Exp loss upon PvE death

Currently I am playing ffxiv eso.
I have played tera and bdo, and I must say I find death in mmorpgs these days extremelly meh.....

Back in 2003-2009 that I was playing Line][Age gaining 4% of a Level was about 2h solid exp in mid levels, 2 days xp in near high lvs and a week of xp in 78lv.

Upon death there was a good chance to drop inventory items and a rare chance to drop PRECIOUS equiped gear.
Needless to say that some areas that offered good xp, mats/part and loot were difficult to reach on a small group of 3-4 ppl and wiping was dreaded.

At high levels if a group wiped the guild would have to send a group escorting a healer to rez us in order to receive full XP back.

In most mmorpgs now there is no xp loss,
1) you can mount and reach an area in two minutes (or use GF and go to an instance in a few minutes)
2) auto rez on the spot
3) teleport back to the location in the blink of an eye.

I honestly feel sleepy playing most mmorpgs now.

I never liked features such a death penatly (debuffs for X amount of time) but the fear of losing XP and having to make my way back in the location I was made adventuring and exploration SO GOOD. Not too keen on being afraid to lose gear upon death.

What does the community think about loss of exp upon death?

****** please understand the concept and then participate in convo. Also understand what game AoC is trying to become. Did not expect this to be such a heated topic.*****

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Comments

Azathoth

Loss of xp can be tied to level loss. I would be an opponent of level loss. Xp debt allows the same penalty, but instead of level loss, adds to the XP needed for the next level. Having some penalties associated with that seems a good deterrent as well.

Gear loss would be painful, but loss of some supplies seems reasonable. Especially if tied to/with gear degradation.

I am 100% on board with having to back track. I just don't want to do that without my gear. I would be against teleporting back and I am not a fan of any fast travel.

Segomod

Everquest did this same thing and to counter the exp loss, cleric's could resurrect you back with a percentage of the experience returned. Their first rez didn't give anything, but it increased as they leveled up, and I think it went all the way up to 96%. It sucked because you could Delevel after just hitting that level where you would get all of your spells as a mage or wizard, and then not be able to cast them because you have to be 29 or w/e level you dropped from which put fear into people

Shoklen

^ I remember those Everquest 1 days.... It was quite the sting.. In my time in that game it also built community and pretty much everyone was nice to Clerics, especially those that could return a chunk of experience.

I know its not always the case, but now a days it seems like a lot of people just treat others like garbage in the games. This was compounded with cross-server groups.

I also remember in EQ1 where necromancers would pay good coin to fill their gems with the "deaths" of sacrificed players. Meaning they would cast the spell on a willing player, the spell would kill that player, that player would then looses EX (and possible level).. in turn the necromancer received a "filled" gem used as a component for another spell. That was actually pretty cool. Not sure if that changed over the years.. I'm sure it was..

I also remember De-Level races.. How fast could you delevel your high level character back down to like level 10.. haha..

mrwaffles

George Black wrote: »

Currently I am playing ffxiv eso.
I have played tera and bdo, and I must say I find death in mmorpgs these days extremelly meh.....

Back in 2003-2009 that I was playing Line][Age gaining 4% of a Level was about 2h solid exp in mid levels, 2 days xp in near high lvs and a week of xp in 78lv.

L2 vet here too, I love this idea with some significant improvements. The down leveling should not be a thing. This way it can discourage bots from farming one area till they peek then killing them selves to go back down to a profitable level. Dropping gear is a big no no but as for losing more than just XP how about stats? when you die your stats are reduced in some way. Like a debuff that can only be cleansed by some NPC in town or a healer class. This buff is also compounded, the more you die the more your stats go to the pooper. When you res you have a 3 minute avoidance of this buff if you die again (so as to not stop you from dying right after rezing).If you do get rezed (self or by healer) you will have to either deal with the reduction of stats on site or run/port back to town and trec back to your spot. This idea is similar to L2s PK debuff but modified as a death penalty.

unknownsystemerror

The mechanic they plan for this has already been explained. As always there is the caveat that during testing they may decide to change it. As it stands right now there is indeed negative exp from all deaths. Depending on flagging state at time of death determines the severity of the negative exp gained. There is NO deleveling from negative exp. You do gain a progressive stat debuff as the negative exp pool grows larger to the point that you may become ineffective in combat, thus leading to an even higher time sink. If you can't kill mobs effectively because you have let it accrue, working it off will take some doing. Also note that this stat debuff is separate from the corruption stat debuff you get at higher levels of corruption. Partial reasoning for these mechanics come from the tryhards that have populated these boards with statements of "Once I am level 50(or 60 now after todays livestream slip) I will just gank noobs outside the starting area all day, and no one can stop me. I laugh at your corruption!"

