boss in any case.

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