DPS Meter Megathread

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Ghoosty

dygz wrote: »

"It doesn't really depend - and especially shouldn't depend on respeccing in an RPG."

Then 2nd part I totally agree if respeccing is necessary it is design issue. But It really depend on if the ability is accessible for that spec, but they do not want to use it for RP reason. You can't expect that the developers can think of every situation when the player do not want to use a useful skill. If the the icemage do not want to use repel spells. No problem, the tank has reduce elemental resistance skill, but the tank said. I will not use it, I am a mighty warrior, I do not use spell-like skills. This definitely not design issue.

"Which of our abilities enhance types of abilities in the other classes. Which of my abilities enhance the damage of other abilities, which of my abilities add a debuff to the mob(s) in and simultaneously enhance the damage of abilities from a different class. Do I have roots and snares that will add to the damage dealt by a Summoners minions? Does my aggro ability enhance the damage of a teammate attacking from stealth?
Those are the types of strategies we should be learning and looking for - rather than relying on combat trackers."

Believe me, the persons who want ACT do not want to remove these options. Actually they really want to use them, but they would like to see that it worth for that fight. Once we can use one ability. I have to chose to attack or I use an ability what increase my teammate's damage. My attack deal 100 damage. My other ability increase my team mate's damage with 25%. If that guy/guys deal damage of 500 with my skill it is indifferent to use. If he do more than 500, it is a good idea to use that skill. If it is less, we should not use, it does not worth. This is what we would like to know. Of course you can make a few try blindly and see what happened, but if we just have the total team's dps, we will not know if that helped or some other thing happened.

"Sometimes, it's just not possible to win with the group you are with,..Combat trackers do not inherently result in a winning strategy."

I know that not always possible to with with a group, and I also know that the combat trackers will not mean winning strategy, but the combat tracker help to find out if it worth to continue with that team or not. It also helps to find out how we should change. It saves lot of time.

Noaani

dygz wrote: »

Buffs and debuffs and knowing how to take advantage of them to aid the performance of your teammates is part of helping individuals perform better. As is teaching individuals how to do so.
When the group decides that more healing is needed, we shouldn't just be thinking that the High Priest is "underperforming", rather we should be determining how the Soulbow, Soul Weaver and/or Highsword can assist that High Priest.
It might not be that the issue is that a Necromancer is "underperforming" - it might be that it would be better to do a group Summons.
The concept of DPS meters and combat trackers assessing "underperformance" is precisely the problem.

See, you don't get it.

The individual players on your raid have the responsibility to the other 39 people present to know how to play their class, and the raid leader has the responsibility to know what to reasonably expect from that class under the situation they are in.

No raid leader worth their spot on a raid would think that a healer is under performing if they are doing the most healing on the raid. I'm not even going to touch "When the group decides that more healing is needed", as that is not something I can talk about without using "all that tells me is - once again - that this is a player that doesn't know what they are talking about, yet continues to talk regardless".

No raid leader worth their spot on a raid would think that a Necromancer is under performing without taking in to account whether they are or are not able to do a group summons. The raid leader either knows they can or knows they can't do a group summons. Any assessment of their performance will take that in to account. However, if a player is in a substantially below par situation for their class, chances are the raid leader won't even look at how well they are doing (raids don't take substantially below par setups to challenging content).

---

You are looking at this whole thing from the perspective of amateur raiding, Friday Night Warriors, rather than from the perspective of people that know what they are doing.

Given how well you have proven your understanding of the topic, that is more than fair to expect from you. What you should be thinking to yourself is that raiders - REAL raiders - spend far longer thinking about this kind of thing than you do, and so know all the pitfalls and benefits that you could ever possibly think up.

If you want to make an argument that a combat tracker should be kept out of the hands of people that don't know how to use it, that's fine. Not only do I agree with that sentiment, I've actually gone one better and proposed a method for how that could work.

However, if you want to argue that a combat tracker should not be present at all, you would do well to explain why people that know how to make full use of such a tool should not be allowed access to one.

Dygz

ghoosty wrote: »

It really depend on if the ability is accessible for that spec, but they do not want to use it for RP reason. You can't expect that the developers can think of every situation when the player do not want to use a useful skill. If the the icemage do not want to use repel spells. No problem, the tank has reduce elemental resistance skill, but the tank said. I will not use it, I am a mighty warrior, I do not use spell-like skills. This definitely not design issue.

