Do you want "Daily Quests" if so, to what extent?

Dygz wrote: »

In my Fractured example, I stated that there is plenty I can do in 20 minutes. I can kill Rabbits, Saplings, Woodland Wisps or Earth Elementals, I just won't get any rewards whatsoever for doing so - not even xp.

So now you are in the other group, wanting shit for nothing.

This is my point.

Either, you want shit for nothing and so daily quests, or you don't want to think of a rewarding activity to do for 20 minutes and so daily quests.

Neither are a good reason.

If you can not think of something rewarding to do in 20 minutes of game time in an MMO, you're playing the wrong genre.

I mean, sure, MMO's are known for content pieces that take hours, but they also have content pieces that take seconds. Crafting is a fantastic example of this.

In terms of Ashes, maybe you want to help your node get stronger - go out and kill stuff. You get xp, your node gets xp, and you can spend as little or as much time on it as you want.

If not, there absolutely will be some form of commercial or industrial activity you can participate in that will net you rewards.

In an MMO, wanting daily quests comes down to either you can't think what to do for yourself, and/or you want free shit. There is no other reason to want daily quests, as every reason possible to want them fits in to those two reasons.

Being a mix of both reasons, as you seem to be, isn't any better than being exclusively one or the other. In order to even start to put up a debate against that argument, you need to being with outlining why it is you can't do the task the daily quest would have you do, even if that daily quest didn't exist.

Everything you have said about Fractured just tells me they use daily quests to cover up bad game systems (or use bad game systems to justify daily quests). Neither of these are applicable to this game unless you want to suggest that Ashes also offer no xp for killing suitable encounters. As long as Ashes offers a reward for killing encounters, the reward structure of games that do not are not applicable here.

Caeryl wrote: »

I think you’re wrong in claiming those APOC dailies are to give players “other things to do”, they’re to give significant incentive to test features.

Not mutually exclusive. True.

Caeryl wrote: »

Open 3 chests: check if our RNG loot generation has properly weighted odds
Destroy 10 walls: Test the effectiveness and performance impact of destruction mechanics we’re still fine tuning
Kill 3 players: engage in general combat testing.

Then we agree that Dailies can be meaningful. Especially when the results of multiple players activities are accrued.

Caeryl wrote: »

These aren’t tasks with the purpose of adding “spice” to APOC.

"Spice" is a concept you are now introducing. I have not suggested that the Dailies exist to add "spice".

Caeryl wrote: »

And the devs HAVE said there won’t be traditional dailies in Ashes. We will get organically generated quests that change often, aren’t consistent between nodes or time of the week, and won’t be auto given. You’ll have to pick them up like any other quest, they won’t have such good rewards anyone will feel obligated.

Which is what i have been saying along. Though, I don't recall a quote from the devs that says there won't be any Dailies consistent with time of the week.
All the rest, I covered in various posts on the first page.

Caeryl wrote: »

In your example, it would appear because players haven’t killed any local earth elementals lately and they’ve grown out of hand, for a week an npc in the area gives out rewards for slaying earth elementals, until the population drops to more acceptable levels.

That is not my example at all.
That's an example you've concocted. Doesn't even sound like the Ashes mechanics we've heard about.

Caeryl wrote: »

That’s not a daily, that’s a spontaneous quest that appears only so long as the conditions demand. Casual players honestly shouldn’t be keeping up with dedicated players to any significant degree, said as someone with a full time job who won’t be keeping up with a high school kid

Please post a quote where I spoke about "a spontaneous quest that appears only so long as the conditions demand." I didn't even have that as a concept until you just mentioned it.
Also, please show me a post where I said anything about casual players keeping up with "dedicated" players. I have never even held that thought at all, let alone written anything like that. You are arguing with yourself.

Dygz wrote: »

Also, please show me a post where I said anything about casual players keeping up with "dedicated" players. I have never even held that thought at all, let alone written anything like that. You are arguing with yourself.

All of your posts include “give me rewards for 10-20 minutes of effort” and you repeatedly claim that the natural rewards aren’t what you want for that minimal effort.

