How many MMO fanatics, like myself are disgusted at this 'alpha' drive?!

Sorry, as a LONG time MMO player (since AC1 in 98?!), I've played more than 40 MMO's through the years. I've been following this because of Steve alone. He's essentially me, I feel. We have a common game history and outlook on what we want in an MMO. But this Arena crap is horrid. The Idea that I have to struggle through this to validate my belief in the REAL game is just a horrible idea that's going to turn SO many players like myself. If this is what I have to do to get 'rewards'. No thank you. I'm now honestly on the fence about this game. A game I've been preaching to my friends about. C'mon guys, You cant make us go through this horrid experience to show our support.

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Nagash

BCG l LordofSalt wrote: »

We get what we get. Cant change that.

But we can complain ^_^

GrinningJack

Nagash wrote: »

BCG l LordofSalt wrote: »

We get what we get. Cant change that.

But we can complain ^_^

Ohh you get shit for that, u get called toxic, negative and so many other nice words. Dont forget Frustration = flame since both words start with an F.

Ferryman

@terrorform I have accepted that the main focus is not at the moment in the MMORPG. Will it be in the future? Yeah.. maybe. In any case, there will be delays and who knows when the AoC comes out. So, I suggest to relax and check out the situation maybe once in a Q. Most importantly, give up of the hope, it helps.

Caeryl

ferryman wrote: »

@ terrorform I have accepted that the main focus is not at the moment in the MMORPG. Will it be in the future? Yeah.. maybe. In any case, there will be delays and who knows when the AoC comes out. So, I suggest to relax and check out the situation maybe once in a Q. Most importantly, give up of the hope, it helps.

Sources where you think they’ve delayed MMO progress? APOC is part of their incremental testing, the best way to force players to test combat over exploring, the best way to force players to gather around each other and provide data on how the server adapts to condensing areas of player input.

People are calling for the MMO as if we were even close to a stage of early access, and you can bet just as many will complain about the Alphas and Betas being unfinished and buggy as those who complain about APOC existing even when they present exactly no viable alternatives for testing.

Nagash

Caeryl wrote: »

ferryman wrote: »

@ terrorform I have accepted that the main focus is not at the moment in the MMORPG. Will it be in the future? Yeah.. maybe. In any case, there will be delays and who knows when the AoC comes out. So, I suggest to relax and check out the situation maybe once in a Q. Most importantly, give up of the hope, it helps.

Sources where you think they’ve delayed MMO progress? APOC is part of their incremental testing, the best way to force players to test combat over exploring, the best way to force players to gather around each other and provide data on how the server adapts to condensing areas of player input.

People are calling for the MMO as if we were even close to a stage of early access, and you can bet just as many will complain about the Alphas and Betas being unfinished and buggy as those who complain about APOC existing even when they present exactly no viable alternatives for testing.

The bit were they said before 2020 and delayed it, does that count?

Caeryl

Nagash wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

ferryman wrote: »

@ terrorform I have accepted that the main focus is not at the moment in the MMORPG. Will it be in the future? Yeah.. maybe. In any case, there will be delays and who knows when the AoC comes out. So, I suggest to relax and check out the situation maybe once in a Q. Most importantly, give up of the hope, it helps.

Sources where you think they’ve delayed MMO progress? APOC is part of their incremental testing, the best way to force players to test combat over exploring, the best way to force players to gather around each other and provide data on how the server adapts to condensing areas of player input.

People are calling for the MMO as if we were even close to a stage of early access, and you can bet just as many will complain about the Alphas and Betas being unfinished and buggy as those who complain about APOC existing even when they present exactly no viable alternatives for testing.

The bit were they said before 2020 and delayed it, does that count?

You’re talking about the delay caused by IS realizing their servers were incapable of handling a healthy playerbase. So you blame APOC for them realizing their server backend wasn’t up to snuff? And you’d rather they launch with a faulty backend due to lack of testing than wait a little extra time?