We mostly agree. But the warrior refusing to use "spell-like skills" is not what we're talking about.
To truly know how problematic that would be in Ashes, we would need to know what the specific skills are and which augments and which weapon abilities might compensate for not using "spell-like skills".
Maybe the Tank considers Impale and Righteous Fury to be "spell-like skills", so instead of using the skills from the primary archetype to launch "magic spears", the Guardian attaches the augment versions to Shield Bash or Shield Might. There should be plenty of augments from the available melee secondary archetypes that compensate for the Tank not using "spell-like skills". And even more among the augments from racial, social organization and Node augments. Especially from among the arsenal of Military Node augments.
The devs don't have to think of every situation where a player doesn't want to use a "useful" skill.

ghoosty wrote: »

Believe me, the persons who want ACT do not want to remove these options. Actually they really want to use them, but they would like to see that it worth for that fight. Once we can use one ability. I have to chose to attack or I use an ability what increase my teammate's damage. My attack deal 100 damage. My other ability increase my team mate's damage with 25%. If that guy/guys deal damage of 500 with my skill it is indifferent to use. If he do more than 500, it is a good idea to use that skill. If it is less, we should not use, it does not worth. This is what we would like to know. Of course you can make a few try blindly and see what happened, but if we just have the total team's dps, we will not know if that helped or some other thing happened.

People can figure out whether that significantly increases damage without relying on DPS meters or combat trackers. It either does or doesn't. And it will be evident by the effects on the targets' healthbar.
People who really want to use those tactics will know what they are before reaching max level.

ghoosty wrote: »

I know that not always possible to with with a group, and I also know that the combat trackers will not mean winning strategy, but the combat tracker help to find out if it worth to continue with that team or not. It also helps to find out how we should change. It saves lot of time.

For some people combat trackers help to find out whether it's worth it to continue with that team.
That is why the people against them are against them. Also, likely that the people who are against them don't really care about that kind of saved time.
DPS meters and combat trackers facilitating the drive to quickest, most efficient run is precisely what those in the anti camp want to avoid.

Dygz

noaani wrote: »

The individual players on your raid have the responsibility to the other 39 people present to know how to play their class, and the raid leader has the responsibility to know what to reasonably expect from that class under the situation they are in.

No. You don't get it.
Everyone on the raid should be striving to use their abilities to help each other defeat the challenges in the raid. It's not just up to the raid leader to what to reasonably expect from the class.
Again, this is especially true in Ashes, where each class has at least 15 different permutations - plus the variations resulting from racial, religious, social and Node augments and the weapon abilities on individual weapons.

noaani wrote: »

No raid leader worth their spot on a raid would think that a healer is under performing if they are doing the most healing on the raid. I'm not even going to touch "When the group decides that more healing is needed", as that is not something I can talk about without using "all that tells me is - once again - that this is a player that doesn't know what they are talking about, yet continues to talk regardless".

I didn't say anything about the healer doing the most healing on the raid. The example of a High Priest under-performing assumes that would be the specific High Priest on the raid who is under-performing, in comparison to the other High Priests or Cleric primary archetypes on the raid.
I expect a raid to have more than one High Priest or Cleric primary archetype.
But, thank you, Oh Mighty Pot.

noaani wrote: »

No raid leader worth their spot on a raid would think that a Necromancer is under performing without taking in to account whether they are or are not able to do a group summons. The raid leader either knows they can or knows they can't do a group summons. Any assessment of their performance will take that in to account. However, if a player is in a substantially below par situation for their class, chances are the raid leader won't even look at how well they are doing (raids don't take substantially below par setups to challenging content).

If the majority of group and raid leaders were that idyllic, the devs might be supportive of DPS meters and combat trackers.
No one is talking about substantially below par setups, as far as I know. Although, what constitutes a substantially subpar setup could be subjective.
Although, not taking someone along on a raid is a luxury we might not often have in Ashes.

noaani wrote: »

You are looking at this whole thing from the perspective of amateur raiding, Friday Night Warriors, rather than from the perspective of people that know what they are doing.

Given how well you have proven your understanding of the topic, that is more than fair to expect from you. What you should be thinking to yourself is that raiders - REAL raiders - spend far longer thinking about this kind of thing than you do, and so know all the pitfalls and benefits that you could ever possibly think up.

