leonerdo wrote: » To be frank, grinding fucking sucks. I'd prefer it if they just made multiple difficulty levels for all of their content. If you want my more nuanced reasoning, keep reading, but that's the entirety of my opinion right there: Grinding sucks. The only thing that's necessary is that all kinds of players, casual to hardcore, get content that is appropriately challenging for them. There are multiple ways to achieve that of course. To me, it sounds like you're debating Time investment used as a Difficulty slider. This is exemplified by the Dark Souls series. It's a hard game, with only one difficulty setting. But you can grind for souls or explore for items, in order to make your character stronger. Therefore you can make the game easier just by playing more. In the end, all players get a relatively satisfying challenge, regardless of their skill level. End-game gear treadmills in many MMOs work similarly: The latest raids are designed to be extremely difficult. Top-tier guilds can clear them on the first week. Other groups will grind for a while for BiS gear. And others still will just wait for the treadmill to progress (the next content patch), making better gear available and old gear cheaper. IMO, that's acceptable. It's kinda a hollow experience when you think about it, since anyone can beat the content easily just by grinding/waiting for better gear. But it is a time-tested and proven tactic for keeping end-game enjoyable (at least for a couple years) for players of all skill-levels. But really I'd just prefer to have all of the power available (vertical progression) by 50-100 hours into the game. After that, they should just make casual- and hard-mode content so nobody has to grind for arbitrary gear requirements. If that means that some hard-mode content is unbeatable for some people, at least it makes the challenge/triumph more satisfying for those who can beat it.
georgeblack wrote: » leonerdo wrote: » To be frank, grinding fucking sucks. I'd prefer it if they just made multiple difficulty levels for all of their content. If you want my more nuanced reasoning, keep reading, but that's the entirety of my opinion right there: Grinding sucks. The only thing that's necessary is that all kinds of players, casual to hardcore, get content that is appropriately challenging for them. There are multiple ways to achieve that of course. To me, it sounds like you're debating Time investment used as a Difficulty slider. This is exemplified by the Dark Souls series. It's a hard game, with only one difficulty setting. But you can grind for souls or explore for items, in order to make your character stronger. Therefore you can make the game easier just by playing more. In the end, all players get a relatively satisfying challenge, regardless of their skill level. End-game gear treadmills in many MMOs work similarly: The latest raids are designed to be extremely difficult. Top-tier guilds can clear them on the first week. Other groups will grind for a while for BiS gear. And others still will just wait for the treadmill to progress (the next content patch), making better gear available and old gear cheaper. IMO, that's acceptable. It's kinda a hollow experience when you think about it, since anyone can beat the content easily just by grinding/waiting for better gear. But it is a time-tested and proven tactic for keeping end-game enjoyable (at least for a couple years) for players of all skill-levels. But really I'd just prefer to have all of the power available (vertical progression) by 50-100 hours into the game. After that, they should just make casual- and hard-mode content so nobody has to grind for arbitrary gear requirements. If that means that some hard-mode content is unbeatable for some people, at least it makes the challenge/triumph more satisfying for those who can beat it. Have you tried ESO? It is what you look for in an mmorpg from what you wrote
Caeryl wrote: » georgeblack wrote: » leonerdo wrote: » To be frank, grinding fucking sucks. I'd prefer it if they just made multiple difficulty levels for all of their content. If you want my more nuanced reasoning, keep reading, but that's the entirety of my opinion right there: Grinding sucks. The only thing that's necessary is that all kinds of players, casual to hardcore, get content that is appropriately challenging for them. There are multiple ways to achieve that of course. To me, it sounds like you're debating Time investment used as a Difficulty slider. This is exemplified by the Dark Souls series. It's a hard game, with only one difficulty setting. But you can grind for souls or explore for items, in order to make your character stronger. Therefore you can make the game easier just by playing more. In the end, all players get a relatively satisfying challenge, regardless of their skill level. End-game gear treadmills in many MMOs work similarly: The latest raids are designed to be extremely difficult. Top-tier guilds can clear them on the first week. Other groups will grind for a while for BiS gear. And others still will just wait for the treadmill to progress (the next content patch), making better gear available and old gear cheaper. IMO, that's acceptable. It's kinda a hollow experience when you think about it, since anyone can beat the content easily just by grinding/waiting for better gear. But it is a time-tested and proven tactic for keeping end-game enjoyable (at least for a couple years) for players of all skill-levels. But really I'd just prefer to have all of the power available (vertical progression) by 50-100 hours into the game. After that, they should just make casual- and hard-mode content so nobody has to grind for arbitrary gear requirements. If that means that some hard-mode content is unbeatable for some people, at least it makes the challenge/triumph more satisfying for those who can beat it. Have you tried ESO? It is what you look for in an mmorpg from what you wrote ESO is a bad example. Their skill floor is leagues behind the skill ceiling, with the middle ground lacking suitably challenging content. It’s like a 100 story building, where everything up to veteran base game dungeons and normal base game trials is covered by the 25th floor. Normal dlc trials might be on the 40th. Vet dlc dungeons is up on the 50th. Vet base trials on the 60th. Then vet DLC trials are stuck wayyy up on the 100th floor. ESO is very much a shallow game, with minimal to earn through gameplay and a heavy focus on cash shop purchasing. It is the exact opposite of what sort of “difficulty” I would want to see in Ashes.
