Rewards: Time-based vs Skill-based

Do you think that rewards or in fact just your character's power should be based on time spent in-game, or based on skill. For example, if you play the game 10 hours a week, should your character be as strong as someone who is a lot more skilled than you who only plays 5 hours a week?

And no, time spent playing a game doesn't automatically correlate to skill gained. I've been playing League of Legends since 2011 and yet there are pro players who have been playing for half that amount of time and are better than me.

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Caeryl

With that small amount of difference, 5 hours+skill likely should come out even with 10 hours

AoC absolutely should reward both skill applied and time invested, but I don’t think someone with minimal time investment should ever be able to stomp another player whose spent months playing regardless of skill difference.

zinnie

Its a difficult question, since every Game Company wants players playing their game for as long as possible they will artificially create a form of progression to give you some form of reward for your time in their game.

In some games, the reward is essentially getting better mechanically at the game, be it League, Starcraft, CSGO etc. These are fairly balanced, tightly controlled PvP games where the Game Company has a lot of control.

MMO's tend to be more fluid, has a larger variety in class and build composition and a much larger and more difficult balancing act for the Company.
Its easier to rely on Time-Spent progression in these types of games, as people with lower skill will still feel they are progressing to a certain degree. Everybody is getting rewarded in some sense without having to put in a ton of work.
The downside to this model is that some players will put in the work and play 12 hours a day, so the Time-Spent progression model highly favors these types of players.

The Solution?

Have meaningful progression over a multitude of areas, also known as horizontal progression. Have some form of skill based progression, and also have Time-Spent progression. You will essentially cater to both groups since you are focusing on having progression over a larger area instead of hyper-focusing on one ( Power)

Wandering Mist

@zinnie What you talk about essentially comes down to character progression vs player progression which you can still control in an mmorpg (yes it is harder as you said). In terms of base character progression such as levelling up, I agree it should be mostly time-based. The part I'm struggling with is more leaning towards max level gear progression.

Here's a hypothetical situation. 2 players (A and B ) are trying to kill a boss. Both players initially face the boss at max level with the same quality of gear, and both players are the same skill level. Both players fail to kill the boss the first few tries. Player A doesn't improve their skill and instead relies on getting better gear from other sources in order to beat the boss. Player B on the other hand DOES improve their skill to the point where they can successfully kill the boss without any gear upgrades.

Do you believe that Player A deserves to kill the boss even though they haven't improved as a player, even if they put more hours into the game than player B does?

zinnie

wanderingmist wrote: »

@zinnie What you talk about essentially comes down to character progression vs player progression which you can still control in an mmorpg (yes it is harder as you said). In terms of base character progression such as levelling up, I agree it should be mostly time-based. The part I'm struggling with is more leaning towards max level gear progression.

Here's a hypothetical situation. 2 players (A and B ) are trying to kill a boss. Both players initially face the boss at max level with the same quality of gear, and both players are the same skill level. Both players fail to kill the boss the first few tries. Player A doesn't improve their skill and instead relies on getting better gear from other sources in order to beat the boss. Player B on the other hand DOES improve their skill to the point where they can successfully kill the boss without any gear upgrades.

Do you believe that Player A deserves to kill the boss even though they haven't improved as a player, even if they put more hours into the game than player B does?

I think my answer would be both players would get the reward for taking different paths. That's what player driven gameplay is all about.
The player with less skill will still have an option to improve by progressing in a different way than the player with higher mechanical skill.
The time a skilled player has spent learning how to become better at his class is time another player can spend increasing his crafting level to make himself better gear.
In the end they both achieve the same result.

demonical3

yes? Player A still worked to kill that boss simply by improving his character by getting better gear before trying again. Player B just has the satisfaction knowing he beat it without having done that, dont realy see why Player A may not be as skilled but he put in more time to get "better" with more gear.

In the end with "Max gear" the skilled player will outshine the "time" based player anyways.

WizardTim

These games tend to have one fairly fatal flaw in them though. That is that anything time based can be circumvented by skill. Player B will always have access to better gear because player B can fight better. So player B solo's the boss because they spent more time learning their character, gets better drops because they soloed it faster, and can then pursue more challenging bosses while player A must improve his gear first.

I believe that balancing player versus character progression is going to be nigh impossible.

Wandering Mist

wolfwood82 wrote: »

These games tend to have one fairly fatal flaw in them though. That is that anything time based can be circumvented by skill. Player B will always have access to better gear because player B can fight better. So player B solo's the boss because they spent more time learning their character, gets better drops because they soloed it faster, and can then pursue more challenging bosses while player A must improve his gear first.