The standard MMO dev timeline is 4-6 years, 2020 was never gonna happen.

Atama

Caeryl wrote: »

ferryman wrote: »

@ terrorform I have accepted that the main focus is not at the moment in the MMORPG. Will it be in the future? Yeah.. maybe. In any case, there will be delays and who knows when the AoC comes out. So, I suggest to relax and check out the situation maybe once in a Q. Most importantly, give up of the hope, it helps.

Sources where you think they’ve delayed MMO progress? APOC is part of their incremental testing, the best way to force players to test combat over exploring, the best way to force players to gather around each other and provide data on how the server adapts to condensing areas of player input.

People are calling for the MMO as if we were even close to a stage of early access, and you can bet just as many will complain about the Alphas and Betas being unfinished and buggy as those who complain about APOC existing even when they present exactly no viable alternatives for testing.

They are way behind schedule. Here is what the schedule looked like once:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/amgta8/so_ashes_of_creation_mmorpg_is_scheduled_to/

We should be in Alpha 1, probably Alpha 2 (persistent Alpha servers) by now. Instead, this is what the timeline looks like:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Release_schedule

The MMORPG phases have been replaced by APOC phases. You can see how that has people concerned. We’ve gone from, “We release Alpha 1 of the MMO, then Alpha 2, and eventually work on making APOC a finished product” to saying, “Here are all the stages of APOC testing we will work on to complete it, and the MMO Alpha will be some time in the future”.

Anyone who cares about an MMO being released should be saying WTF?! They’ve clearly shifted focus from the MMO to APOC. This is not about getting the MMO ready. This should absolutely be a concern unless you just want to play an action game, not an RPG.

Caeryl

Atama wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

ferryman wrote: »

@ terrorform I have accepted that the main focus is not at the moment in the MMORPG. Will it be in the future? Yeah.. maybe. In any case, there will be delays and who knows when the AoC comes out. So, I suggest to relax and check out the situation maybe once in a Q. Most importantly, give up of the hope, it helps.

Sources where you think they’ve delayed MMO progress? APOC is part of their incremental testing, the best way to force players to test combat over exploring, the best way to force players to gather around each other and provide data on how the server adapts to condensing areas of player input.

People are calling for the MMO as if we were even close to a stage of early access, and you can bet just as many will complain about the Alphas and Betas being unfinished and buggy as those who complain about APOC existing even when they present exactly no viable alternatives for testing.

They are way behind schedule. Here is what the schedule looked like once:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/amgta8/so_ashes_of_creation_mmorpg_is_scheduled_to/

We should be in Alpha 1, probably Alpha 2 (persistent Alpha servers) by now. Instead, this is what the timeline looks like:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Release_schedule

The MMORPG phases have been replaced by APOC phases. You can see how that has people concerned. We’ve gone from, “We release Alpha 1 of the MMO, then Alpha 2, and eventually work on making APOC a finished product” to saying, “Here are all the stages of APOC testing we will work on to complete it, and the MMO Alpha will be some time in the future”.

Anyone who cares about an MMO being released should be saying WTF?! They’ve clearly shifted focus from the MMO to APOC. This is not about getting the MMO ready. This should absolutely be a concern unless you just want to play an action game, not an RPG.

I care about the MMO, I'm not particularly fond of BRs, but I'm not so ridiculous as to think 2-3 years is going to produce a stable or functional MMO. I would absolutely, beyond and doubt at all, prefer a studio that says "Ok, we need to readdress our schedule because we overestimated our development speed. We choose to spend more time to make a good product than try crunching out for these specific dates." That is a GOOD thing, and shows maturity and care for their product's quality. I'm sick and tired of "We stick to the schedule regardless of needing more time" kind of dev teams.