Riiiight. That's not at all an elitist perspective.

noaani wrote: »

However, if you want to argue that a combat tracker should not be present at all, you would do well to explain why people that know how to make full use of such a tool should not be allowed access to one.

Because the devs are not going to be trying to determine which players know how to "properly" use the tool and which don't. That's not rocket science.
The same is true of any tool that is banned. The people who feel they properly know how to use the tool while others don't are going to complain about the ban - of course.

Azathoth

I am not against ACT/DPS meters. I just don't think we need them and IS has chosen not to put them in Ashes, and I think they should stay true to that.

The main argument given for them, at least over the last few pages/days is that it somehow "allows" developers to develop more challenging content. That is only true if developers do not believe their players can perform optimally with practice.

"Without some sort of tool to tell you what went right and what went wrong, that "being challenged, failing and trying again" is all about guesswork and luck, not rising to a challenge."

That's not true. That is only true for players that rely on ACT/DPS meters. It sounds like you are saying that without an ACT/DPS telling you that a certain boss monster was resistance to fire the whole time you would never be able to figure it out, or if someone suggested not using fire because they noticed their damage was reduced, it would be "guesswork or luck." You literally want to try a dungeon once, then be told what resistances, attacks, etc. the boss monster has, prepare for that, try again and be done.
[Yes, I am assuming that after playing some time players would know what to expect by said fire damage and be able to know when it was weaker. If there is no on screen determination of damage done when attacking (hp bar/dmg numbers/etc) then perhaps an ACT/DPS should be implemented]

Why not wait for someone to post how to defeat the boss monster, do what they say, and move on? That would be the best way to save time and find out what all the resistances and attacks are.

This response is telling me that at least some players relying on ACT/DPS meters don't believe in "practice makes perfect" and that somehow without a tracker people would be unable to tell if their character was performing on par with usual, over par, or under par.

If ACT/DPS meters will be used to determine mob/boss weaknesses and strengths after one attempt, than I would be against them. Again, at that point, just look it up on a wiki after someone that "tried, failed, tried again and succeeded" posted what they did.

Ghoosty

dygz wrote: »

But the warrior refusing to use "spell-like skills" is not what we're talking about.

If you allow for an icemage to not use his available skills, you have to allow the warrior as well and for everybody.

dygz wrote: »

People can figure out whether that significantly increases damage without relying on DPS meters or combat trackers. It either does or doesn't. And it will be evident by the effects on the targets' healthbar.

I participated in many raids, even if we did the same, the boss's hp went down different way. From that it is very hard to find out what caused the difference. Sometimes I have a feeling that you never participated in a 25-40 persons raid.

dygz wrote: »

For some people combat trackers help to find out whether it's worth it to continue with that team.
That is why the people against them are against them. Also, likely that the people who are against them don't really care about that kind of saved time.

I am OK, that you like to fight a combat where you do not have chance to win. I do not like it. (Unless I am with good friends, but as I do not have 25-40 good friends, I do not have the possibility participate with them in a raid.)

dygz wrote: »

DPS meters and combat trackers facilitating the drive to quickest, most efficient run is precisely what those in the anti camp want to avoid.

1. I do not really care about the quickest way or the most efficient run, I just want to avoid the dead end street.
2. If somebody use it for that, I do not care about it. I suggest you the same. If it exists, you have the possibility to not use it. If it not exists I do not have the possibility to use it.

Ghoosty

azathoth wrote: »

This response is telling me that at least some players relying on ACT/DPS meters don't believe in "practice makes perfect" and that somehow without a tracker people would be unable to tell if their character was performing on par with usual, over par, or under par.

To be honest, I do not know without tracker. It come to my mind when I was new in MMORPG. I cleared the dungeons with PUG. Mostly without wipes. After I felt that I am strong enough I started to raiding. I found a nice guild. They bring me with them. I worked hard to make lot of damage. We killed the bosses, because the others were overgeared. Sometimes later, I had the same level of gear and the guild wanted to go for a harder boss. They brought me with them. After a few try they told me that my damage is not high enough. I did not understand I did very hard. I did not even know how they know that I was the weak-spot. So that night I left the raid team. After that we speak lot about an ACT and about some skill rotation etc. As I had the tool to measure myself, I saw immediately that I do something wrong. I found a play-style what fits for me. So I practice lot and not much later, I was among the best in the guild.
So I really believe in the 'practice makes perfect', but I know that without tracker, I can't even estimate my performance.