I believe that balancing player versus character progression is going to be nigh impossible.

Isn't that a good thing that the more skilled player is rewarded with faster progression?

georgeblack

If person A plays for 10 hours on day one, they get X amount of experience, leading to X amount of level and unlocking X amount of abilities.

In addition this player has farmed X amount of materials for the gear they want to craft.
No artificial progress. This is real progress.

Person B has played 5 hours doing the same things as person A.
Person B has made half the progress of person A.

I dont think that loggin rewards are annything more than an annoying screen that pops up. Never cared to log in every day to collect some trinkets that will not help me, if I dont actually stay and play the game.

However if person A plays 10h a day and instead of killing mobs, questing, crafting, raiding, is running around dancing in front of NPCs or riding all over the map like a tourist on a double-story bus, or looking for PvP trouble all the time, person A
should not progress as fast as person B, who spend 5h in gaining XP and farming materials.

The more you put in the game, the faster your progress.
This is coming from a person that used to play many hours a day but for years now I play much much less per day.

If a skilled player isnt playing as much as a devoted player they shouldnt expect to have reached the same lv and gear. They may be better at fighting people of their own lv and a litle bit above them, but not able to win against a person that is way way higher lv and better geared.

Damokles

wanderingmist wrote: »

For example, if you play the game 10 hours a week, should your character be as strong as someone who is a lot more skilled than you who only plays 5 hours a week?

Those are some weak numbers right there! ;D

I believe, that people who invest time into a game should have the same chances as people who gained high amounts of skill in the game.
Example:
Someone completes an extremely difficult, but short questchain and gets the same rewards as someone who completes an easier but way longer questchain.
My favourite memory is from AION: they had a specific quest that started in the fhird leveling zone, leading you through 5 different maps and yoj had to speak to a ton of people, and you got an title at the end.

Wandering Mist

damokles wrote: »

wanderingmist wrote: »

For example, if you play the game 10 hours a week, should your character be as strong as someone who is a lot more skilled than you who only plays 5 hours a week?

Those are some weak numbers right there! ;D

I believe, that people who invest time into a game should have the same chances as people who gained high amounts of skill in the game.
Example:
Someone completes an extremely difficult, but short questchain and gets the same rewards as someone who completes an easier but way longer questchain.
My favourite memory is from AION: they had a specific quest that started in the fhird leveling zone, leading you through 5 different maps and yoj had to speak to a ton of people, and you got an title at the end.

Ok, but why?

Damokles

wanderingmist wrote: »

damokles wrote: »

wanderingmist wrote: »

For example, if you play the game 10 hours a week, should your character be as strong as someone who is a lot more skilled than you who only plays 5 hours a week?

Those are some weak numbers right there! ;D

I believe, that people who invest time into a game should have the same chances as people who gained high amounts of skill in the game.
Example:
Someone completes an extremely difficult, but short questchain and gets the same rewards as someone who completes an easier but way longer questchain.
My favourite memory is from AION: they had a specific quest that started in the fhird leveling zone, leading you through 5 different maps and yoj had to speak to a ton of people, and you got an title at the end.

Ok, but why?

I dont relly have to have a reason do i?
It is my opinion that people who invest big amounts of their time into the game should get the same types of rewards, then people who invest less time, but show kore skill.
An alchemist who grinds and grinds his mastery should be on the same level as someone who finds some cool quest for a special alchemy exp reward + recepie.

Wandering Mist

damokles wrote: »

wanderingmist wrote: »

damokles wrote: »

wanderingmist wrote: »

For example, if you play the game 10 hours a week, should your character be as strong as someone who is a lot more skilled than you who only plays 5 hours a week?

Those are some weak numbers right there! ;D

I believe, that people who invest time into a game should have the same chances as people who gained high amounts of skill in the game.
Example:
Someone completes an extremely difficult, but short questchain and gets the same rewards as someone who completes an easier but way longer questchain.
My favourite memory is from AION: they had a specific quest that started in the fhird leveling zone, leading you through 5 different maps and yoj had to speak to a ton of people, and you got an title at the end.

Ok, but why?

I dont relly have to have a reason do i?
It is my opinion that people who invest big amounts of their time into the game should get the same types of rewards, then people who invest less time, but show kore skill.
An alchemist who grinds and grinds his mastery should be on the same level as someone who finds some cool quest for a special alchemy exp reward + recepie.

Ok, so if 2 people go to the gym every week, and one of them does 1 hour walking on the treadmill, and the other does a 30 minute intensive workout, which one do you think will benefit more from their workout?