wolfwood82 wrote: » wanderingmist wrote: » wolfwood82 wrote: » These games tend to have one fairly fatal flaw in them though. That is that anything time based can be circumvented by skill. Player B will always have access to better gear because player B can fight better. So player B solo's the boss because they spent more time learning their character, gets better drops because they soloed it faster, and can then pursue more challenging bosses while player A must improve his gear first. I believe that balancing player versus character progression is going to be nigh impossible. Isn't that a good thing that the more skilled player is rewarded with faster progression? Good for the skilled player, sucks for the rest of the community that has to put up with a 13 year old with "mad skillz" though. On a more serious response, it's not progression we're really discussing. It's the end game content, when progression no longer matters. This is where people go for the gear, and get stronger through expanding wealth and gear rather than levels. So the long haul gamer might get to the end game first, but falls behind because they can't progress. And gamers who can't progress typically quit playing the game they can no longer progress in.
wanderingmist wrote: » wolfwood82 wrote: » These games tend to have one fairly fatal flaw in them though. That is that anything time based can be circumvented by skill. Player B will always have access to better gear because player B can fight better. So player B solo's the boss because they spent more time learning their character, gets better drops because they soloed it faster, and can then pursue more challenging bosses while player A must improve his gear first. I believe that balancing player versus character progression is going to be nigh impossible. Isn't that a good thing that the more skilled player is rewarded with faster progression?
wolfwood82 wrote: » These games tend to have one fairly fatal flaw in them though. That is that anything time based can be circumvented by skill. Player B will always have access to better gear because player B can fight better. So player B solo's the boss because they spent more time learning their character, gets better drops because they soloed it faster, and can then pursue more challenging bosses while player A must improve his gear first. I believe that balancing player versus character progression is going to be nigh impossible.
wanderingmist wrote: » You don't think that gearing up a character in an RPG is a form of progression?
dygz wrote: » wanderingmist wrote: » You don't think that gearing up a character in an RPG is a form of progression? I think MMORPGs have placed too much of a focus on gear as a form of progression - at the expense of other content. Devs use that as the easiest way to keep players paying while they work on creating content for new expansions. I don't play RPGs for gear progression. I play RPGs to experience the stories of life in a virtual fantasy or sci-fi setting. I want to feel like I'm living out a novel or movie - those rarely have the objective of acquiring a complete set of BiS gear. So, while gear is a form of progression, it's the least interesting form of progression, IMO. Good MMORPGs will be designed to accommodate a wide variety playstyles.
wanderingmist wrote: » For example, if you play the game 10 hours a week, should your character be as strong as someone who is a lot more skilled than you who only plays 5 hours a week?
wanderingmist wrote: » wolfwood82 wrote: » wanderingmist wrote: » wolfwood82 wrote: » These games tend to have one fairly fatal flaw in them though. That is that anything time based can be circumvented by skill. Player B will always have access to better gear because player B can fight better. So player B solo's the boss because they spent more time learning their character, gets better drops because they soloed it faster, and can then pursue more challenging bosses while player A must improve his gear first. I believe that balancing player versus character progression is going to be nigh impossible. Isn't that a good thing that the more skilled player is rewarded with faster progression? Good for the skilled player, sucks for the rest of the community that has to put up with a 13 year old with "mad skillz" though. On a more serious response, it's not progression we're really discussing. It's the end game content, when progression no longer matters. This is where people go for the gear, and get stronger through expanding wealth and gear rather than levels. So the long haul gamer might get to the end game first, but falls behind because they can't progress. And gamers who can't progress typically quit playing the game they can no longer progress in. You don't think that gearing up a character in an RPG is a form of progression?