You're upset their initial timeline was unrealistic. That's fine to be impatient, but how would you suggest their pinpoint test specific features if not with APOC? Do you want them to push the entire game world out, lacking in functionality and full of bugs, and expect people to be stressing their servers with combat in a small area? They'd have to restrict their playable area to extremes, which people would complain about. They'd have to find some way to force people to fight each other, which people would complain about.

When castle siege arrives, would you rather it be a modular experience in APOC? Or have IS restrict players to a tiny piece of a map with a castle in it and tell them to go ham for...reasons? The thing is, these have the same result. It is so much easier to create these conditions for focused testing in APOC, where they don't have to enforce restrictions with invisible walls because the map is small to start with. They don't have to coerce players into combat because the goal and rewarded playstyle in APOC is to fight other players.

Would players really be content being put into the actual game world, then being told "No, you can't explore because we need to test the server strain. No, we don't have a reason for you to fight, but do it anyway because we need to see how our server resolves issues like ping and other player inputs when in combat in a condensed space. No, you can't engage with the other features right now because we have to cover these basics of an online experience before we can start implementing the rest on top of it."

If you have suggestions for an alternative, then by all means, but for the most part all I've seen is complaints without any viable choices for something else. I'm going to provide data for APOC, but I will much prefer the MMO's Alpha 2 and Betas because they have aspects I actually want to engage with.

Atama

Caeryl wrote: »

If you have suggestions for an alternative, then by all means, but for the most part all I've seen is complaints without any viable choices for something else. I'm going to provide data for APOC, but I will much prefer the MMO's Alpha 2 and Betas because they have aspects I actually want to engage with.

A limited version of the MMO. Even APOC style play with hybrid MMO combat. The excuse that they need a new product to test servers makes no sense. They are developing systems unique to APOC that aren’t going to be used in the MMO. Why? If they have a functioning system that was good enough for Alpha 0, why not recycle what was in that? Then you can simultaneously test the servers and what will actually be in the MMO.

There’s a simple answer. It’s because what will be used in the MMO isn’t optimal for APOC. They want APOC as a stand-alone product. So you make new systems for that. Which takes time and people away from the MMO. It’s a bait and switch with an excuse to placate backers. That’s why we’re not happy and not swallowing their lines.

Caeryl

Atama wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

If you have suggestions for an alternative, then by all means, but for the most part all I've seen is complaints without any viable choices for something else. I'm going to provide data for APOC, but I will much prefer the MMO's Alpha 2 and Betas because they have aspects I actually want to engage with.

A limited version of the MMO. Even APOC style play with hybrid MMO combat. The excuse that they need a new product to test servers makes no sense. They are developing systems unique to APOC that aren’t going to be used in the MMO. Why? If they have a functioning system that was good enough for Alpha 0, why not recycle what was in that? Then you can simultaneously test the servers and what will actually be in the MMO.

There’s a simple answer. It’s because what will be used in the MMO isn’t optimal for APOC. They want APOC as a stand-alone product. So you make new systems for that. Which takes time and people away from the MMO. It’s a bait and switch with an excuse to placate backers. That’s why we’re not happy and not swallowing their lines.

The only thing I’ve seen in APOC that cannot transfer to the MMO is the storm that condenses the playing field. The grouping mechanics can transfer. The combat can transfer. The acrobatics and mount movement systems can transfer.

You are right about the MMO not being ideal for what APOC is for. It’s for testing player interactions primarily, which you reasonably can expect to not work out if you stick a bunch of people in an open MMO world with no pressure to go engage each other. At best you’ll get a spattering of small skirmishes.

What system specifically are you referring to when you claim APOC systems can’t transfer to the MMO?

Atama

Caeryl wrote: »

What system specifically are you referring to when you claim APOC systems can’t transfer to the MMO?

The combat is not what will be in the MMO. There will be action combat but it’s not going to be identical to what’s in APOC.

Caeryl

Atama wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

What system specifically are you referring to when you claim APOC systems can’t transfer to the MMO?

The combat is not what will be in the MMO. There will be action combat but it’s not going to be identical to what’s in APOC.

