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Thoughts on the directors letter?

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Comments

  • I liked the developer update, sure I would have liked to see dates for Alpha 1 because that brings us closer to Alpha 2 which is when I can start hopping in to test the MMO instead of just Apoc's testing ground so I was a little sad not to get it, but I figured they would be waiting until the next round of Apoc's testing before deciding to give us an Alpha 1 date. I would expect Alpha 1 to be dependent on the next BR testing phase to see how their changes work or don't.

    I think part of the problem is they were too loose with dates at the beginning, even being unrealistic in hindsight, and got burned by the community when dates had to be changed and things took longer and now they are gun shy about giving us any information because the community will crucify them if they have to push things back again or if something isn't available yet in game that they said would be there even though this happens a lot in game development.

    I also think the ranting about the time frame and lack of information does more harm to keeping the community around/adding new members. I understand a lot of KS backers are hitting that "following fatigue" which sets in when your following a project for so long, but bitching about trust issues and then complaining that the community is disappearing is going to do much more harm to the community as new members come in and see these types of posts and go "nope I'm out". For the veterans, take a break, come back in a bit, find another project or game and maybe take a step back to rest up until more solid information comes out, and realize your probably driving people away from an MMO you want to succeed which does the opposite of what you want on a community level.

    I do understand, I didn't hop on with the Kickstarter, but found and bought into the game with the Intrepid packages just after the KS and even I have had to step away for a bit here and there when info becomes sparse and came back to check on things.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2019
    I'm really struggling to see where all the hate and confusion regarding APOC is coming from.
    Well, again, standalone really means that the setting is a prequel and the classes we have in APOC will not be the exact same classes we have in the MMORPG. It's also just action combat instead of the hybrid combat we will have in the MMORPG. Also, the devs don't want to rely on money from the MMORPG to support and develop APOC.
    But, it will always be a testing ground for the MMORPG.

    A lot of the hate seems to be coming from gamers who hate BRs.
  • AmistAmist Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2019
    I wanna give props to Intrepid for giving us a date as to when APOC will be coming back, as I was getting rather nervous about it's return and in conjunction the progression of the other testing phases. I did however find there to be still a lot of fluff in the letter and it was quite short. I would've loved to hear more about the A1 progression, as a lot of the focus seems to have switched to the BR (and yes I do know that the BR is currently a testing ground for Ashes of Creation).

    The video was nice and so was the voting for pets - though I don't think it fits into the letter, as it only concerns those who backed the KS

    I would overall just really like to see things presented more in an MMO fashion.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    branegames wrote: »
    I wanna give props to Intrepid for giving us a date as to when APOC will be coming back, as I was getting rather nervous about it's return and in conjunction the progression of the other testing phases. I did however find there to be still a lot of fluff in the letter and it was quite short. I would've loved to hear more about the A1 progression, as a lot of the focus seems to have switched to the BR (and yes I do know that the BR is currently a testing ground for Ashes of Creation).

    The video was nice and so was the voting for pets - though I don't think it fits into the letter, as it only concerns those who backed the KS

    I would overall just really like to see things presented more in an MMO fashion.

    I keep seeing comments like this which confuse me. What exactly do you mean by "presented in a more MMO fashion?"
    volunteer_moderator.gif
  • AmistAmist Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    branegames wrote: »
    I wanna give props to Intrepid for giving us a date as to when APOC will be coming back, as I was getting rather nervous about it's return and in conjunction the progression of the other testing phases. I did however find there to be still a lot of fluff in the letter and it was quite short. I would've loved to hear more about the A1 progression, as a lot of the focus seems to have switched to the BR (and yes I do know that the BR is currently a testing ground for Ashes of Creation).

    The video was nice and so was the voting for pets - though I don't think it fits into the letter, as it only concerns those who backed the KS

    I would overall just really like to see things presented more in an MMO fashion.

    I keep seeing comments like this which confuse me. What exactly do you mean by "presented in a more MMO fashion?"