Your referenced games have crap game design, to put it simply. The presence of dailies in those systems stems directly from their crappy design.

Yep. Give me rewards for 10-20 minutes of effort. You seem to be jumping to the assumption -for whatever bizarre reason- that I think those rewards should be equal to or better than rewards for quests that take 30+ minutes. Again, you are arguing with yourself rather than against anything I've actually stated.

Crappy design is subjective.
The Ashes devs indicate that the MMORPG will have Dailies. I previously posted the dev quote on Page 3, but here it is again:

Q: "Will there be RNG as dailies and stuff like that?"
A: "I don't think those will be RNG based. Those will be probably- you will see the reward structure for those types of quests. Will they be dailies? No they won't be in the sense of what we've experienced dailies in the past where you feel so obligated to log in and like you'll miss these things. It's more gonna be focused around like how the world is changing and how the changes in the world relate to your opportunities; and then, you know if... your location's gonna matter because fast travel is not a thing. Where you're located at is going to determine your you know the risk versus reward opportunities that are present; and then depending on the time that those occur."

Dygz wrote: »

Yep. Give me rewards for 10-20 minutes of effort. You seem to be jumping to the assumption -for whatever bizarre reason- that I think those rewards should be equal to or better than rewards for quests that take 30+ minutes. Again, you are arguing with yourself rather than against anything I've actually stated.

Crappy design is subjective.
The Ashes devs indicate that the MMORPG will have Dailies. I previously posted the dev quote on Page 3, but here it is again:

Q: "Will there be RNG as dailies and stuff like that?"
A: "I don't think those will be RNG based. Those will be probably- you will see the reward structure for those types of quests. Will they be dailies? No they won't be in the sense of what we've experienced dailies in the past where you feel so obligated to log in and like you'll miss these things. It's more gonna be focused around like how the world is changing and how the changes in the world relate to your opportunities; and then, you know if... your location's gonna matter because fast travel is not a thing. Where you're located at is going to determine your you know the risk versus reward opportunities that are present; and then depending on the time that those occur."

What you've conveniently failed to answer is why the rewards from that 20 minute piece of content that the daily quest is asking you to do is not sufficient in itself.

I'm still trying to break down exactly what it is you seem to want from a daily quest.

If the quest takes 20 minutes, and you don't think it should reward more than a 30 minute piece of content, that means you think the reward for the daily quest should be equal to no more than 9 minutes worth of content. If you add this reward to the reward you would naturally expect from a 20 minute piece of content, any more of a reward and you now have the same or better reward than a 30 minute piece of content.

So the question remains, why not just do the 20 minute piece of content? Why do you need the daily quest? Is it not perfectly fair that you get 20 minutes worth of reward for 20 minutes worth of content?

Dygz wrote: »

Yep. Give me rewards for 10-20 minutes of effort. You seem to be jumping to the assumption -for whatever bizarre reason- that I think those rewards should be equal to or better than rewards for quests that take 30+ minutes. Again, you are arguing with yourself rather than against anything I've actually stated.

Crappy design is subjective.
The Ashes devs indicate that the MMORPG will have Dailies. I previously posted the dev quote on Page 3, but here it is again:

Q: "Will there be RNG as dailies and stuff like that?"
A: "I don't think those will be RNG based. Those will be probably- you will see the reward structure for those types of quests. Will they be dailies? No they won't be in the sense of what we've experienced dailies in the past where you feel so obligated to log in and like you'll miss these things. It's more gonna be focused around like how the world is changing and how the changes in the world relate to your opportunities; and then, you know if... your location's gonna matter because fast travel is not a thing. Where you're located at is going to determine your you know the risk versus reward opportunities that are present; and then depending on the time that those occur."

Yes and I’ve already replied to that, because literally in that quote tells you exactly what you need to know about the minor quests we’ll see in Ashes. They will be reactive to the world state. Quests will appear dependent on conditions of the local area. They will not be random tasks that appear simply to give rewards to players that have no idea what to do with themselves.