ArgentDawn

mrwaffles wrote: »

George Black wrote: »

Currently I am playing ffxiv eso.
I have played tera and bdo, and I must say I find death in mmorpgs these days extremelly meh.....

Back in 2003-2009 that I was playing Line][Age gaining 4% of a Level was about 2h solid exp in mid levels, 2 days xp in near high lvs and a week of xp in 78lv.

L2 vet here too, I love this idea with some significant improvements. The down leveling should not be a thing. This way it can discourage bots from farming one area till they peek then killing them selves to go back down to a profitable level. Dropping gear is a big no no but as for losing more than just XP how about stats? when you die your stats are reduced in some way. Like a debuff that can only be cleansed by some NPC in town or a healer class. This buff is also compounded, the more you die the more your stats go to the pooper. When you res you have a 3 minute avoidance of this buff if you die again (so as to not stop you from dying right after rezing).If you do get rezed (self or by healer) you will have to either deal with the reduction of stats on site or run/port back to town and trec back to your spot. This idea is similar to L2s PK debuff but modified as a death penalty.

The debuffs on death are a horrible idea, all it does is encourage you to go afk while you wait for a timer or make a mad dash to someone to cleanse it as a currency sink. I prefer the days of FFXI you would lose exp on death so obviously you tried to avoid dying. On "raid" nights you could lose a level or 2 and then you'd go out with a party the next day get your levels back with a buffer and prepare for the next raid type event. Having a character with raise abilities that reduce exp loss is ideal that way you don't always lose full exp. Personally I think Ashes is going the wrong way with the exp debt thing and degrading stats until it's gone.

Don't get me wrong it adds a little weight to death but if you've already lost one fight with full stats what makes you think your gonna go back and win it with a debuff

unknownsystemerror

I have seen nothing to indicate that negative exp will magically go away over time. They have stated that corruption can only be removed through death (thus giving negative exp) or religious node specific quests. Would be strange for them to cut the nuts off their system meant to keep people from just suiciding to content that is too hard for them, or allow pk alts to just afk away the consequences of corruption deaths.

ArgentDawn

unknownsystemerror wrote: »

I have seen nothing to indicate that negative exp will magically go away over time. They have stated that corruption can only be removed through death (thus giving negative exp) or religious node specific quests. Would be strange for them to cut the nuts off their system meant to keep people from just suiciding to content that is too hard for them, or allow pk alts to just afk away the consequences of corruption deaths.

Yea I misread a post and saw a "timer" as protection from having the debuff reapplied from dying consecutively in a short time frame.

Your right the system as is I think will work ok but I don't think it's severe enough on paper so we will see. it doesn't make sense to me that you would die in challenging content only to be punished with a stat loss to go back and face that same content.

As long as you lose skills, abilities, or efficiency's similar to actually deleveling without actually losing a level with enough exp debt I think it'll be fine.

unknownsystemerror

They did say they are looking at reducing the penalty in the area around dungeons and raids. How they work that out since the majority of dungeons, raids, and world bosses are said to be open world over instanced remains to be seen. They might make that for instanced areas only. Cause if I knew that lying in wait for people to pull mobs and bosses in open world gave me a reduced penalty in a certain area, that is where my pk'in would take place.

Tatiana

Honestly I really do not have any desire what-so-ever to experience XP loss in a MMORPG ever again. I believe a game can be fun and exciting without the penalties for dying being that severe and irritating, that penalty really only serves as a very unwelcome time sink for most people that left many players feeling like they just lost and threw away a lot of valuable time because they made a mistake. It was done away with because people hated it and ultimately punished people of different skill levels and time availability for taking risks and playing the game, and honestly while I understand the thought behind penalties to make people try to be more thoughtful in how they play the game, this is not one that would go over well with most people since it can be very alienating for more casual players.

I do somewhat agree with the over-automation in MMO's, though, and MMO game worlds feeling smaller and smaller, even if they aren't, simply because of too many instant-travel options.

Azathoth

Then the penalty for death is nothing? Meaning you just grind/die/run until you are through an area?

If there are no penalties, and time sink is a concern, then why have death at all? Maybe just a 3 second time out?

I am a big time casual player. I am also a fan of RPGs. So I understand the loss of character progression and time needed to restore that. Players that are uncomfortable with that type of play style may be looking for a FPS MMO as opposed to a MMORPG.

I understand the concern, but also find it, along with leveling, a core mechanic of the genre.