    Put into the MMO world instead of the BR, as well as seeing exactly how the different BR systems will be integrated into the MMO
  • OrcLuckOrcLuck Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2019
    I think that people who experience APOC will have a superficial understanding of what the MMO is and represent that to people they interact with. That said, I also dislike that they're going to be offering a product they know isn't high in polish to basically anyone who wants to try it, while having concerns about polish affecting the views of the MMO backers, as though there is a difference between them and the APOC players. APOC players aren't Guinea pigs, and aren't meant to be a disposable resource. Players whom do not pay to play a game are not people you should have less respect for. They're gamers, and part of our community and we should want them to be valued.

    I've played many f2p games and I don't want any of the players who can't or won't pay into the system to feel they are lesser than other players. They aren't. I grew up in divorcee situation and money was tight. I would never want to make a kid in that situation, or a person in a similarly cruddy financial situation to ever feel bad about not being able to pay. Their gameplay their contribution to gaming through play is valuable, is worth celebrating and makes them true gamers.

    The act of gaming betters our society and contributes to the social cohesion of us into a real force in culture and society that pushes society forward. Participating in that is a precious contribution to society.
  • neuroguyneuroguy Member
    edited July 2019
    zomnivore wrote: »
    I think that people who experience APOC will have a superficial understanding of what the MMO is and represent that to people they interact with. That said, I also dislike that they're going to be offering a product they know isn't high in polish to basically anyone who wants to try it, while having concerns about polish affecting the views of the MMO backers, as though there is a difference between them and the APOC players. APOC players aren't Guinea pigs, and aren't meant to be a disposable resource. Players whom do not pay to play a game are not people you should have less respect for. They're gamers, and part of our community and we should want them to be valued.

    I've played many f2p games and I don't want any of the players who can't or won't pay into the system to feel they are lesser than other players. They aren't.

    The people who play apoc and those who play the mmo may not necessarily overlap. People may simply be interested in the BR and that's fine. They aren't going to deceive players. As long as the communication is good enough to convey that this is not a finished/polished product (which seems to be sufficiently conveyed) then it's fine. Many games are available pre-release (it's almost a model right now) and they even expect players to pay (pre-buy before the game is finished). With that in mind, apoc is completely fine, it is a zero risk product that is not a finished/polished game, people engage with it as often as they want.

    Now for the possibility that people misunderstand what AoC is by playing apoc, yeah that might happen but IS has been explicit that their marketing schemes are word-of-mouth. I'd expect that once the mmo game does come out, hopefully there will be sufficient coverage and hype on twitch, youtube etc. Then people can see what the finished product looks like, and ultimately, there is no alpha or beta as good as a finished game to help people decide if they want to buy into it.

    I have no idea how or why you think anybody is being treated as disposable or a guinea pig. If anything, the possibility of apoc being a standalone product in the future should convey to those who enjoy apoc that it could come back at some point. They are being allowed to play a game for free, not sure how that's taking advantage of anyone.

    Again, no idea how you think apoc or AoC the mmo requires people to pay or treats them as less because of it... there is not P2W component in either so far. Steven has been true to his word so far. I'm just confused as to how you perceive players being taken advantage of or being discriminated against based on if they paid or not...
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    branegames wrote: »
    branegames wrote: »
    I wanna give props to Intrepid for giving us a date as to when APOC will be coming back, as I was getting rather nervous about it's return and in conjunction the progression of the other testing phases. I did however find there to be still a lot of fluff in the letter and it was quite short. I would've loved to hear more about the A1 progression, as a lot of the focus seems to have switched to the BR (and yes I do know that the BR is currently a testing ground for Ashes of Creation).

    The video was nice and so was the voting for pets - though I don't think it fits into the letter, as it only concerns those who backed the KS

    I would overall just really like to see things presented more in an MMO fashion.

    I keep seeing comments like this which confuse me. What exactly do you mean by "presented in a more MMO fashion?"

    Put into the MMO world instead of the BR, as well as seeing exactly how the different BR systems will be integrated into the MMO

    I believe that Steven said, that all the things (assets etc) from the BR are actually made for the MMORPG.
    a6XEiIf.gif
  • AmistAmist Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2019
    damokles wrote: »
    branegames wrote: »
    branegames wrote: »
    I wanna give props to Intrepid for giving us a date as to when APOC will be coming back, as I was getting rather nervous about it's return and in conjunction the progression of the other testing phases. I did however find there to be still a lot of fluff in the letter and it was quite short. I would've loved to hear more about the A1 progression, as a lot of the focus seems to have switched to the BR (and yes I do know that the BR is currently a testing ground for Ashes of Creation).