Quests that can be done in small amounts of time will exist, they will give rewards proportional to small amounts of time. They won’t give you extras that make that 20 minutes of effort equal 40 minutes of reward.

noaani wrote: »

What you've conveniently failed to answer is why the rewards from that 20 minute piece of content that the daily quest is asking you to do is not sufficient in itself.

10-20 minutes. Rewards for 10-20 minute quests might be sufficient. Which is why I keep referencing the Apoc Dailies.
I'm not sure the devs would be able to keep up with hardcore time/casual challenge players steamrolling through hours of 10 minute quests. Seems unsustainable. Which is why 10-20 minute quests will likely be limited to once per day. If I only had 10-20 minutes to play on any given day - that one 10-20 minute quest and quest reward might very well be sufficient.

noaani wrote: »

I'm still trying to break down exactly what it is you seem to want from a daily quest.
If the quest takes 20 minutes, and you don't think it should reward more than a 30 minute piece of content, that means you think the reward for the daily quest should be equal to no more than 9 minutes worth of content.

I think that means the content should be equal to no more than 20 minutes of content.
Should be easy to breakdown since I keep using Apoc as an example of what I expect the MMORPG Dailies to be like.

If you add this reward to the reward you would naturally expect from a 20 minute piece of content, any more of a reward and you now have the same or better reward than a 30 minute piece of content.

Here, you are talking about content. Content is not intrinsically tied to quests.
Quests typically provide additional rewards on top of the rewards associated with completing content - extra xp, extra gear, etc.
So, yes, I expect Daily Quests to provide rewards on top of what one would naturally expect from completing a 20 minute piece of content because that is how quests work. I do not expect a 10 minute Daily Quest or a 20 minute Daily Quest to reward more than a 30+ minute regular quest.

Key factor of Daily Quests is the understanding that most people do not have 2+ hours to play every day - thus a core component of Daily Quests is that they are quick and easy to find, obtain and complete compared to regular quests. They need to be obtainable and completable in less than 30 minutes... preferably in less than 20 minutes.

10-20 minute quests are not common in MMORPGs - especially not at higher levels or max levels. Daily Quests are commonly 10-20-30 minutes in length. So that people can complete a quest every day, even on days when they have less than 30 minutes to play.
Daily Rewards tend to be different than regular quest rewards. For instance, in Wiz101, the rewards are frequently crowns (embers) or PvP Arena tickets or gold, rather than xp and gear/items which are the rewads for regular quests.
But, in Apoc the Daily Rewards are just a lesser form of the Weekly Rewards - which fine. But, Adventurer xp as the only Daily Reward won't be sufficient in the MMORPG once people hit max Adventurer Level. Same for gear.
So, most likely Daily Rewards in the MMORPG will also include additional forms of rewards, like embers. Doesn't have to be xp plus embers. Fine if Daily rewards are just embers. But the devs would probably want to limit such rewards to once or twice per day, rather than be available for hardcore time players to focus on for many hours.
Earning a total of 100 embers per month for doing Dailies, interspersed with other types of rewards, like xx monster coins, skins and emotes -similar to the Apoc cosmetic rewards- seems sufficient to me.
Could even be something like "cosmetic tokens" I can spend at a shop to purchase the set of cosmetic gear I like.

So the question remains, why not just do the 20 minute piece of content? Why do you need the daily quest? Is it not perfectly fair that you get 20 minutes worth of reward for 20 minutes worth of content?

Even 20 minute quests are difficult to find in MMORPGs - unless they are Dailies.
How do you propose we determine where to find a 20 minute quest on any given day unless there is some equivalent of a Daily Quest Giver?
"20 minute piece of content" does not inherently mean there will be any tangible reward for 20 minutes of gameplay. "20 minute piece of content" could entail running from one village to another and then having to wait for another game session before I can start "grinding" whatever the crux of the quest is.
Again, I refer to my Fractured example:
My options for 20 minutes of content today could be running from the Earth Elemental hunting grounds over to the Treant hunting grounds, then it would be time to log out. I could stay where I am and kill two Earth Elementals, but I would no longer get xp for that and I would not learn any new skills.
Just because there is content that can be done in 20 minutes does not mean that content is attached to a quest that can be completed in 20 minutes nor does it mean the content comes with a tangible reward.