Damokles

wanderingmist wrote: »

damokles wrote: »

wanderingmist wrote: »

damokles wrote: »

wanderingmist wrote: »

For example, if you play the game 10 hours a week, should your character be as strong as someone who is a lot more skilled than you who only plays 5 hours a week?

Those are some weak numbers right there! ;D

I believe, that people who invest time into a game should have the same chances as people who gained high amounts of skill in the game.
Example:
Someone completes an extremely difficult, but short questchain and gets the same rewards as someone who completes an easier but way longer questchain.
My favourite memory is from AION: they had a specific quest that started in the fhird leveling zone, leading you through 5 different maps and yoj had to speak to a ton of people, and you got an title at the end.

Ok, but why?

I dont relly have to have a reason do i?
It is my opinion that people who invest big amounts of their time into the game should get the same types of rewards, then people who invest less time, but show kore skill.
An alchemist who grinds and grinds his mastery should be on the same level as someone who finds some cool quest for a special alchemy exp reward + recepie.

Ok, so if 2 people go to the gym every week, and one of them does 1 hour walking on the treadmill, and the other does a 30 minute intensive workout, which one do you think will benefit more from their workout?

That does not really compare tbh...
Someone on a treadmill trains his endurance, while someone who does intensive workout trains his musculature, but i digress.
This is my opinion and i dont need to defend it to you.
I believe that unskilled players who love the game and want to play it should be rewarded for their invested time.

Tarlach

wanderingmist wrote: »

damokles wrote: »

wanderingmist wrote: »

damokles wrote: »

wanderingmist wrote: »

For example, if you play the game 10 hours a week, should your character be as strong as someone who is a lot more skilled than you who only plays 5 hours a week?

Those are some weak numbers right there! ;D

I believe, that people who invest time into a game should have the same chances as people who gained high amounts of skill in the game.
Example:
Someone completes an extremely difficult, but short questchain and gets the same rewards as someone who completes an easier but way longer questchain.
My favourite memory is from AION: they had a specific quest that started in the fhird leveling zone, leading you through 5 different maps and yoj had to speak to a ton of people, and you got an title at the end.

Ok, but why?

I dont relly have to have a reason do i?
It is my opinion that people who invest big amounts of their time into the game should get the same types of rewards, then people who invest less time, but show kore skill.
An alchemist who grinds and grinds his mastery should be on the same level as someone who finds some cool quest for a special alchemy exp reward + recepie.

Ok, so if 2 people go to the gym every week, and one of them does 1 hour walking on the treadmill, and the other does a 30 minute intensive workout, which one do you think will benefit more from their workout?

Skill at a game means nothing if your not willing to put in the time needed to advance in it. Someone that farms and works hard on getting an armor or sword should be inherently stronger than someone who is skilled but does not have the same items.
All games are this way, and believe it or not life is also this way. I don't think this game should be any different. The time between an hour and half our is minuscule but if you changed that to 40 hours a week compared to 8 hours. I think the gap in strength should be inherent.Take this from someone that is not skilled at games and also doesn't have time to put into a game. I am screwed on both fronts.

Azathoth

---I am not sure I am reading the OP as intended---
Full disclosure, I will likely only be able to get 5-6 hours a week during the weeks I have time to play. TL/DR: I don't think time invested should be artificially compensated.

I think players whose skill set improves quicker during any given time investment would naturally be better at the game, and I think this is appropriate. It's how better players feel more rewarded base on their talent. I don't think there should be some algorithm that says "Target Skill Level is X, you can get that on a shorter path here with more skill vs a longer path here with less skill."

I do think that Ashes should have things that can be accomplished in many different ways, if some allow the short-and-straight along with the long-and-easy that would be cool.

I am also not sure why you would want to encourage time investment rewards. For me this would have the effect of punishing players who can't play as often. Not only am I falling behind the leveling and player skill curve by only investing a fraction of the time, but those with more time get bonuses because they have more time to invest?

Rested xp, as in another thread, seems to be the opposite of this and I am still against it. Otherwise, everyone's alts that never get played would receive XP bonuses for not being played.

Roko

I usually have very limited time for games so when a game offers a shortcut (this is how I see anything that allows me to do anything in a shorter time). I will feel forced to take it. mainly because I know most people will avoid the longer route so I feel socially pressured to take the time efficient route. Only to regret not taking the longer way and enjoying the trip later down the line. So for that i don't like when a game offers shortcuts.