Dygz

ghoosty wrote: »

If you allow for an icemage to not use his available skills, you have to allow the warrior as well and for everybody.

Right. The example is an Ice Wizard not using spells from the Repel Wizard spec.
And that's coming from an example of a (Beastmaster) Hunter not using an ability from the Survival Hunter spec.
So, in the case of an Ashes Tank, it would be like a Guardian choosing not to use Spellshield augments even though combat trackers indicate that Spellshield augments are better than Guardian augments.

But, even if a Tank chose not to use Shield Bash, Cover and/or Bulwark, we should be able to compensate with characters using Tank augments.

ghoosty wrote: »

I participated in many raids, even if we did the same, the boss's hp went down different way. From that it is very hard to find out what caused the difference. Sometimes I have a feeling that you never participated in a 25-40 persons raid.

You don't have to be in a raid to determine whether a Necromancer's Zombies do more damage in a Shadow Caster's Shade. At max level, players should already be aware of that. And, it should be easy enough to see whether a hit did barely any damage or whether it did significant damage. We should expect to see synergies with the abilities of other players doing significant damage.
That's not going to change battle to battle even with boss dynamics in the Ashes design.

ghoosty wrote: »

I am OK, that you like to fight a combat where you do not have chance to win. I do not like it. (Unless I am with good friends, but as I do not have 25-40 good friends, I do not have the possibility participate with them in a raid.)

I don't know that it matters whether people like to fight a combat where they do not have a chance to win.
It's unlikely you will be able to win every battle. Especially in Ashes, there will be times when we can't win the battle and we will have to retreat, replan, and/or regroup as we figure out how to defeat the content.
Sometimes the best solution might be to "overgear".
In Ashes, it should be easier to find and make good friends to raid with since we will be defending our towns and cities from attacks alongside other citizens of the Node who are online when we're online... same for finding allies to help defend Node-related caravan runs.
Should also be easier to learn how to coordinate and complement the tactics they like to use with the abilities you like to use.

ghoosty wrote: »

1. I do not really care about the quickest way or the most efficient run, I just want to avoid the dead end street.
2. If somebody use it for that, I do not care about it. I suggest you the same. If it exists, you have the possibility to not use it. If it not exists I do not have the possibility to use it.

The Ashes devs are not including or supporting DPS meters or combat trackers, so... they will not officially exist.

Azryil

dygz wrote: »

The Ashes devs are not including or supporting DPS meters or combat trackers, so... they will not officially exist.

This thread really should just die at this point. All it is at this point is a couple people on each side that will never change their mind, and it's irrelevant since the devs don't plan on supporting it anyways.

Blackhearted

ghoosty wrote: »

2. If somebody use it for that, I do not care about it. I suggest you the same. If it exists, you have the possibility to not use it. If it not exists I do not have the possibility to use it.

ghoosty wrote: »

After that we speak lot about an ACT and about some skill rotation etc. As I had the tool to measure myself, I saw immediately that I do something wrong

We both know that if one exists everyone has to use it.

The reason Im against ACT is because it makes it very easy to find optimal setups. When you have ACT everyone can figure the optimal setup with ease. Ditching ACTs means its a challenge to players to figure out what to do and an asset to guild to have experimental players.
When ure raiding without ACT youre looking for reliable and smart players instead of those who can push buttons in certain order.

Ghoosty

arzosah wrote: »

dygz wrote: »

The Ashes devs are not including or supporting DPS meters or combat trackers, so... they will not officially exist.

This thread really should just die at this point. All it is at this point is a couple people on each side that will never change their mind, and it's irrelevant since the devs don't plan on supporting it anyways.

According to my knowledge they never stated that there will be no ACT. They just said something like:
"I don't believe the DPS meters are necessary. It might require more investigation to gather the information, but it won't be as wide spread as DPS meters and such tools. "
"DPS meter can have negative effects."
So my understanding that it is still not decided.

blackhearted wrote: »

We both know that if one exists everyone has to use it.

I am not sure about it. I played properly with WoW without any addons except an ACT.
In Diablo 3 I played well without AH.

Dygz

It's there in that first quote: DPS meters aren't necessary...the available info won't be like what's available in DPS meters and such tools.
But, you can believe what you wish until the game launches.

consultant

Well gents let just say some things

Seen posts about buffs and debuffs and abilities kind of hard to tell if they are worth without dps meters excluding buffs and debuffs thatare present all the time.

