Azathoth wrote: » I like to think we are not dogs or children and can handle exp debt as a risk for adventuring. Again, I am a casual with no more than 3-6 hours a week. Usually averaging 6-9 hours a month. "So I'll ask again: what is the purpose of having exp loss upon death in Ashes of Creation?" To discourage reckless behavior, or behavior stemming from not being penalized when in over the characters level or player's current skill. To encourage players to explore other areas or back track*. To give a higher sense of accomplishment knowing that extra effort had to be put in to recoup loss after a failure. To give meaning to failing and death. To follow the general theme of risk vs reward. *Back tracking can be good, those considering it punishment due to time constraints really do need to reconsider the types of games they invest in. Honestly, asking for a respawn after dying without consequences might be a more traditional way of thinking about. Because not having consequences for failure in an RPG is for sure something I have never heard of before. Personally I am usually against tradition, but in this case the other option seems to make the game more boring. -Is this area too much for my character to handle? Who cares, I'll just respawn. -Is that other character too strong for me to challenge to PvP? Who cares, I'll just respawn. -Is this legendary treasure worth risking death for? Yes! I'll just respawn. Anyone that considers any outcome from a game as punishment has the option to avoid that punishment. Also, as for not punishing disobedience. Teaching children there are no consequences to their actions, I'll stop here. No need to go on a pointless rant about...
Wandering Mist wrote: » Azathoth wrote: » I like to think we are not dogs or children and can handle exp debt as a risk for adventuring. Again, I am a casual with no more than 3-6 hours a week. Usually averaging 6-9 hours a month. "So I'll ask again: what is the purpose of having exp loss upon death in Ashes of Creation?" To discourage reckless behavior, or behavior stemming from not being penalized when in over the characters level or player's current skill. To encourage players to explore other areas or back track*. To give a higher sense of accomplishment knowing that extra effort had to be put in to recoup loss after a failure. To give meaning to failing and death. To follow the general theme of risk vs reward. *Back tracking can be good, those considering it punishment due to time constraints really do need to reconsider the types of games they invest in. Honestly, asking for a respawn after dying without consequences might be a more traditional way of thinking about. Because not having consequences for failure in an RPG is for sure something I have never heard of before. Personally I am usually against tradition, but in this case the other option seems to make the game more boring. -Is this area too much for my character to handle? Who cares, I'll just respawn. -Is that other character too strong for me to challenge to PvP? Who cares, I'll just respawn. -Is this legendary treasure worth risking death for? Yes! I'll just respawn. Anyone that considers any outcome from a game as punishment has the option to avoid that punishment. Also, as for not punishing disobedience. Teaching children there are no consequences to their actions, I'll stop here. No need to go on a pointless rant about... Why would you want to discourage "reckless" behaviour? If you put exp loss upon death into the game, the players will learn to play very conservatively, never pushing the boundaries or challenging themselves for fear of losing their hard earned exp. Is this a good thing? Personally I think it's a bad thing because it halts a person's progression. You know those highlight reels where a player does an amazing move and escapes with just a slither of health? They can only do that if they know the limits of their character, and you only learn those limits by trial and error. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Caeryl wrote: » Wandering Mist wrote: » Azathoth wrote: » I like to think we are not dogs or children and can handle exp debt as a risk for adventuring. Again, I am a casual with no more than 3-6 hours a week. Usually averaging 6-9 hours a month. "So I'll ask again: what is the purpose of having exp loss upon death in Ashes of Creation?" To discourage reckless behavior, or behavior stemming from not being penalized when in over the characters level or player's current skill. To encourage players to explore other areas or back track*. To give a higher sense of accomplishment knowing that extra effort had to be put in to recoup loss after a failure. To give meaning to failing and death. To follow the general theme of risk vs reward. *Back tracking can be good, those considering it punishment due to time constraints really do need to reconsider the types of games they invest in. Honestly, asking for a respawn after dying without consequences might be a more traditional way of thinking about. Because not having consequences for failure in an RPG is for sure something I have never heard of before. Personally I am usually against tradition, but in this case the other option seems to make the game more boring. -Is