Hybrid Combat System Poll

What style do you see yourself playing most?
[Poll]
-Mouse
-AWSD
-Both/Hybrid
[/Poll]

Is there no way to make a poll or am I missing some code?

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Caeryl

Atama wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

As long as I’m never required to click on enemies in order to cast an ability, then I’ll be fine. Soft locking is completely useable and makes far more sense than any obligate click-to-make-skills-useable system that typically plagues tab systems.

You never have to click on enemies in a tab system. You use the tab key.

(That’s why it’s called a tab system.)

If you want to “aim” in a tab system, you have to click the enemy. Tabbing just cycles you through in an incredibly unreliable way.

If I’m actually aiming, then the game should be smart enough to react to that aiming.

It depends. Sometimes you just hit the tab key to arbitrarily cycle between enemies. Sometimes it automatically targets the closest enemy. Sometimes you have different keys that can target different things; closest, enemy that last hit you, target of your target, etc.

I’ve played tab target games where I never click on enemies. It depends on how it’s designed. Done well, it’s actually less clunky than soft-targeting. (Not that a soft target is bad either, that can work well.)

But the idea that tab target=have to click on enemies is just wrong. Using that as a criticism of the system is basing your argument on misconceptions and ignorance.

No, I understand perfectly how tab systems work, and it’s not ignorance to point out that they’re unintuitive and unresponsive to manual aiming. That’s the primary reason I found FFXIV combat unenjoyable.

If tabbing picks the closest enemy when my reticle is on my desired target slightly farther back and to their left, then tabbing is not going to work and I will have to click on my target, or I waste however long it takes to cycle through the “closest” enemy which may change from second to second and take up time I shouldn’t have to be spending just to get to the right target.

Tab requires you click on enemies for the quickest accurate target selection, except in the case you are fighting only one to three mobs where maybe you’ll end up in the tight spot for a single tab to grab the right target.

Soft targeting allows for quick responsive action on the player’s part, meaning you can design gameplay around a player being able to target and cast without the arbitrary delays and lockouts inherent in a tab system.

Tab will always take more time to complete an identical action than a soft-target system, because you will always have at least one more button to press in the targeting process. That small bit of time can be the difference between a groupmate living or dying.

Atama

Caeryl wrote: »

Tab will always take more time to complete an identical action than a soft-target system, because you will always have at least one more button to press in the targeting process. That small bit of time can be the difference between a groupmate living or dying.

Factually incorrect. If someone is behind me I can press tab then my attack key faster than you can turn around, target, then press a key/click a button. Stop pretending like there’s some absolute advantage to one system over another.

BedDave

I'm not sure I completely get what the OP is asking, but I will be playing with a keyboard & mouse configuration. It was the hybrid option that confused me. Did he mean soft-target?

Action combat with a soft-target is becoming fairly common in MMOs. The only problem with soft-target is it's not very precise. Unless you are fairly close to your target, it might select the player/mob next to your target. DPS players probably will rarely experience this problem and love soft-target. Healers don't like soft-target as much as they don't like seeing their strong heal hitting the nearly full health DPS near a Tank at 30% health. How about, borrowing from what appears to be an upcoming trend, an AI-enhanced soft-target that would take context into its target process would be nice. It could somehow figure out the Tank would be the more likely target of the large heal and soft-lock the Tank instead.

If the imprecise nature of soft-target could be fixed it would be the better system. Till then, Tab-target will need to stay around in some fashion.

Caeryl

Atama wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Tab will always take more time to complete an identical action than a soft-target system, because you will always have at least one more button to press in the targeting process. That small bit of time can be the difference between a groupmate living or dying.

Factually incorrect. If someone is behind me I can press tab then my attack key faster than you can turn around, target, then press a key/click a button. Stop pretending like there’s some absolute advantage to one system over another.

You spend .05s to reach for tab, I take .05s to turn my camera and we both press an ability.

Tab is fine if aren’t capable of quick reflexes for some reason, but anyone with quick reflexes will just be hindered by the delays of having to tab to use an ability.

Caeryl

BedDave wrote: »

I'm not sure I completely get what the OP is asking, but I will be playing with a keyboard & mouse configuration. It was the hybrid option that confused me. Did he mean soft-target?

Action combat with a soft-target is becoming fairly common in MMOs. The only problem with soft-target is it's not very precise. Unless you are fairly close to your target, it might select the player/mob next to your target. DPS players probably will rarely experience this problem and love soft-target. Healers don't like soft-target as much as they don't like seeing their strong heal hitting the nearly full health DPS near a Tank at 30% health. How about, borrowing from what appears to be an upcoming trend, an AI-enhanced soft-target that would take context into its target process would be nice. It could somehow figure out the Tank would be the more likely target of the large heal and soft-lock the Tank instead.