There is no way to get away from the best dps or hps or tank cookie cutter set up because of simulators a third pary tool that just uploads your toon and plays it for you with out all the graphics and sounds all number crunching.

No way to stop being cut from raid for underperformance it just takes a little longer to figure it out. More like trial and error

A lot of your posts seem redundant the only factor here is toxicity. On that point would like to say most of the toxicity from dps meters come from instant que not raiding from people that you know. Do not think dps meter would would make it too toxic cause you will be playing with people on your own server.

If the only thing done to prevent a toxic server was no dps meters it would not work.

Dygz

Toxic server covers a wide variety of issues.
I'm not aware of anyone arguing that no DPS meters would result in a non-toxic server.

It's not just a lack of DPS meters and combat trackers that will reduce dropping people who don't conform with cookie-cutter builds, it's that in conjunction with having 64 classes, augments from racial, religious, social and Node paths and advanced weapons having up to 5 weapon abilities - in addition to any class being able to use any weapon.
In addition to most raids being open world and dynamic rather than instanced and static.

Azryil

consultant wrote: »

A lot of your posts seem redundant the only factor here is toxicity. On that point would like to say most of the toxicity from dps meters come from instant que not raiding from people that you know. Do not think dps meter would would make it too toxic cause you will be playing with people on your own server.

That's not really true, it would likely compound an existing problem, however outside of fairly lenient guild groups there is always a chance that some players call out under performing players and push for their removal from the group. use of random queueing systems just allow for players to remove each other semi-anonymously.
However low DPS/HPS is only one factor of poor performance, in my experience taking avoidable damage or repeatably failing at boss mechanics are much more likely to get you removed from a group. More often than not low DPS only get people booted if that results in failing DPS checks or extending the boss fight longer than necessary.

Azathoth

consultant wrote: »

Well gents let just say some things

Seen posts about buffs and debuffs and abilities kind of hard to tell if they are worth without dps meters excluding buffs and debuffs thatare present all the time.

There is no way to get away from the best dps or hps or tank cookie cutter set up because of simulators a third pary tool that just uploads your toon and plays it for you with out all the graphics and sounds all number crunching.

No way to stop being cut from raid for underperformance it just takes a little longer to figure it out. More like trial and error

A lot of your posts seem redundant the only factor here is toxicity. On that point would like to say most of the toxicity from dps meters come from instant que not raiding from people that you know. Do not think dps meter would would make it too toxic cause you will be playing with people on your own server.

If the only thing done to prevent a toxic server was no dps meters it would not work.

This is another thing I don't get. If players are so adamant about needing a tool to play the game the best they can, and are so sure they would use one even if IS doesn't implement one, than why push for one in Ashes?

Clearly, everyone on this thread that believes an ACT/DPS meter is required to play the game at their best plans on using one rather or not one is implemented.

Noaani

azathoth wrote: »

I am not against ACT/DPS meters. I just don't think we need them and IS has chosen not to put them in Ashes, and I think they should stay true to that.

Just a few days ago, I saw some progress on a program.

In order to make this program run, you use an Elgato capture card to capture everything on screen (or on a secondary screen, would work better).

This program then analyzes that feed for text - at the moment it is just looking through combat text that can be sent to your in game chat, but the system can (and likely will) be expanded to be able to read floating combat text, as well as recognize queues directly from mobs (triggering an audio clip is one they are working on now).

This program is then feeding that data directly in to ACT. It is providing a fairly solid near live parse of combat. It has a second or two of latency, but that will be improved (and is usable in it that state anyway).

This is not being designed for AoC, but the person leading it's creation is probably going to end up playing this game which means he will put the time in to make the conversions needed from the game it is being built for now.

It is also only one of two programs I know of being made right now that would allow for parsing in Ashes without breaking the EULA - and this program DOESN'T break the EULA of any MMO yet released (even if it goes against the spirit of many). There isn't an EULA in the world that tells you what you can do with computers other than the one you are running the game client on, and the program in question runs on a separate machine (hence the capture card).

Why am I telling you this? Simple...

I'm sure you've seen the "User Experience vs Design" meme that was floating around the place a few years ago. A park, courtyard or similar with nice straight paved paths and such - and a big ugly worn dirt track that leads directly between where people are coming from and where they are going, ignoring the paved paths as if they weren't even there.