    The video was nice and so was the voting for pets - though I don't think it fits into the letter, as it only concerns those who backed the KS

    I would overall just really like to see things presented more in an MMO fashion.

    I keep seeing comments like this which confuse me. What exactly do you mean by "presented in a more MMO fashion?"

    Put into the MMO world instead of the BR, as well as seeing exactly how the different BR systems will be integrated into the MMO

    I believe that Steven said, that all the things (assets etc) from the BR are actually made for the MMORPG.

    I know, but seeing them demonstrated in an MMO setting would make the BR seem much more reasonable to me at least. The way that they are integrated into the MMO is a huge deal, because a lot of the BR has to do with the combat.

    Overall the BR has left me kind of confused (this is something I wrote in another post about the BR) as the team did have arena maps ready for use at PAX about a year ago. I still don't quite understand why the team wouldn't just use those maps to essentially do what the BR does, whilst also providing the ability to test the MMO
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I can't help but compare what alpha 0 was to apocalypse, and I think that is my main problem. Alpha 0 while basic was an MMO while I don't see that in apocalypse. Anyway, that may change I the next testing modes, but right now apocalypse is only suitable for me for lore.
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    branegames wrote: »
    damokles wrote: »
    branegames wrote: »
    branegames wrote: »
    I wanna give props to Intrepid for giving us a date as to when APOC will be coming back, as I was getting rather nervous about it's return and in conjunction the progression of the other testing phases. I did however find there to be still a lot of fluff in the letter and it was quite short. I would've loved to hear more about the A1 progression, as a lot of the focus seems to have switched to the BR (and yes I do know that the BR is currently a testing ground for Ashes of Creation).

    The video was nice and so was the voting for pets - though I don't think it fits into the letter, as it only concerns those who backed the KS

    I would overall just really like to see things presented more in an MMO fashion.

    I keep seeing comments like this which confuse me. What exactly do you mean by "presented in a more MMO fashion?"

    Put into the MMO world instead of the BR, as well as seeing exactly how the different BR systems will be integrated into the MMO

    I believe that Steven said, that all the things (assets etc) from the BR are actually made for the MMORPG.

    I know, but seeing them demonstrated in an MMO setting would make the BR seem much more reasonable to me at least. The way that they are integrated into the MMO is a huge deal, because a lot of the BR has to do with the combat.

    Overall the BR has left me kind of confused (this is something I wrote in another post about the BR) as the team did have arena maps ready for use at PAX about a year ago. I still don't quite understand why the team wouldn't just use those maps to essentially do what the BR does, whilst also providing the ability to test the MMO

    That's exactly what they are doing. How do you know that the areas we have seen in APOC aren't also going to be used in the mmo?
    volunteer_moderator.gif
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    branegames wrote: »
    damokles wrote: »
    branegames wrote: »
    branegames wrote: »
    I wanna give props to Intrepid for giving us a date as to when APOC will be coming back, as I was getting rather nervous about it's return and in conjunction the progression of the other testing phases. I did however find there to be still a lot of fluff in the letter and it was quite short. I would've loved to hear more about the A1 progression, as a lot of the focus seems to have switched to the BR (and yes I do know that the BR is currently a testing ground for Ashes of Creation).

    The video was nice and so was the voting for pets - though I don't think it fits into the letter, as it only concerns those who backed the KS

    I would overall just really like to see things presented more in an MMO fashion.

    I keep seeing comments like this which confuse me. What exactly do you mean by "presented in a more MMO fashion?"

    Put into the MMO world instead of the BR, as well as seeing exactly how the different BR systems will be integrated into the MMO

    I believe that Steven said, that all the things (assets etc) from the BR are actually made for the MMORPG.

    I know, but seeing them demonstrated in an MMO setting would make the BR seem much more reasonable to me at least. The way that they are integrated into the MMO is a huge deal, because a lot of the BR has to do with the combat.