this area too much for my character to handle? Who cares, I'll just respawn. -Is that other character too strong for me to challenge to PvP? Who cares, I'll just respawn. -Is this legendary treasure worth risking death for? Yes! I'll just respawn. Anyone that considers any outcome from a game as punishment has the option to avoid that punishment. Also, as for not punishing disobedience. Teaching children there are no consequences to their actions, I'll stop here. No need to go on a pointless rant about... Why would you want to discourage "reckless" behaviour? If you put exp loss upon death into the game, the players will learn to play very conservatively, never pushing the boundaries or challenging themselves for fear of losing their hard earned exp. Is this a good thing? Personally I think it's a bad thing because it halts a person's progression. You know those highlight reels where a player does an amazing move and escapes with just a slither of health? They can only do that if they know the limits of their character, and you only learn those limits by trial and error. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. If there is no consequence at all for dying, then you absolutely will see “shortcuts” as I like to call them “Shortcuts” are fast travel via dying, which is a very popular system in ESO because it has negligible penalty for dying. Another fun one is “vertical shortcuts” and the like, where you intentionally jump off cliffs to get down faster, or use the stage of invulnerability during a respawn to get place you aren’t supposed to be. Or the “big pull shortcuts” in dungeons where you skip ahead by pulling every mobs on the way to a boss, intentionally dying to lose aggro, then fighting the boss. So after seeing all the results of a death system with ignorable penalties, I’d ask why you would want such a handholding sustem that won’t even punish someone for doing stupid, obviously unintended things. Exp debt, the system ashes is going to be using, is not going to take exp away. It doesn’t delevel you and it doesn’t remove your available skills. It starts eating your combat power (after very likely more than a small amount of deaths) so people stop throwing themselves at a challenge they have no business approaching right now. Punishing reckless behavior and unpreparedness, rewarding preparation and thoughtful engagements, giving even more reward to those who explore far and wide and take on the hardest content. It sounds like a very fair system
SoulsOnFire wrote: » tatiana wrote: » Honestly I really do not have any desire what-so-ever to experience XP loss in a MMORPG ever again. I believe a game can be fun and exciting without the penalties for dying being that severe and irritating, that penalty really only serves as a very unwelcome time sink for most people that left many players feeling like they just lost and threw away a lot of valuable time because they made a mistake. It was done away with because people hated it and ultimately punished people of different skill levels and time availability for taking risks and playing the game, and honestly while I understand the thought behind penalties to make people try to be more thoughtful in how they play the game, this is not one that would go over well with most people since it can be very alienating for more casual players. I do somewhat agree with the over-automation in MMO's, though, and MMO game worlds feeling smaller and smaller, even if they aren't, simply because of too many instant-travel options. Then why should they even let you die? You can do mindless grinds without penalties. IMO, the problem with MMORPG these days is that people want it all without much effort. That's also the reason MMORPG's are dying. Take WOW for example. You grind multiple mobs, almost never die and as a newcomer, a month later you're max level. Great. The leveling experience and being scared to face certain mobs just fades away. Then all of a sudden you're max level but feel no accomplishment because, damn, my unborn baby could get to max level in a week without dying. It shouldn't matter if I can only play 1 hour a day (probably 2-3h a day though) too. Playing 1 hour every 3 days shouldn't get you to max level in a short period.
tatiana wrote: » Honestly I really do not have any desire what-so-ever to experience XP loss in a MMORPG ever again. I believe a game can be fun and exciting without the penalties for dying being that severe and irritating, that penalty really only serves as a very unwelcome time sink for most people that left many players feeling like they just lost and threw away a lot of valuable time because they made a mistake. It was done away with because people hated it and ultimately punished people of different skill levels and time availability for taking risks and playing the game, and honestly while I understand the thought behind penalties to make people try to be more thoughtful in how they play the game, this is not one that would go over well with most people since it can be very alienating for more casual players. I do somewhat agree with the over-automation in MMO's, though, and MMO game worlds feeling smaller and smaller, even if they aren't, simply because of too many instant-travel options.