20 minutes really is not a lot of time if when it includes searching for a casual time quest. Probably have to spend at least a 5 minutes finding the quest. Then at least 5 minutes traveling to the location. Then 5 minutes completing the task. Then 5 minutes returning to the Quest Giver.
In Wiz101, it takes less than 5 minutes to travel to the Daily Quest Giver. I can fast travel to the Daily Quest Giver in 2 minutes or less. It will probably take 5-15 minutes to travel to the quest location, depending on the Daily. 5 minutes or less to actually do the task. And the crowns, gold or PvP tickets are instantly rewarded without needing to travel back to the Daily Quest Giver.
In Wiz101, the Dailies are all a mini-repeat of quests that have already been completed so, I would no longer be getting quest rewards for completing those tasks if not for the Dailies. The Wiz101 Daily Rewards tend to be things like crowns (embers) or PvP tickets, which are not rewards for regular quests.

What I want from the Ashes MMORPG Dailies is pretty much the same thing I get from the Apoc Dailies: Easy access to quest options that can be completed in 10-20 minutes. And rewards commensurate with the task and/or time.

Dygz wrote: »

Here, you are talking about content. Content is not intrinsically tied to quests.

Are you suggesting that a 20 minute piece of content + daily quest completion should reward players more than a 30 minute piece of content?

Dygz wrote: »

"20 minute piece of content" does not inherently mean there will be any tangible reward for 20 minutes of gameplay.

If developers design a game where a 20 minute piece of content may not have any reward, why would they then add in daily quests to give that specific piece of content a reward?

Does it not just make more sense to tie the reward to the content?

Dygz wrote: »

10-20 minute quests are not common in MMORPGs - especially not at higher levels or max levels.

Almost all aspects of crafting can be broken down in to pieces of content that last seconds. If you are an avid crafter, there will always be something you can craft.
I would wager the housing system will contain many small tasks that need to be completed, ticking off a few of them when you only have a few minutes to play sounds like a really good idea to me.
Most solo combat encounters take seconds, in 20 minutes you could probably manage to go out and kill 25+ level appropriate mobs in order to assist your node in leveling up (and yourself in leveling up too!).
Most longer quests can be looked at as being many small tasks lined up from end to end, there is likely to be a longer quest or quest chain you would like to complete, and either ticking off the next objective or positioning yourself to better tick that objective off next time you log in seems like a really good use of play time.

The above is just off the top of my head, I wasn't even going to bother with it as I thought it was all obvious stuff, but I decided to edit it in anyway.
Now, you may well try and say "but I want a tangible reward" for my 20 minutes - and if you do that means you are just after something for free.
You may also say "but then I have to decide which of the many choices placed in front of me I should do", in which case you want the game to think for you.

Honestly, that is all there is to it.

noaani wrote: »

Are you suggesting that a 20 minute piece of content + daily quest completion should reward players more than a 30 minute piece of content?

Possibly... probably.
Content is not inherently tied to a tangible reward.
Quests are inherently tied to a tangible reward.
A 20 minute Daily Quest reward should not be of greater value than a 30 minute quest reward.
In fact, a Daily quest reward should probably be of a lower caliber altogether than a regular quest reward.
Hence, why I gave examples like embers, monster tokens, emotes or even cosmetic tokens for Daily Quests, while I would expect xp, gold and actual gear (rather than skins) for regular quests.

noaani wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

"20 minute piece of content" does not inherently mean there will be any tangible reward for 20 minutes of gameplay.

If developers design a game where a 20 minute piece of content may not have any reward, why would they then add in daily quests to give that specific piece of content a reward?

Does it not just make more sense to tie the reward to the content?