georgeblack wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » georgeblack wrote: » leonerdo wrote: » To be frank, grinding fucking sucks. I'd prefer it if they just made multiple difficulty levels for all of their content. If you want my more nuanced reasoning, keep reading, but that's the entirety of my opinion right there: Grinding sucks. The only thing that's necessary is that all kinds of players, casual to hardcore, get content that is appropriately challenging for them. There are multiple ways to achieve that of course. To me, it sounds like you're debating Time investment used as a Difficulty slider. This is exemplified by the Dark Souls series. It's a hard game, with only one difficulty setting. But you can grind for souls or explore for items, in order to make your character stronger. Therefore you can make the game easier just by playing more. In the end, all players get a relatively satisfying challenge, regardless of their skill level. End-game gear treadmills in many MMOs work similarly: The latest raids are designed to be extremely difficult. Top-tier guilds can clear them on the first week. Other groups will grind for a while for BiS gear. And others still will just wait for the treadmill to progress (the next content patch), making better gear available and old gear cheaper. IMO, that's acceptable. It's kinda a hollow experience when you think about it, since anyone can beat the content easily just by grinding/waiting for better gear. But it is a time-tested and proven tactic for keeping end-game enjoyable (at least for a couple years) for players of all skill-levels. But really I'd just prefer to have all of the power available (vertical progression) by 50-100 hours into the game. After that, they should just make casual- and hard-mode content so nobody has to grind for arbitrary gear requirements. If that means that some hard-mode content is unbeatable for some people, at least it makes the challenge/triumph more satisfying for those who can beat it. Have you tried ESO? It is what you look for in an mmorpg from what you wrote ESO is a bad example. Their skill floor is leagues behind the skill ceiling, with the middle ground lacking suitably challenging content. It’s like a 100 story building, where everything up to veteran base game dungeons and normal base game trials is covered by the 25th floor. Normal dlc trials might be on the 40th. Vet dlc dungeons is up on the 50th. Vet base trials on the 60th. Then vet DLC trials are stuck wayyy up on the 100th floor. ESO is very much a shallow game, with minimal to earn through gameplay and a heavy focus on cash shop purchasing. It is the exact opposite of what sort of “difficulty” I would want to see in Ashes. Excactly. Mmorpgs are more meaningful if the progression of a character requires time. The difficulty in mmorpgs is: commitment to goals defeating other players either as a group or individual effort. The extras in mmorpgs are: graphics and audio map size and plethora of landscapes non combat related activities engaging combat Mmorpgs require time and goes hand in hand with grinding as you go further away from the gates of a city. Eso is a bad example of an mmorpg. I hope AoC is more of an old school type (even tho personally I cant play as much). The fellow I quoted should look into ESO for what he wants.
wolfwood82 wrote: » wanderingmist wrote: » wolfwood82 wrote: » wanderingmist wrote: » wolfwood82 wrote: » These games tend to have one fairly fatal flaw in them though. That is that anything time based can be circumvented by skill. Player B will always have access to better gear because player B can fight better. So player B solo's the boss because they spent more time learning their character, gets better drops because they soloed it faster, and can then pursue more challenging bosses while player A must improve his gear first. I believe that balancing player versus character progression is going to be nigh impossible. Isn't that a good thing that the more skilled player is rewarded with faster progression? Good for the skilled player, sucks for the rest of the community that has to put up with a 13 year old with "mad skillz" though. On a more serious response, it's not progression we're really discussing. It's the end game content, when progression no longer matters. This is where people go for the gear, and get stronger through expanding wealth and gear rather than levels. So the long haul gamer might get to the end game first, but falls behind because they can't progress. And gamers who can't progress typically quit playing the game they can no longer progress in. You don't think that gearing up a character in an RPG is a form of progression? It is, but I believe when you say "spend time to get better gear" you mean crafting or grinding money for purchases. Crafted gear has a cap in games as well. When you craft the absolute highest tier items you can, you peak out and can no longer advance in crafting or advance by acquiring better gear that way. Likewise with purchases, unless you purchase dungeon drops rather than crafted gear, there's a limit to what you can purchase. For the unskilled time based character, there are very hard caps to their progression. Skill based characters don't rely on acquiring gear to clear their obstacles, and progression for them is how well they physically play the game. Either way you slice it, skill based characters are always going to have advantages over time based ones. And we can't forget that players who spend more time in the game will likely understand and play the game better anyway, so really this argument just looks at the casuals and shrugs.
dygz wrote: » Well, that's really a matter of character improvement v player improvement. In an RPG, there should be a variety of ways to improve the character - that won't always be a factor of time. Learning RPG and MMOPRG combat strategies aren't always related to how much time a player spends in the current MMORPG being played. Some players never learn not to stand in the telegraphed aoe zone or to keep their backs to a wall to avoid being jumped by adds. Some players never learn to aid a Rogue's backstab by positioning for a flank. Some players might always focus on highest dps even when they're playing a healer or cc or buff class. Some players might know from prior RPG experience how best to complement the stats and traits they want to utilize with gear and race bonuses. And some players might not care much at all about maxing their character's power or being the most efficient in combat because they are focused on other facets of the game, like socializing or exploring.