If the imprecise nature of soft-target could be fixed it would be the better system. Till then, Tab-target will need to stay around in some fashion.

Context-based soft target healing already exists in some games. It’s perfectly simply to use, and paired with ground AoEs/HoTs for primary proactive healing, leaving smart heals as reactive burst healing. Directional abilities with conditionals, prioritization systems, group synergy abilities they can use themselves for healing or buffs at their leisure. Tab healing becomes whack a mole where healers are too reactive and not very proactive, watching healthbars instead of the overarching fight.

Undead Canuck

So basically what you are saying is that you want the game to be smart enough to play for you. You just want to point in a general direction, cast some stuff and the game is supposed to put the heals on your allies, and the hits on your enemies.
I prefer to learn and play the game myself instead of expecting it to do my playing for me.

Caeryl

Undead Canuck wrote: »

So basically what you are saying is that you want the game to be smart enough to play for you. You just want to point in a general direction, cast some stuff and the game is supposed to put the heals on your allies, and the hits on your enemies.
I prefer to learn and play the game myself instead of expecting it to do my playing for me.

Lmao, clicking on an enemy and then being guaranteed to never miss is much more of the game playing for you than having actual aim being required to hit something.

Soft target that takes into account context when you have multiple allies in your reticle isn’t the game playing for you. Having your abilities hit the enemy you’re aiming at isn’t the game playing for you. Sure it means you don’t have to fight the game to actually get the hits on your desired target, but claiming asking to have that useless hassle removed is asking to have the game play itself is absolutely laughable

Edit: you can play whack a mole healing all you like, I’d prefer to preempt damage and offer actual group buffs, not be constantly watching health bars just to click and burst heal every other second.

BedDave

Undead Canuck wrote: »

...
I prefer to learn and play the game myself instead of expecting it to do my playing for me.

So do I, I just don't like it when I get in position aim at the tank and then the rogue gets the heal/cleanse even though the Tank clearly had the retical over him. I'm looking for smarter/better soft targeting. Maybe as Caeryl mentioned, the soft-target systems of current games work better than the ones I have experienced in past games. I definitely don't want the game playing for me, but I don't want it mostly getting it wrong for me past a certain distance either.

Undead Canuck

Thank you for completely agreeing with me. I don't want the game deciding where something goes. Soft targeting is expecting the game to help you play. Hehe, wouldn't that be considered pay to win?

Caeryl

Undead Canuck wrote: »

Thank you for completely agreeing with me. I don't want the game deciding where something goes. Soft targeting is expecting the game to help you play. Hehe, wouldn't that be considered pay to win?

So are you just a troll or what? Soft targeting is expecting the game to be smart enough to work off what is most likely intended by the player.

Tab is the epitome of the game holding your hand.

Undead Canuck

How is responding being a troll?

Atama

Undead Canuck wrote: »

How is responding being a troll?

You’re not supposed to disagree with someone because apparently that makes you a troll.

Atama

Caeryl wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Tab will always take more time to complete an identical action than a soft-target system, because you will always have at least one more button to press in the targeting process. That small bit of time can be the difference between a groupmate living or dying.

Factually incorrect. If someone is behind me I can press tab then my attack key faster than you can turn around, target, then press a key/click a button. Stop pretending like there’s some absolute advantage to one system over another.

You spend .05s to reach for tab, I take .05s to turn my camera and we both press an ability.

Tab is fine if aren’t capable of quick reflexes for some reason, but anyone with quick reflexes will just be hindered by the delays of having to tab to use an ability.

If it takes you a half second to reach for and tap a key then I’m not the one with poor reflexes.

mcstackerson

Atama wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Tab will always take more time to complete an identical action than a soft-target system, because you will always have at least one more button to press in the targeting process. That small bit of time can be the difference between a groupmate living or dying.

Factually incorrect. If someone is behind me I can press tab then my attack key faster than you can turn around, target, then press a key/click a button. Stop pretending like there’s some absolute advantage to one system over another.

I'm not sure what game you are playing but don't you still have to turn around and face your opponent to user your attack? You are forcing the user to do another action to perform their attack.

Atama

mcstackerson wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Tab will always take more time to complete an identical action than a soft-target system, because you will always have at least one more button to press in the targeting process. That small bit of time can be the difference between a groupmate living or dying.

Factually incorrect. If someone is behind me I can press tab then my attack key faster than you can turn around, target, then press a key/click a button. Stop pretending like there’s some absolute advantage to one system over another.

I'm not sure what game you are playing but don't you still have to turn around and face your opponent to user your attack? You are forcing the user to do another action to perform their attack.

Not in every game.

mcstackerson wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Tab will always take more time to complete an identical action than a soft-target system, because you will always have at least one more button to press in the targeting process. That small bit of time can be the difference between a groupmate living or dying.