Gizban

I support death penalties.

My first MMO was Asheron's Call. They had an xp deficit, a stacking stat debuff, and you would lose your highest monetary valued items, starting with cash, gems, and so forth. If you kept dying, and your last item on you was worth 1c, you lost it. YOu had an hour to get back to your corpse to reclaim you items, after that anyone could get them.

We could counter the item lose by carrying valuable but worthless items like gems and jewelry.

unknownsystemerror

Gear loss (except from durability and not repairing it) only comes from dying at high levels of corruption currently stated. It is random and can include legendary unique items. The mechanic on whether dropped or destroyed is still being decided on.

MrPancake

tatiana wrote: »

Honestly I really do not have any desire what-so-ever to experience XP loss in a MMORPG ever again. I believe a game can be fun and exciting without the penalties for dying being that severe and irritating, that penalty really only serves as a very unwelcome time sink for most people that left many players feeling like they just lost and threw away a lot of valuable time because they made a mistake. It was done away with because people hated it and ultimately punished people of different skill levels and time availability for taking risks and playing the game, and honestly while I understand the thought behind penalties to make people try to be more thoughtful in how they play the game, this is not one that would go over well with most people since it can be very alienating for more casual players.

I do somewhat agree with the over-automation in MMO's, though, and MMO game worlds feeling smaller and smaller, even if they aren't, simply because of too many instant-travel options.

Then why should they even let you die? You can do mindless grinds without penalties.
IMO, the problem with MMORPG these days is that people want it all without much effort. That's also the reason MMORPG's are dying. Take WOW for example. You grind multiple mobs, almost never die and as a newcomer, a month later you're max level. Great. The leveling experience and being scared to face certain mobs just fades away. Then all of a sudden you're max level but feel no accomplishment because, damn, my unborn baby could get to max level in a week without dying.

It shouldn't matter if I can only play 1 hour a day (probably 2-3h a day though) too. Playing 1 hour every 3 days shouldn't get you to max level in a short period.

Wandering Mist

I've been thinking about this topic for awhile now and I think it's important to state that putting death penalties into a game doesn't necessarily make it harder, just more punishing to play. And as with a lot of things in games I believe there needs to be a reason for it. With that in mind I have a question:

Why should players be punished for dying in an mmorpg? What does the game hope to achieve by punishing the player?

It's only once you understand this that you can decide what kind of punishment (if any) is appropriate for the game. Putting in death penalties just for the sake of it or because "[insert school-mmorpg here] did it and I really liked that game" is pointless.

Shoklen

I don't mind death having a bite to it.. xp loss.. level loss.. I don't mind. I played vanilla EQ1 as a Dwarf Paladin..Both the Race+Class had a combined xp penality of 45%.. When I died in that game, the bite was that much harder compared to any other race/class combination.. This was of course removed a few years after release and every class/race combination gained at the same rate.. So I use this just as an example.

On the flip side, EQ2, death is basically the "poor mans" teleport. It's no good when death can actually have an advantage.. ug..

Azathoth

Death *penalties aren't* a punishment, *they're* a result of failing.

*Edits, not emphasis

Wandering Mist

Azathoth wrote: »

Death *penalties aren't* a punishment, *they're* a result of failing.

*Edits, not emphasis

No, your character dying is the result of failing. Death penalties are extra punishments on top of that. It's like giving someone an exam, and if they fail the exam not only do they have to take the exam again, but do 1000 pushups as well.

Azathoth

But if you fail the exam, your overall score in whatever is most likely decreased. But you didn't mention the lowering of an average grade due to failing the test because it's part of failing the test.

Your example would be failing the test and then that score not mattering at all to your overall performance, which would make trying to take the test pointless. There would be no reason to make effort.

unknownsystemerror

In a game with no fast travel, open world "loot spoiling", and anytime pvp, death penalties are there to stop people cheesing game mechanics. Want to get back to the city quicker? Suicide off nearest cliff. Oh, this respawn point wasn't the one I wanted. Jump again. Want to stop people from being able to loot "your" mobs? Pull as many as you can and run around till you die. Oh look, that group is about to pull that boss. I will tag it, even though it one shots me, because I know the loot timer is 5 minutes. I will have plenty of time to get back, and do it again, and again. Depending on how long the tag timer is you have blocked others. No penalty for griefing? Make as many pk alts as you want. When they get too stat reduced due to corruption, just jump off that cliff you used earlier. No penalty for dying, so why not? Look, now my corruption is clear, I can go back to killing flower pickers. Several other examples as to why they plan to have these penalties beyond making your life hard, but those should give you a start.

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