I prefer to have multiple options to achieve the same thing that are equally challenging and take the same amount of time, rather than feeling like I NEED to do it this way because it's more time efficient and everyone else is getting ahead of me by doing it the fast way.

Noaani

I personally don't think time / player skill is the right axis to look at here.

To me, a far more important factor in determining progress in an MMO is organisation. I've known quite a few players over the years that do nothing other than pre-organizing a run on a specific piece of content, log on just for that content run, and then log back off again.

These people spend hardly any time in game, yet progress far faster than people that spent 4 times as much time online yet don't have things organized.

While this matters less while leveling, leveling is usually only a small percentage of the game for most MMO players (EQ2 published the amount of time people of a given level spent in game once, almost 90% of the time was spent on max level characters).

I also personally consider knowledge to be of greater importance than skill, though this only really applies to tab targeting based game. To me, with Ashes having a mix of tab and action combat, I see this as people making a choice between skill (twitch) based gameplay and knowledge based gameplay. If these are equally balanced, then it makes the distinction between skill and knowledge irrelevant in Ashes.

Wandering Mist

tarlach wrote: »

wanderingmist wrote: »

damokles wrote: »

wanderingmist wrote: »

damokles wrote: »

wanderingmist wrote: »

For example, if you play the game 10 hours a week, should your character be as strong as someone who is a lot more skilled than you who only plays 5 hours a week?

Those are some weak numbers right there! ;D

I believe, that people who invest time into a game should have the same chances as people who gained high amounts of skill in the game.
Example:
Someone completes an extremely difficult, but short questchain and gets the same rewards as someone who completes an easier but way longer questchain.
My favourite memory is from AION: they had a specific quest that started in the fhird leveling zone, leading you through 5 different maps and yoj had to speak to a ton of people, and you got an title at the end.

Ok, but why?

I dont relly have to have a reason do i?
It is my opinion that people who invest big amounts of their time into the game should get the same types of rewards, then people who invest less time, but show kore skill.
An alchemist who grinds and grinds his mastery should be on the same level as someone who finds some cool quest for a special alchemy exp reward + recepie.

Ok, so if 2 people go to the gym every week, and one of them does 1 hour walking on the treadmill, and the other does a 30 minute intensive workout, which one do you think will benefit more from their workout?

Skill at a game means nothing if your not willing to put in the time needed to advance in it. Someone that farms and works hard on getting an armor or sword should be inherently stronger than someone who is skilled but does not have the same items.
All games are this way, and believe it or not life is also this way. I don't think this game should be any different. The time between an hour and half our is minuscule but if you changed that to 40 hours a week compared to 8 hours. I think the gap in strength should be inherent.Take this from someone that is not skilled at games and also doesn't have time to put into a game. I am screwed on both fronts.

Time spent doing something means nothing if you are not willing to improve at it. I am well aware that someone with better gear should be stronger than someone with worse gear. The issue I'm debating here is HOW you acquire that gear. I don't believe that doing a very easy task should generate the same quality of gear as a harder task does, regardless of how long that easy method takes.

I also believe there should be an upper limit on how far you can go with superior gear and little skill, but that is another topic for another day I think.

Dygz

damokles wrote: »

An alchemist who grinds and grinds his mastery should be on the same level as someone who finds some cool quest for a special alchemy exp reward + recepie.

I don't understand why the Alchemist investing hardcore time would not also find that cool quest for a special alchemy xp reward + recipe. Seems to me that the player with hardcore time would be likely to find more of those than the player with casual time.

Time invested may not always teach player skill. A casual time player could still be better because they understand how to kite, or cc or maximize the benefits of their healing augments in a way that the individual hardcore time player never thinks of.

WizardTim

wanderingmist wrote: »

wolfwood82 wrote: »

These games tend to have one fairly fatal flaw in them though. That is that anything time based can be circumvented by skill. Player B will always have access to better gear because player B can fight better. So player B solo's the boss because they spent more time learning their character, gets better drops because they soloed it faster, and can then pursue more challenging bosses while player A must improve his gear first.

I believe that balancing player versus character progression is going to be nigh impossible.

Isn't that a good thing that the more skilled player is rewarded with faster progression?

Good for the skilled player, sucks for the rest of the community that has to put up with a 13 year old with "mad skillz" though.

On a more serious response, it's not progression we're really discussing. It's the end game content, when progression no longer matters. This is where people go for the gear, and get stronger through expanding wealth and gear rather than levels.

So the long haul gamer might get to the end game first, but falls behind because they can't progress. And gamers who can't progress typically quit playing the game they can no longer progress in.

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