...I’m expecting you have more than that, surely?

Tab systems are predetermined to hit. How much is really needed to ensure that a skill guaranteed to hit for x damage will hit for x amount of damage? The calculations are done on LoS or lackthereof, and after the initial check there are no more calculations required besides the damage calcs.

Free-aiming skills however, especially at range, require location checks on the projectile and all nearby players in real time. Exceptionally more intensive in calculations than a simple “have LoS or no?” check.

However, Steven has given info that body-blocking for friendless will be a thing in Ashes, so if that will apply to tab-targeted spells as well, then perhaps I’d expect to see some forms of lock-on spells come up in APOCs later test iterations. I’m not sure how well received that would go though, being able to block targeted spells by standing in front of someone after they’ve been cast.

mattro

I'm trying to remain patient on this.

Like most who prefer PvE over PvP i am disappointed there was not some way of providing a platform to test both aspects - perhaps an instanced PvE dungeon with repeatable encounters, repetitive sure but would help satisfy the PvE expectations.
I have literally zero interest in PvP despite trying to enjoy it for 20 years across many titles, and whether i was naive or just in denial, the fact remains i expect PvE content to feature heavily and that was my reason for backing the game on kickstarter, like many i literally funded my own cash into a project with an expectation it would deliver.
Back to my patience - i hope to see evidence of those expectations, as so far there has only been PvP evidence and of course this would be disappointing in reverse for the PvP purists i'm sure!

Lets hope we are all satisfied with the end product!

Ferryman

Caeryl wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

What system specifically are you referring to when you claim APOC systems can’t transfer to the MMO?

The combat is not what will be in the MMO. There will be action combat but it’s not going to be identical to what’s in APOC.

...I’m expecting you have more than that, surely?

But the combat is the main argument why Apoc is there at first place, and if the combat is not even the same, then the base of that argument is not valid at all.

In addition, NO game needs another game to be finished. It would be much more efficient to focus just on one game at the time.

Of course IS tries to justify their actions with different kind of explanations, but it is a totally different thing who buys these excuses. Obviously, Apoc is more about a business strategy change rather than anything else.

Best regards,

Engineer..

Caeryl

ferryman wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

What system specifically are you referring to when you claim APOC systems can’t transfer to the MMO?

The combat is not what will be in the MMO. There will be action combat but it’s not going to be identical to what’s in APOC.

...I’m expecting you have more than that, surely?

But the combat is the main argument why Apoc is there at first place, and if the combat is not even the same, then the base of that argument is not valid at all.

In addition, NO game needs another game to be finished. It would be much more efficient to focus just on one game at the time.

Of course IS tries to justify their actions with different kind of explanations, but it is a totally different thing who buys these excuses. Obviously, Apoc is more about a business strategy change rather than anything else.

Best regards,

Engineer..

When I and others tell you it’s to test combat, we mean it is to test the server’s capabilities of doing high density calculations that relate to combat, collision, casting and fighting between players with differing ping, the ability of the server to resolve client side info with server side player positioning in a way that feels fair. It’s to make sure the MMO will be able to reasonably handle free aiming abilities. It’s to make sure combat won’t be bogging down performance, so when they add more features they’ll know that at least the player interactions (the part of the game they can’t make direct changes to) won’t be to blame.

Atama

Caeryl wrote: »

ferryman wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

What system specifically are you referring to when you claim APOC systems can’t transfer to the MMO?

The combat is not what will be in the MMO. There will be action combat but it’s not going to be identical to what’s in APOC.

...I’m expecting you have more than that, surely?

But the combat is the main argument why Apoc is there at first place, and if the combat is not even the same, then the base of that argument is not valid at all.

In addition, NO game needs another game to be finished. It would be much more efficient to focus just on one game at the time.

Of course IS tries to justify their actions with different kind of explanations, but it is a totally different thing who buys these excuses. Obviously, Apoc is more about a business strategy change rather than anything else.