Factually incorrect. If someone is behind me I can press tab then my attack key faster than you can turn around, target, then press a key/click a button. Stop pretending like there’s some absolute advantage to one system over another.

I'm not sure what game you are playing but don't you still have to turn around and face your opponent to user your attack? You are forcing the user to do another action to perform their attack.

DAoC, Aion, and Lineage 2 come to mind. I’m sure that there are others I can’t think of off the top of my head.

Ventharien

No one who has ever seriously played any wasd MMO utilizing a tab target system has ever "reached" for tab. it is depressable by the same finger above the A key. Tab targeting is also able to target enemies and friends occluded from vision, especially by large creatures. The amount of muscles need to maneuver the mouse to activate a soft lock, and one finger, usually pinky finger, pressing a key are not comparable in the least.

Ventharien

mcstackerson wrote: »

I'm not sure what game you are playing but don't you still have to turn around and face your opponent to user your attack? You are forcing the user to do another action to perform their attack.

Not only are their several example of games that don't care about your facing, some of which Atama brought up, there are even games that do care about facing, that let you attack without facing on certain abilities. WoW, and SWTOR to name a two.

Atama

Ventharien wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

I'm not sure what game you are playing but don't you still have to turn around and face your opponent to user your attack? You are forcing the user to do another action to perform their attack.

Not only are their several example of games that don't care about your facing, some of which Atama brought up, there are even games that do care about facing, that let you attack without facing on certain abilities. WoW, and SWTOR to name a two.

How did I miss SWTOR, that’s a great example. I played that game like a piano and could spam things quickly, and yes for many abilities you didn’t have to face the enemy.

I don’t hate soft lock or games where you target like an FPS. I’ve played plenty, like TERA and SWL that are fun, I still play SWL (I have a lifetime sub) and I think the game is improved since becoming more action-oriented. It’s just not objectively superior to play that way.

Caeryl

Atama wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Tab will always take more time to complete an identical action than a soft-target system, because you will always have at least one more button to press in the targeting process. That small bit of time can be the difference between a groupmate living or dying.

Factually incorrect. If someone is behind me I can press tab then my attack key faster than you can turn around, target, then press a key/click a button. Stop pretending like there’s some absolute advantage to one system over another.

You spend .05s to reach for tab, I take .05s to turn my camera and we both press an ability.

Tab is fine if aren’t capable of quick reflexes for some reason, but anyone with quick reflexes will just be hindered by the delays of having to tab to use an ability.

If it takes you a half second to reach for and tap a key then I’m not the one with poor reflexes.

Please make sure you actually read and understand what you’re replying to

.05s =/= .5s

Noaani

Caeryl wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

As long as I’m never required to click on enemies in order to cast an ability, then I’ll be fine. Soft locking is completely useable and makes far more sense than any obligate click-to-make-skills-useable system that typically plagues tab systems.

You never have to click on enemies in a tab system. You use the tab key.

(That’s why it’s called a tab system.)

If you want to “aim” in a tab system, you have to click the enemy. Tabbing just cycles you through in an incredibly unreliable way.

If I’m actually aiming, then the game should be smart enough to react to that aiming.

It depends. Sometimes you just hit the tab key to arbitrarily cycle between enemies. Sometimes it automatically targets the closest enemy. Sometimes you have different keys that can target different things; closest, enemy that last hit you, target of your target, etc.

I’ve played tab target games where I never click on enemies. It depends on how it’s designed. Done well, it’s actually less clunky than soft-targeting. (Not that a soft target is bad either, that can work well.)

But the idea that tab target=have to click on enemies is just wrong. Using that as a criticism of the system is basing your argument on misconceptions and ignorance.

No, I understand perfectly how tab systems work

they’re unintuitive and unresponsive to manual aiming. That’s the primary reason I found FFXIV combat unenjoyable.

These two statements together form an oxymoron.

Tab targeting systems almost always have more depth than most players realize - and I am only talking about the targeting aspect.

Most (good) games will have options to target the nearest and cycle through as standard actions, but then there is the option to only target mobs that are currently targeting you, mobs that are targrting others in your group/raid, mobs that have dealt damage to you, mobs that can heal, mobs that can stealth and mobs that can call others.

If you set this up in a way that makes sense to you as a player and that fits the role of your character, it is FAR more useful than manually targeting could ever be. Good players use the tab target system to prevent things going wrong - bad players think they are good because they click target mobs faster after things have gone wrong.

On the other hand, if you do nothing at all to set it up and leave it to where tab targets the nearest enemy and then continual presses target the next further away enemy, what you end up with if mobs are on the move is an unintuitive and unresponsive mess of a target system - but that is the fault of the player, not the game.

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