How do you want to see HEALING & SUPPORT in AoC

Caeryl wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

Gimlog wrote: »

What I would like to see for support is a difference between the 24 Archetypes supports and the 21 subclasses supports .

Making the Archetype support group related and the subclasse support single player support.

If Archetype have group effect abilities, making one player actions more effective for a single player than a buff/heal on a full group, it could make subclass support interesting to have in a group.

Shouldnt it be 16 Archetype supports and 12 Subclass supports?

Yeah idk where they got 24?

My guess is they included Summoner.

Leiloni

Honestly I like tab target healing. The only sort of action healing I'd really be into is TERA style - where I lock on to my targets primarily, and otherwise AoE heals are rather small. I can't stand GW2's "healers", and other games like ESO have smart targeting which I don't like, or large AoEs. I also don't like aimed skillshots or bolts.

In general I prefer to choose my targets myself which is more fun but also requires more skill. AoEs are fine as long as we only have a couple - they should not be needed most of the time, so having few, or putting short CDs on them, is better. One large or PbAoE at most IMO since they're at times needed but not skillful or fun. Otherwise AoE should require me to make some sort of choice - the tiny 5m radius TERA AoEs, or WoW Holy Pally (Beacon of Virtue or Light of Dawn). Automatic healing is not fun, either so no leech skills or things of that nature (RIFT Chloro comes to mind as well, where heals proc off of damage - fun for dps minded players, but not skillful and not requiring the player to actively do anything).

Someone mentioned combo healing and I think for healing combos is a bad idea. It works for dps but healing is much more dynamic and requires on the fly decisions as circumstances change. So we need to have our entire skillset available via one button press. The disaster that was Bless comes to mind here, and if I have to get through a 2 or 3 combo skill chain to get to the heal I need, someone might just die in that time.

Long and short term buffs are fun, as well as auras/mantras, as are debuffs and skills that restore resources to the team. I like being useful in supportive ways when I don't need to heal.

Cleric/Chanter in Aion are two of my favorite classes, and I'd say various versions of WoW Holy Pally are good as well. Along those lines, I'd love to be a heavy armored healer, whether that be at range or melee (or both would be interesting).

Also I want to feel powerful - again like Aion and WoW above. That's something some games do very poorly in an attempt to make healers less necessary. All roles should feel powerful and capable at what they've chosen to do - and that shouldn't mean I get poor damage capabilities, either.

And one last thing - always remember to KISS - keep it simple, stupid. Some games try to have overly complex mechanics in healing and that just doesn't add to the fun. It just gets irritating. At best it narrows our gameplay options and skill choices in combat, and at worst it makes skills hard to understand and use optimally. Remember, healing is not the same as damage - it's much more dynamic and if combat and encounters are designed well, we'll have enough to keep us busy, challenged and interested.

Leiloni

HumblePuffin wrote: »

I enjoy healing, but more than anything I love having good buffs/debuff classes to play. I have a couple different ways that I enjoy this.

Aion’s chanter Was great for its static mantras which could be cycled through but only had a limit of a few that could be active at a time. This let you change what just being present brought to the party on the fly, move speed for heavy movement encounters, mp5 for more drawn out battles, physical or magic attack boosts that you could adjust based on the team comp you were in at the time. It brought lots of thought to what passives buffs were most useful for yourself and the group, but then also let you feel heavily impactful with your off heals, and strong CC from your active abilities. It gave you a lot of flexibility in how you wanted to play.

Control classes are also a a favorite of mine since I guess I’m a bit of a sadist. Classes that are able to support there group by making sure everything is constantly slowed, stunned, or feared are just so fun to play in my opinion. (My main decks are all blue decks in Magic).

I have to say I agree with pretty much all of your points in the original post. I have seen a lot of games that hit most of these, but then they fall short with making it feel impactful. You’re may definitely be giving more dps, You may be the real reason your team mates are staying alive, but then they don’t make it fun to play. There are a lot of ways to make it fun, and with buffs, even though passive and long terms buffs are good, it’s nice to have very short, very powerful buffs as well, that make you go “that chunk of damage was because of what I did” or “that person was definitely dead unless I just did what I did”. Basically they can’t make a support feel their role is entirely replaceable if people just set up slightly different.

League is a great example here. There were a lot that sucked in the first few seasons, but Riot has done a really great job of making supports feel like a vital part of the team.

I agree, Chanter was an amazing support and one that really felt like what you did had an impact (and wacking stuff with a Staff in melee is also super fun). Part of it for that class was they gave you choices. It wasn't like in some games where the pure support has a rotation they spam and that's it - RIFT was guilty of this. Aion gave you enough different buffs that you could choose when to use certain CD based buffs for maximum effect, and choose which Auras to use as well.

Further to that point, they need to make groups 6 man parties instead of 5. That's what makes a support class work better without messing up the balance of dps players. It allows the support to have a larger impact on a party while also leaving enough room in a party for the support without costing other players spots. It worked really well in Aion and at worst, players can bring 4 dps if they can't find a support.