Best regards,

Engineer..

When I and others tell you it’s to test combat, we mean it is to test the server’s capabilities of doing high density calculations that relate to combat, collision, casting and fighting between players with differing ping, the ability of the server to resolve client side info with server side player positioning in a way that feels fair. It’s to make sure the MMO will be able to reasonably handle free aiming abilities. It’s to make sure combat won’t be bogging down performance, so when they add more features they’ll know that at least the player interactions (the part of the game they can’t make direct changes to) won’t be to blame.

I accept that and the optimist in me (the part that keeps me posting here) thinks it’s a win-win because they have a product people can play now, and it may indirectly help the development of the game.

But the fact is, they can just do the MMO combat instead of an alternative combat system unrelated to it.. As @ferryman said, this isn’t the combat from the MMO. Even if they provide us only a sample of what we will have at release it’s still something.

Caeryl

Atama wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

ferryman wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

What system specifically are you referring to when you claim APOC systems can’t transfer to the MMO?

The combat is not what will be in the MMO. There will be action combat but it’s not going to be identical to what’s in APOC.

...I’m expecting you have more than that, surely?

But the combat is the main argument why Apoc is there at first place, and if the combat is not even the same, then the base of that argument is not valid at all.

In addition, NO game needs another game to be finished. It would be much more efficient to focus just on one game at the time.

Of course IS tries to justify their actions with different kind of explanations, but it is a totally different thing who buys these excuses. Obviously, Apoc is more about a business strategy change rather than anything else.

Best regards,

Engineer..

When I and others tell you it’s to test combat, we mean it is to test the server’s capabilities of doing high density calculations that relate to combat, collision, casting and fighting between players with differing ping, the ability of the server to resolve client side info with server side player positioning in a way that feels fair. It’s to make sure the MMO will be able to reasonably handle free aiming abilities. It’s to make sure combat won’t be bogging down performance, so when they add more features they’ll know that at least the player interactions (the part of the game they can’t make direct changes to) won’t be to blame.

I accept that and the optimist in me (the part that keeps me posting here) thinks it’s a win-win because they have a product people can play now, and it may indirectly help the development of the game.

But the fact is, they can just do the MMO combat instead of an alternative combat system unrelated to it.. As @ferryman said, this isn’t the combat from the MMO. Even if they provide us only a sample of what we will have at release it’s still something.

If they do intend on going full out with the body blocking mechanic which I hope for, then I’d also expect targeted abilities to come into APOC at some point.

I’ll change my stance if IS proves to not be working on the next stages, but we’ve already seen the first bits of castle sieges, so I expect now that the technical difficulties with the server backend are resolved for things to move forward steadily. Slowly, but forward nonetheless.

mcstackerson

ferryman wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

What system specifically are you referring to when you claim APOC systems can’t transfer to the MMO?

The combat is not what will be in the MMO. There will be action combat but it’s not going to be identical to what’s in APOC.

...I’m expecting you have more than that, surely?

But the combat is the main argument why Apoc is there at first place, and if the combat is not even the same, then the base of that argument is not valid at all.

In addition, NO game needs another game to be finished. It would be much more efficient to focus just on one game at the time.

Of course IS tries to justify their actions with different kind of explanations, but it is a totally different thing who buys these excuses. Obviously, Apoc is more about a business strategy change rather than anything else.

Best regards,

Engineer..

The combat will be the same, just not in the way you think of combat.

The ability mechanics will be the same, not the whole combat design which seems to be what some don't get. The combat is there to test how it feels when you use a weapon or ability, to make sure it hits when it's supposed to, and make sure it applies any effects. In addition to making sure abilities do what they are supposed to it is there to help optimize them. It was never here to test balance for the MMO.