No. Again, content could be anything: Stomping on snakes in WoW is content. There are no tangible rewards for doing so. Killing grey mobs in WoW or EQ is content. There's no xp and IIRC no loot from that.
As I've already stated several times, in Fractured I can kill Saplings, Woodland Wisps or Earth Elementals for hours and hours and hours - but I won't get any xp for it because I've already reached the max xp in each of those categories. They still count as content, but there are no longer any rewards whatsoever for killing them.
Content does not intrinsically come with tangible rewards... especially at max Adventurer level.
Attaching rewards to "content" typically results in abysmally slow grinding. Which is why rewards associated with quests are almost always significantly more substantive than whatever rewards might be tied to content... when rewards are tied to content.
"A 20 minute piece of content" is a nebulous concept - in most MMORPGs, I'm not even sure what that could be other than a quest or a dungeon. And the vast majority of quests and dungeons that are not newbies or Dailies are designed for 30+ minutes.
There are multiple types of content I might complete in 20 minutes in an MMORPG - there aren't necessarily any tangible rewards tied to those activities, though.

Dygz wrote: »

Content is not inherently tied to a tangible reward.
Quests are inherently tied to a tangible reward.

So you want something for nothing.
Honestly, that is all it comes down to.

Dygz wrote: »

No. Again, content could be anything: Stomping on snakes in WoW is content. There are no tangible rewards for doing so. Killing grey mobs in WoW or EQ is content. There's no xp and IIRC no loot from that.
As I've already stated several times, in Fractured

Are you saying you are unable to find rewarding content without daily quests?
Because if you are, that sounds like a "you" problem.

Caeryl wrote: »

Yes and I’ve already replied to that, because literally in that quote tells you exactly what you need to know about the minor quests we’ll see in Ashes. They will be reactive to the world state. Quests will appear dependent on conditions of the local area. They will not be random tasks that appear simply to give rewards to players that have no idea what to do with themselves.

Quests that can be done in small amounts of time will exist, they will give rewards proportional to small amounts of time. They won’t give you extras that make that 20 minutes of effort equal 40 minutes of reward.

So then... we agree. Why have you been arguing with what I've said as if you disagree with me?

noaani wrote: »

So you want something for nothing.
Honestly, that is all it comes down to.

Nope, I want something for something.

Dygz wrote: »

Are you saying you are unable to find rewarding content without daily quests?
Because if you are, that sounds like a "you" problem.

Actually, your poor reading comprehension is a you problem.

Dygz wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Yes and I’ve already replied to that, because literally in that quote tells you exactly what you need to know about the minor quests we’ll see in Ashes. They will be reactive to the world state. Quests will appear dependent on conditions of the local area. They will not be random tasks that appear simply to give rewards to players that have no idea what to do with themselves.

Quests that can be done in small amounts of time will exist, they will give rewards proportional to small amounts of time. They won’t give you extras that make that 20 minutes of effort equal 40 minutes of reward.

So then... we agree. Why have you been arguing with what I've said as if you disagree with me?

If all you’re asking for is minor quests to exist, then you shouldn’t be asking for “dailies”. Dailies have a particular design and reward structure that signals bad baseline design of a game’s reward structure. A daily is not a meaningful quest due to the standard format of them being meaningless filler on a checklist for players lacking engagement in the game in order to boost out enough reward for minimal investment to entice players to artificially inflates a company’s active player metric.

They’re not the same things as minor quests (basically temporary side quests) and you’re just talking in circles over nothing just because you’re using the wrong word.

In the Q&A, Steven does not say “We won’t have dailies.”
Instead what he says is, Ashes dailies won’t be the kind with RNG and won’t make players make players feel obligated to participate in them.
If you go to the wiki, you will see a section on Dailies. You will not see a section titled Minor Quests.
You just have a limited vision of what Dailies can be. And you seem to be arguing about a label. Which is literally arguing semantics.

Dygz wrote: »

Actually, your poor reading comprehension is a you problem.

It really isn't a reading comprehension thing.
In the same way you are claiming this...

Dygz wrote: »

You just have a limited vision of what Dailies can be.

I will say you have a limited vision of how rewards can be attached to content.
Every time I bring this up, all you do is cite examples from other games - as id you are unabke to see the possibility of different methids of distributing rewards.
Without citing any other games, why does ashes need dailies in place of simply adding that reward to the content?