Leiloni wrote: »

HumblePuffin wrote: »

I enjoy healing, but more than anything I love having good buffs/debuff classes to play. I have a couple different ways that I enjoy this.

Aion’s chanter Was great for its static mantras which could be cycled through but only had a limit of a few that could be active at a time. This let you change what just being present brought to the party on the fly, move speed for heavy movement encounters, mp5 for more drawn out battles, physical or magic attack boosts that you could adjust based on the team comp you were in at the time. It brought lots of thought to what passives buffs were most useful for yourself and the group, but then also let you feel heavily impactful with your off heals, and strong CC from your active abilities. It gave you a lot of flexibility in how you wanted to play.

Control classes are also a a favorite of mine since I guess I’m a bit of a sadist. Classes that are able to support there group by making sure everything is constantly slowed, stunned, or feared are just so fun to play in my opinion. (My main decks are all blue decks in Magic).

I have to say I agree with pretty much all of your points in the original post. I have seen a lot of games that hit most of these, but then they fall short with making it feel impactful. You’re may definitely be giving more dps, You may be the real reason your team mates are staying alive, but then they don’t make it fun to play. There are a lot of ways to make it fun, and with buffs, even though passive and long terms buffs are good, it’s nice to have very short, very powerful buffs as well, that make you go “that chunk of damage was because of what I did” or “that person was definitely dead unless I just did what I did”. Basically they can’t make a support feel their role is entirely replaceable if people just set up slightly different.

League is a great example here. There were a lot that sucked in the first few seasons, but Riot has done a really great job of making supports feel like a vital part of the team.

I agree, Chanter was an amazing support and one that really felt like what you did had an impact (and wacking stuff with a Staff in melee is also super fun). Part of it for that class was they gave you choices. It wasn't like in some games where the pure support has a rotation they spam and that's it - RIFT was guilty of this. Aion gave you enough different buffs that you could choose when to use certain CD based buffs for maximum effect, and choose which Auras to use as well.

Further to that point, they need to make groups 6 man parties instead of 5. That's what makes a support class work better without messing up the balance of dps players. It allows the support to have a larger impact on a party while also leaving enough room in a party for the support without costing other players spots. It worked really well in Aion and at worst, players can bring 4 dps if they can't find a support.

Well, groups will be a max of 8 people (so that you can take at least one of each base class)
The chanter was one of my first characters in AION and i loved him like my own child. I really hope that the Tellsword (Bard/Fighter) and Trickster (Bard/Rogue) will work like that.
Debuffing enemies with melee attacks, casting auras to buff allies etc, it was my favourite class of all time and i miss it dearly. ^^

BlackBrony

I really enjoyed Purifier from Rift. It was mostly a ST healer, but had this skill that was a shield. You had 2 versions, and you could have each version on up to 3 players.
If you were good enough you knew when DPS would take damage, or they were just not good at avoiding it, so it was a reactive sort of healing.

Eventually what happened to me, at least in Dungeons, was that healing got boring. I could just spam 1 heal and everyone was safe, really hard to wipe.

On raids it was different, but eventually out of the 50 abilities I might have, I only used 15. Also that, if the healer as damage skills, but they aren't worth the GCD, then they shouldn't have one.

Plateau

I liked Tera's lock-on design for action-oriented healing. It's not as hard or frustrating as skillshots/projectiles, and it's more engaging that tab-target. Aside from that I don't really have any strong preferences. As long as there are plenty of different tools for me to use and options to pick from, I'll be happy. And from what we know about subclasses and augments, I don't think the game will have any trouble meeting that expectation.

I'm really more concerned with the general combat design and encounter design. The only part specific to healing is that I want a good balance of proactive and reactive heal checks. I don't want healing to be like a twitch shooter, nor a 4X strategy game, but somewhere in-between. Preparation and practice should be just as important as reflexes and instinct. Y'knowha'm sayin'?

@Damokles @Caeryl @noaani

8 Tank + 8 Cleric + 8 Bard = 24 i guess ...

But yes 15 subclass... went to quick

Or Tank isn't support for you ?

Gimlog wrote: »

@Damokles @Caeryl @noaani

8 Tank + 8 Cleric + 8 Bard = 24 i guess ...

But yes 15 subclass... went to quick

Or Tank isn't support for you ?

Well i count the classes differently tbh.

2 melee enduring: Tank + Fighter
2 physical dps: Rogue + Ranger
2 magical dps: Mage + Summoner
2 supports: Bard + Cleric

Melee enduring doesnt just mean that they are typical tanks, but that they are able to endure overall damage BETTER then other base classes normally can.

I count the fighter as melee enduring, because if i imagine a fighter, then i dont see a glasscannon but rather a seasoned fighter who keeps on dishing out pain while fighting enemy after enemy (maybe not direct damage shielding, but rather lifeleeach etc?)