    Overall the BR has left me kind of confused (this is something I wrote in another post about the BR) as the team did have arena maps ready for use at PAX about a year ago. I still don't quite understand why the team wouldn't just use those maps to essentially do what the BR does, whilst also providing the ability to test the MMO

    That's exactly what they are doing. How do you know that the areas we have seen in APOC aren't also going to be used in the mmo?

    how do you know that they will ^^
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    The “MMO” people are asking to see the MMORPG maps - but the devs want us to discover those in-game.
    They want to see Node progression and NPCs and mobs, but the APOC testing is really just testing action combat - though we will get a taste of mobs with Horde Mode.

    APOC gives us a taste of MMORPG environments, biomes, buildings, props and destruction, but some of the buildings, like the huts, are generic, rather than being representative of one of the Ashes racial architecture styles.

    Patience is a virtue.
  • AmistAmist Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    branegames wrote: »
    damokles wrote: »
    branegames wrote: »
    branegames wrote: »
    I wanna give props to Intrepid for giving us a date as to when APOC will be coming back, as I was getting rather nervous about it's return and in conjunction the progression of the other testing phases. I did however find there to be still a lot of fluff in the letter and it was quite short. I would've loved to hear more about the A1 progression, as a lot of the focus seems to have switched to the BR (and yes I do know that the BR is currently a testing ground for Ashes of Creation).

    The video was nice and so was the voting for pets - though I don't think it fits into the letter, as it only concerns those who backed the KS

    I would overall just really like to see things presented more in an MMO fashion.

    I keep seeing comments like this which confuse me. What exactly do you mean by "presented in a more MMO fashion?"

    Put into the MMO world instead of the BR, as well as seeing exactly how the different BR systems will be integrated into the MMO

    I believe that Steven said, that all the things (assets etc) from the BR are actually made for the MMORPG.

    I know, but seeing them demonstrated in an MMO setting would make the BR seem much more reasonable to me at least. The way that they are integrated into the MMO is a huge deal, because a lot of the BR has to do with the combat.

    Overall the BR has left me kind of confused (this is something I wrote in another post about the BR) as the team did have arena maps ready for use at PAX about a year ago. I still don't quite understand why the team wouldn't just use those maps to essentially do what the BR does, whilst also providing the ability to test the MMO

    That's exactly what they are doing. How do you know that the areas we have seen in APOC aren't also going to be used in the mmo?

    The way that things dynamically work together in an MMO and in a BR are vastly different.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    dygz wrote: »
    The “MMO” people are asking to see the MMORPG maps - but the devs want us to discover those in-game.
    They want to see Node progression and NPCs and mobs, but the APOC testing is really just testing action combat - though we will get a taste of mobs with Horde Mode.

    APOC gives us a taste of MMORPG environments, biomes, buildings, props and destruction, but some of the buildings, like the huts, are generic, rather than being representative of one of the Ashes racial architecture styles.

    Patience is a virtue.

    I do want to see how the world is in horde mode. im expecting hell on verra ^^
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Which is why we will have access to the BR while they continue to prep access to the MMORPG game mechanics.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    dygz wrote: »
    Which is why we will have access to the BR while they continue to prep access to the MMORPG game mechanics.

    true I suppose. at least a get to see the new lore
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • AmistAmist Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    dygz wrote: »
    The “MMO” people are asking to see the MMORPG maps - but the devs want us to discover those in-game.
    They want to see Node progression and NPCs and mobs, but the APOC testing is really just testing action combat - though we will get a taste of mobs with Horde Mode.

    APOC gives us a taste of MMORPG environments, biomes, buildings, props and destruction, but some of the buildings, like the huts, are generic, rather than being representative of one of the Ashes racial architecture styles.

    Patience is a virtue.

    You can be patient and still look forward to seeing more, as well as want to eventually see it.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I wonder if we will see any hybrid combat in apoc yet?
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    APOC is supposed to remain action combat only, AFAIK.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    dygz wrote: »
    APOC is supposed to remain action combat only, AFAIK.

    well that's a shame I was hoping so see more tab targeting in the next phase o testing
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • ravetgnravetgn Member
    edited July 2019
    Here's my angry humble opinion,

    The letter is bleak, no matter how you look at it. A tweet stating "Glorious Ashes Community, thank you for your continued support, all of us here at IS are still hard at work. Please stay tuned." would've served the same. Which is fine, it just doesn't deserve a "Director's letter" title.