Wandering Mist wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Wandering Mist wrote: » Azathoth wrote: » I like to think we are not dogs or children and can handle exp debt as a risk for adventuring. Again, I am a casual with no more than 3-6 hours a week. Usually averaging 6-9 hours a month. "So I'll ask again: what is the purpose of having exp loss upon death in Ashes of Creation?" To discourage reckless behavior, or behavior stemming from not being penalized when in over the characters level or player's current skill. To encourage players to explore other areas or back track*. To give a higher sense of accomplishment knowing that extra effort had to be put in to recoup loss after a failure. To give meaning to failing and death. To follow the general theme of risk vs reward. *Back tracking can be good, those considering it punishment due to time constraints really do need to reconsider the types of games they invest in. Honestly, asking for a respawn after dying without consequences might be a more traditional way of thinking about. Because not having consequences for failure in an RPG is for sure something I have never heard of before. Personally I am usually against tradition, but in this case the other option seems to make the game more boring. -Is this area too much for my character to handle? Who cares, I'll just respawn. -Is that other character too strong for me to challenge to PvP? Who cares, I'll just respawn. -Is this legendary treasure worth risking death for? Yes! I'll just respawn. Anyone that considers any outcome from a game as punishment has the option to avoid that punishment. Also, as for not punishing disobedience. Teaching children there are no consequences to their actions, I'll stop here. No need to go on a pointless rant about... Why would you want to discourage "reckless" behaviour? If you put exp loss upon death into the game, the players will learn to play very conservatively, never pushing the boundaries or challenging themselves for fear of losing their hard earned exp. Is this a good thing? Personally I think it's a bad thing because it halts a person's progression. You know those highlight reels where a player does an amazing move and escapes with just a slither of health? They can only do that if they know the limits of their character, and you only learn those limits by trial and error. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. If there is no consequence at all for dying, then you absolutely will see “shortcuts” as I like to call them “Shortcuts” are fast travel via dying, which is a very popular system in ESO because it has negligible penalty for dying. Another fun one is “vertical shortcuts” and the like, where you intentionally jump off cliffs to get down faster, or use the stage of invulnerability during a respawn to get place you aren’t supposed to be. Or the “big pull shortcuts” in dungeons where you skip ahead by pulling every mobs on the way to a boss, intentionally dying to lose aggro, then fighting the boss. So after seeing all the results of a death system with ignorable penalties, I’d ask why you would want such a handholding sustem that won’t even punish someone for doing stupid, obviously unintended things. Exp debt, the system ashes is going to be using, is not going to take exp away. It doesn’t delevel you and it doesn’t remove your available skills. It starts eating your combat power (after very likely more than a small amount of deaths) so people stop throwing themselves at a challenge they have no business approaching right now. Punishing reckless behavior and unpreparedness, rewarding preparation and thoughtful engagements, giving even more reward to those who explore far and wide and take on the hardest content. It sounds like a very fair system Death warp abuse is always a tricky thing to handle but there are ways to combat it that don't involve a lot of death penalties.
Ravudha wrote: » Personally, I dislike XP loss upon death because it's never added anything to the game experience other than having to do repetitive boring work to recoup the XP. It just makes the game less fun. To me, possible gear damage, using up consumables in failed attempts, and having to run back is enough of a penalty - these are consequences for dying. For harder challenges like raids these penalties really add up.
blackhearted wrote: » Whats the penalty when ure max lv?
Dygz wrote: » blackhearted wrote: » Whats the penalty when ure max lv? Great rhetorical question. I am expecting other forms of xp progression (and death penalty debt) besides just Adventurer progression.
SoulsOnFire wrote: » Ravudha wrote: » Personally, I dislike XP loss upon death because it's never added anything to the game experience other than having to do repetitive boring work to recoup the XP. It just makes the game less fun. To me, possible gear damage, using up consumables in failed attempts, and having to run back is enough of a penalty - these are consequences for dying. For harder challenges like raids these penalties really add up. They should have a different system for raids and stuff, obviously. So what happens with the people who die because of convenience? As explained above by someone else.