My point is, Intrepid are designing their paths in places people aren't going to walk. While it may seem fantastic in their heads to have the paths where they want them, when the game is even just a few weeks old, that ugly worn dirt track will already be showing.

Since Intrepid have not yet laid those paths, I am simply trying to get them to place them where people WILL end up walking. If they place them there, the whole thing may not look as good as it does in their head, but with those paths only placed where people are going to walk, then they have the rest of the space to make things look good.

WoW didn't start off taking DBM in to consideration with it's raid mobs - because DBM wasn't around at the start of WoW. However, once it became widespread - a fact that Blizzard has no influence over if the program doesn't break the EULA - they had literally no choice but to take it in to consideration when developing raid content, which made it mandatory for raids rather than just widespread.

As I outlined above, a "legal" combat tracker will exist for Ashes. The developers will eventually have to acknowledge that fact - not now, not even before launch, but at some point.

My entire argument for a combat tracker in Ashes, and how I would implement one boils down to the following; one will exist, content will be developed based on players using it, I would rather it be one that Intrepid have control over than one they don't.

As for implementation, I fully understand the reasons for wanting to keep a tracker out of the hands of people that don't know how to use it - like @dygz.

While it is impossible to keep it out of the hands of every player that doesn't know how to use it properly, it is possible to go some of the way towards that. I am a firm believer that things need not be all or nothing, it is ok to do a thing even if it is only going to be partially effective - and my suggestion to implement a parser to the game as a guild reward. This could perhaps be competing with a boost to the quantity of raw materials harvested, and maybe something RP focused like better RP cred for good ERP or something (I honestly don't know what RP'ers want, which is why I stay out of RP focused conversations - a fact others on these forums could take note of).

It isn't a perfect solution, but that's ok. It's a good solution, which is enough.

Blackhearted

So if someone develops a program that reads players screen for heads and moves mouse instead of game cursor they should develop game around it?

Ghoosty

dygz wrote: »

It's there in that first quote: DPS meters aren't necessary...the available info won't be like what's available in DPS meters and such tools.
But, you can believe what you wish until the game launches.

They clearly stated that they will not support addons. (Maybe interface modifiers will be available.)
They clearly stated that there will not be first person view.
They clearly stated that there will not be visual signs on the ground where the boss will attack.
They clearly stated lot of things.
Regarding the DPS meter, the strongest statement is that it is not necessary. It can mean they will not implement, but it also can mean that it will be available, but thank to the lot of randomness, it will not give too much help. I also can imagine, that it will not be available at the beginning but if some half-legal stuff will be created they will add it to the game.

Additionally I agree with that, it is not necessary to play the game, but I think it is a useful tool. If there will only be available 3rd party half-legal ones, I will not use them.
It is something like a pepper to the food. Some people like it, some not. I appreciate if I found some pepper on the table and the person who like it use it. But if there is no pepper on the table, I try what the chief prepared. If it tastes good without it, I will come back.

Wandering Mist

@noaani You paint an interesting picture of the future, and yet I am sceptical. Let's not forget that addons like DBM were developed because of the base WoW UI was so bad for raiding, and the boss mechanics didn't give you any chance to react effectively to them. Once boss mods were established by the community, Blizzard took the easy route and designed raid encounters around their use instead of making the raids doable without the mods.

This ties into @ghoosty 's food analogy. If the food is prepared well you shouldn't need additions like salt and pepper on the table. Blizzard is like the chef who knows their food is under-seasoned and instead of changing their recipe, they just put a load of condiments on the table for the customers to fix the food themselves.

You'll notice that a lot of the mods players used to use back in Vanilla WoW are no longer used at all, because Blizzard fixed the problems that the mods were designed to correct. Things like the Emergency Monitor, CT raid assist, decursive, cast bar addons, etc. all are now redundant because of the changes Blizzard have made to the game over the years.

I'd like to think that the the players won't go behind the dev's backs and developer a combat tracker that circumvents the EULA, but I'm not that naive. There will always be someone who is determined to have their way regardless of what is best for the game, and others will follow.

The future you describe is very similar to what has happened in GW2. Like Intrepid, Arenanet were opposed to any kind of addons and dps meters for years. But after the players started using them "in secret", the devs finally allowed them to be used openly. The result was predictable, with higher levels of toxicity and meta-gaming in PUGs that have torn the community apart.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/80769/your-dps-is-trash

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