    Meaning that we understand they had to back-pedal to nail the best combat system possible, we understand that building an MMO is an unbelievable task and that AoC in particular is so ambitious it will take a lot of time. Iteration, iteration, iteration. We also understand that they have to remain cautious when unveiling gameplay footage...

    But since we want AoC to succeed I feel compelled to remind you people that there are 2 more "crowdfunded new-age MMOs" in development that slowly but steadily seem to be gaining ground on Ashes. I don't intend to sound alarmist nor do I intend to change horses (I want to support and follow AoC from launch and beyond) but at least the others are showing us progress on the persistent world, not spread parts from a testing suite that we have to assume will translate properly or as Steven likes to say "it's synonymous to the MMORPG" when Apoc already struggled with performance issues and other technicalities. The other games forums frankly have developed a stronger flow of users and content basically because there is more information to speculate about, and that does worry me.

    I couldn't care less about beating them to market and IS has definetely approached this last year with a lot of professionalism. Yet, ironically, the "results" (meaning what we/the community get to see) have never felt so amateur. And I truly hope the next Apoc build showcases the improvements they keep talking about in stream, because if it doesn't, I have a feeling that the AoC fandom will keep on shrinking.

    I mean, what would be so wrong (if the map is really intended to be huge) to show us one single zone, even if it is just one tiny portion. What would be so wrong about showing us one PvE critter (not the fucking mushrooms) in-game to get a grasp on how PvE mobs will behave and attack regarding the hybrid combat system... I mean, are they going to get telegraphs for their skills? Or just autoattacks + targeted skills? Just walk us through a stupid-ass quest, 5-6 minutes of footage of a party doing something. I honestly prefer every single Alpha 0 video to all this smoke we're getting lately. I mean, the caravan video is as bleak as the letter.

    It is getting tedious having to take everything they say, and the little they show, with a grain of salt. And it feels like the truly active users in these forums are not honest with IS, the other users, or themselves for that matter.

    Edit: Oh, I forgot. There's also one other sad consequence of all this. That this new way of sharing information is unavoidably spreading towards the 3-4 content creators who already decided to "marry" AoC as their new main pillar of content. So not only do we have official content of dubious quality, but as a direct result, all the external videos and/or podcasts about AoC are getting boring and bleak aswell.

    At least the flip-flop signet looks cool, right? ...
  • Not really keen on what they had to say about the mayor system. Voting is always abused by alts, large guilds, or just general stupidity. Seems like a lot of control to put into one character. Not seeing much of the system though, but on first blush it makes me think of Archeage voting and the complete cluster it turned out to be.
  • VarkunVarkun Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Only one of the 4 systems is voted on to elect a mayor one is by pvp combat another is decided by wealth and the 4th is decided by religious influence. Exactly how these systems work has yet to be revealed but that is the basics.

    link to the wiki
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Node_elections
    3KAqRIf.png
    Close your eyes spread your arms and always trust your cape.
  • Thanks for the link. Not sure I like any of the other options either. Quests/gold are time played, arena combat will always favor specific classes because of their nature, or voting... is building only allowed in nodes? Could you have a guild hall out in the wilderness kind of node and ignore this stuff if you wanted?
  • VarkunVarkun Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    It has been said there will be guild hall plots that will work similar to freeholds but for guilds, they need to be unlocked as a guild perk or so as was hinted at. The node you build the guildhall in may need to be of a certain size before you can build said guildhall.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Guild_halls

    Keep in mind that all of this will be tested through Alpha 1 and beyond and will be subject to change. This is why we need to provide constructive feedback so that necessary changes can be made.
    3KAqRIf.png
    Close your eyes spread your arms and always trust your cape.
  • Thanks. Yea its early days, lots changes.
  • mozsta69mozsta69 Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    The communication through the letter, the dev diary has certainly picked up and is appreciated.
  • Rem_Rem_ Member
    mozsta69 wrote: »
    The communication through the letter, the dev diary has certainly picked up and is appreciated.

    That's how I feel, I'm glad they're uploading these videos to youtube showing the creation of stuff and opening up again a bit more. I hope this next test tomorrow goes well so things will be heading in a good direction!
    Poko.png
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