Caeryl

Gimlog wrote: »

@/Damokles @/Caeryl @/noaani

8 Tank + 8 Cleric + 8 Bard = 24 i guess ...

But yes 15 subclass... went to quick

Or Tank isn't support for you ?

I generally don’t consider tanking a group support role in a PvE environment. Their primary focus is typically on self-sustain and enemy control, whereas I would expect ally sustain and ally empowerment to be a key part of being a support role.

Gimlog wrote: »

@Damokles @Caeryl @noaani

8 Tank + 8 Cleric + 8 Bard = 24 i guess ...

But yes 15 subclass... went to quick

Or Tank isn't support for you ?

Most games have a trinity, where you have tank, healer and DPS.

Some games have a quad-based system, where you have tank, healer, DPS and support.

This thread is talking about support in terms of that quad-system, which is what Ashes is seemingly taking.

Based on this, the tank class can't be a support class, because it is a tank class.

Well it's only a matter of semantic.

To me support are those that keep the group alive by opposition at those that make it go forward.

Gimlog wrote: »

Well it's only a matter of semantic.

To me support are those that keep the group alive by opposition at those that make it go forward.

It isn't semantics. You were just mistaken.

Where is the mistake in a point of view ?

But you don't seem to want to be constructive and past over the difference in our view to speak of the difference there could be between a archetype and the 7 subclass influence by it.

In this topic it about support and healers, tank in or out don't matter in what I proposed.

How does a subclasse support will be able to support vs a archetype support.
The difference that could be between them was what I proposed.

Wandering Mist

@Gimlog @noaani @Caeryl and @Damokles You are all wrong. There is only ever room for ONE carry on the team, the rest are all supports.

.....woops, wrong game :P

Gimlog wrote: »

Where is the mistake in a point of view ?

But you don't seem to want to be constructive and past over the difference in our view to speak of the difference there could be between a archetype and the 7 subclass influence by it.

In this topic it about support and healers, tank in or out don't matter in what I proposed.

How does a subclasse support will be able to support vs a archetype support.
The difference that could be between them was what I proposed.

A support is a class that directly influences another player. A tank doesnt directly influence the players, but rather indirectly through keeping adds away. Supports directly heal or buff other players as their main directive.

Caeryl

Wandering Mist wrote: »

You are all wrong. There is only ever room for ONE carry on the team, the rest are all supports.

.....woops, wrong game :P

But what if the support was the carry the whole time?

Caeryl wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

You are all wrong. There is only ever room for ONE carry on the team, the rest are all supports.

.....woops, wrong game :P

But what if the support was the carry the whole time?

They all underestimate the full ap sona/lux support until they kill the enemy adc 1v1

WizardTim

Damokles wrote: »

Gimlog wrote: »

@Damokles @Caeryl @noaani

8 Tank + 8 Cleric + 8 Bard = 24 i guess ...

But yes 15 subclass... went to quick

Or Tank isn't support for you ?

Well i count the classes differently tbh.

2 melee enduring: Tank + Fighter
2 physical dps: Rogue + Ranger
2 magical dps: Mage + Summoner
2 supports: Bard + Cleric

Melee enduring doesnt just mean that they are typical tanks, but that they are able to endure overall damage BETTER then other base classes normally can.

I count the fighter as melee enduring, because if i imagine a fighter, then i dont see a glasscannon but rather a seasoned fighter who keeps on dishing out pain while fighting enemy after enemy (maybe not direct damage shielding, but rather lifeleeach etc?)

Kinda feel like they're going to hold to the trinity, and have 2 classes serve as multi-role versatiles.

Tank and Fighter being meat shields.
Rogue and Mage being DPS
Bard and Cleric being Support
Summoner and Ranger being versatile (able to fill any role based on build)

Summoner has a variety of options with summons and eidolons, ranger has always been a tougher fighter type but also includes ranged combat and a potential for dps and stealth roles. If rangers have a bit of access to magical (druid like) spells and magic, they'd be able to serve any role to a limited degree.

As for the OP, I personally prefer a healer class that requires attention and effort. Long as I can maximize my service to the group by shifted from defense to assault as the need shifts and changes, I'd be happy.

I particularly enjoy DPS focused healing classes, leech healers or healers that heal/support as they attack. I think the augmentation system and mixing class types will really help to give players that desperately needed and desired versatility.

As long as healing/support isn't actually limited to just a defensive role.

I also like alternative styles of support to healing itself. Played City of Heroes a lot and being able to avoid the normal "healer" style of defender that focused more on throwing shields and resistances on players to keep them alive that way rather than just healing them to keep them alive.

Gimlog wrote: »

Where is the mistake in a point of view ?

Right and wrong is a matter of facts, not points of view.

Fact; almost all MMO class systems are based around tanks, healers, DPS and in some games, support.

This doesn't leave room for tanks to be support any more than it leaves room for DPS to be support.

Being wrong or mistaken is not exactly a bad thing. Attempting to defend a factually incorrect position, however, is.