Dygz wrote: »

In the Q&A, Steven does not say “We won’t have dailies.”
Instead what he says is, Ashes dailies won’t be the kind with RNG and won’t make players make players feel obligated to participate in them.
If you go to the wiki, you will see a section on Dailies. You will not see a section titled Minor Quests.
You just have a limited vision of what Dailies can be. And you seem to be arguing about a label. Which is literally arguing semantics.

Nice selective quoting, maybe also mention this part:

It's more gonna be focused around like how the world is changing and how the changes in the world relate to your opportunities; and then, you know if... your location's gonna matter because fast travel is not a thing. Where you're located at is going to determine your you know the risk versus reward opportunities that are present; and then depending on the time that those occur.

Where it clearly says quests will appear in reaction to a changing world. It’s an organic quest generation system.

You simply seem so stuck on games with awful reward structures that you can’t fathom a game having those rewards ingrained into content itself. You say content =/= payoff? Then you have not played any games with decent reward structures.

Damokles

Caeryl wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

In the Q&A, Steven does not say “We won’t have dailies.”
Instead what he says is, Ashes dailies won’t be the kind with RNG and won’t make players make players feel obligated to participate in them.
If you go to the wiki, you will see a section on Dailies. You will not see a section titled Minor Quests.
You just have a limited vision of what Dailies can be. And you seem to be arguing about a label. Which is literally arguing semantics.

Nice selective quoting, maybe also mention this part:

It's more gonna be focused around like how the world is changing and how the changes in the world relate to your opportunities; and then, you know if... your location's gonna matter because fast travel is not a thing. Where you're located at is going to determine your you know the risk versus reward opportunities that are present; and then depending on the time that those occur.

Where it clearly says quests will appear in reaction to a changing world. It’s an organic quest generation system.

You simply seem so stuck on games with awful reward structures that you can’t fathom a game having those rewards ingrained into content itself. You say content =/= payoff? Then you have not played any games with decent reward structures.

But it also does not say that they are NOT dailies. ^^
I see it like this: randomly generated dailies that depend on the current node level, random events and built infrastructure (like a tavern that needs you to get meat for them each day).
I myself dont really care if there are dailies, as long as they dont five any majour rewards like armour. If they are repeatable quests that give gold or exp, then they could help bad players to also make a bit of gold on the side.

noaani wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Actually, your poor reading comprehension is a you problem.

It really isn't a reading comprehension thing.
In the same way you are claiming this...

Dygz wrote: »

You just have a limited vision of what Dailies can be.

I will say you have a limited vision of how rewards can be attached to content.
Every time I bring this up, all you do is cite examples from other games - as if you are unable to see the possibility of different methods of distributing rewards.
Without citing any other games, why does ashes need dailies in place of simply adding that reward to the content?

I don't have a limited vision of how rewards can be attached to content.
We don't know how rewards will be attached to "content" in Ashes. I bring up examples from other games to show that the manner in which rewards may or may not be attached to content is diverse and depends on the specific game design - depends on the devs, depends on the content, depends on the level of the adventurer and depends on how rewards distribution changes at various stages in the specific game.
Just using asking me what I think about "content" really gives me no info to weigh in on.
What I can do and have done is provide feedback on comparisons of different types of quests and different types of quest rewards - I can give feedback about rewards for a 10-20 minute quest vs rewards for a 30+ minute quest.
Content vs quest is like food vs fruit. "Shouldn't food have seeds?" I dunno, depends on the specific type of food we're talking about. Some food might have seeds other food might not have seeds. I expect fruit to have seeds, regardless of the size of the fruit. And I expect the size or amount of the seeds associated with the fruit to be commensurate with the size of the fruit. "Oh! Are you saying you should always get seeds for free??!!??"

Has nothing to do with my limited vision of reward distribution - and everything to do with the concept of "content" being to broad and nebulous a concept when the discussion topic is quests.
"Are you saying that food + fruit should have more seeds than food?"

Dygz wrote: »

I don't have a limited vision of how rewards can be attached to content.
We don't know how rewards will be attached to content. I bring up examples from other games to show that the manner in which rewards may be attached to content or not attached at all is diverse and depends on the specific game design

So what you're saying now is that you're fine without daily quests if the content is appropriately compensated for.