The mechanics tested in APOC are going to be used to create the abilities in the MMO. An easy example is the same projectile mechanics used when you fire a bow, can be used to make an ice bolt. The projectile speed might be slowed downed, it might be made larger, given a different particle effect, and if it hits the target, it will probably apply a slow similar to the ability tested on the one handed sword. Hell, maybe it could leave behind a sheet of ice on the ground similar to the meteor ability but instead of a rune that drops a meteor, it's a sheet of ice that slows like the sword's ability.

Actually most developers do make other "games" to test mechanics in their game, they just don't release them. Instead of making one giant game, they make little modules, similar to APOC, that allow them to test different things in the game.

I understand people don't like where we are at in development but it makes sense that before you spend a lot of time creating all of your class abilities, you would wont to test the mechanics you are going to use to create all of them.

Ferryman

Caeryl wrote: »

ferryman wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

What system specifically are you referring to when you claim APOC systems can’t transfer to the MMO?

The combat is not what will be in the MMO. There will be action combat but it’s not going to be identical to what’s in APOC.

...I’m expecting you have more than that, surely?

But the combat is the main argument why Apoc is there at first place, and if the combat is not even the same, then the base of that argument is not valid at all.

In addition, NO game needs another game to be finished. It would be much more efficient to focus just on one game at the time.

Of course IS tries to justify their actions with different kind of explanations, but it is a totally different thing who buys these excuses. Obviously, Apoc is more about a business strategy change rather than anything else.

Best regards,

Engineer..

When I and others tell you it’s to test combat, we mean it is to test the server’s capabilities of doing high density calculations that relate to combat, collision, casting and fighting between players with differing ping, the ability of the server to resolve client side info with server side player positioning in a way that feels fair. It’s to make sure the MMO will be able to reasonably handle free aiming abilities. It’s to make sure combat won’t be bogging down performance, so when they add more features they’ll know that at least the player interactions (the part of the game they can’t make direct changes to) won’t be to blame.

Sure, but still something what you can do without designing another game, and which still have extra features not relating to the MMO version. And if you publish a game it will cost you extra time and resources when you compare it to pure testing environment. Apoc is a BR game and it is not suitable as it is to be moved to MMO environment. Something will be left out, new stuff will be added a lot and all that needs to be optimized and balanced with each other once again.

Ferryman

mcstackerson wrote: »

ferryman wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

What system specifically are you referring to when you claim APOC systems can’t transfer to the MMO?

The combat is not what will be in the MMO. There will be action combat but it’s not going to be identical to what’s in APOC.

...I’m expecting you have more than that, surely?

But the combat is the main argument why Apoc is there at first place, and if the combat is not even the same, then the base of that argument is not valid at all.

In addition, NO game needs another game to be finished. It would be much more efficient to focus just on one game at the time.

Of course IS tries to justify their actions with different kind of explanations, but it is a totally different thing who buys these excuses. Obviously, Apoc is more about a business strategy change rather than anything else.

Best regards,

Engineer..

The combat will be the same, just not in the way you think of combat.

The ability mechanics will be the same, not the whole combat design which seems to be what some don't get. The combat is there to test how it feels when you use a weapon or ability, to make sure it hits when it's supposed to, and make sure it applies any effects. In addition to making sure abilities do what they are supposed to it is there to help optimize them. It was never here to test balance for the MMO.

Actually most developers do make other "games" to test mechanics in their game, they just don't release them. Instead of making one giant game, they make little modules, similar to APOC, that allow them to test different things in the game.

I understand people don't like where we are at in development but it makes sense that before you spend a lot of time creating all of your class abilities, you would wont to test the mechanics you are going to use to create all of them.

I bolded few sentences, which are exactly one portion of my point. Apoc is not the whole combat design and not meant to test balance for the MMO. Focusing to design the combat for the MMO would automatically include these parts.

There is a huge difference between modules/testing environments when compared releasing it as an own game. We should remember that.

And for the last chapter, I do not understand the point at all, they are not forced to create all abilitites at once even it is about the MMO.

Child Item