SoulsOnFire wrote: » I really can not understand people who say there shouldn't be ANY loss upon death.
insomnia wrote: » SoulsOnFire wrote: » I really can not understand people who say there shouldn't be ANY loss upon death. I don't understand why you SHOULD have any lose. Some of us don't have time to play 24/7. We got job and/or school. Do a sport, got friends, family, a parter etc. I used to play nwn1 and 2. I was on a server for one of them, where when you died, you lost all the xp in your current level, and ½ into the previous level. They did this because they wanted people to team up. There wasn't that many people to begin with. People left and everything i looked, there wasn't anyone online. But for me, it depends on how harsh the death penalty is, how much xp you gain as you play and how though the game is = how often do you die. They already said not all classes will be able to solo or will have a hard time with it. So that makes it sound like the leveling can be tough. If the leveling takes as long as it did in vanilla (i'm not talking about classis, where i hear it goes faster and the game is easyer. I'm refering to the original vanilla wow). Adding in a death penalty can do so people will just quit, because they will never reach max level, especialy if you make the game just as hard. Remember how often you at times died in dungeons? Add in the dungeons are openworld = more lag? and others can also come and kill you. You shouldn't have finised a dungeon and come out with less xp, than when you went it. It can just do so people will play it very safe, barely explore or challenge themself. If the game is as tough as vanilla wow and the leveling is as slow and the add in a death penalty, then i think the game deservers to die and burn.
wolfwood82 wrote: » SoulsOnFire wrote: » Wandering Mist wrote: » So I'll ask again: what is the purpose of having exp loss upon death in Ashes of Creation? I think you really have to read what others have said multiple times already I don't think he does. I don't have to read everyone's response to know that maybe 10% of the people understand that death penalties are generally spankings that are administered for injuries sustained by ignoring advice. Know the best and fastest way to teach an AI? It works for humans and dogs too, you ignore it for disobedience, reward it for mistakes (or exploring for dogs and kids), and reward it MORE for successes. This convinces the Intelligence to take risks, but always leads it back to seeking the most favorable results. Know what the least effective methods are? Simple punishment for disobedience and mistakes, and reward for success. This stunts the growth of the Intelligence in question, forcing it to strictly stick to a singular path and discouraging it from trying new things, because any unknown can result in punishment while certain knowns will always result in reward. Same concept applies to game theory and human behavior in games. If a player faces too much risk and loss for death, they won't pursue high risk adventures. Stacking too much penalty on PvP death in particular leads to players seeking zero or low risk scenarios and avoiding high risk ones. In games that rely on PvP (planetside for example), death penalty is all but non-existent. Interruption of play is actually a punishment in itself, and is punishment enough to drive up adrenaline. Interruption of play is actually quite literally how puppies learn muscle control and restraint when biting each other in play. If one puppy bites the other too hard, the other puppy yelps and backs off, play comes to a stop, and the first puppy focuses more and more on avoiding that interruption. Humans can teach puppies and dogs to restrain themselves when biting by yelping and stopping whatever they are seeing as "play", because that's how they learned to adjust themselves when playing with litter mates. All intelligences learn by experimenting with options, and figuring out the most rewarding action with the least cost. What Wanderingmist is asking is, how does experience loss/debt/whatever contribute to the play of the game? And don't respond with "it drives adrenaline!", no it doesn't. The only thing experience loss does is piss players off. Meanwhile, you have rewards for taking risks in PvP in the form of looting materials which, I'd hope, have significant value attached to them. Loss of this material is punishment for loss in PvP as well, and will be a loss on top of experience. Why should I go out and gather materials when the act of collecting materials is a high risk endeavor compared to killing and taking materials from other players/caravans? Every time I put my head down and gather mats from any node, I open myself to attack. If I, instead, choose to attack, I never open myself to attack and instead can freely attack those who do. Where is the drive to gather mats? If I have to defend myself against a player, I flag myself for PvP and attacking me is a low risk endeavor. If I am flagged, and go gathering, I may as well paint a giant red target on my ass.
SoulsOnFire wrote: » Wandering Mist wrote: » So I'll ask again: what is the purpose of having exp loss upon death in Ashes of Creation? I think you really have to read what others have said multiple times already
Wandering Mist wrote: » So I'll ask again: what is the purpose of having exp loss upon death in Ashes of Creation?
