Leveling/PvP ideas for Tanks and Healers

We've all experienced the arduous task of leveling a tank or a healer for your guild, friends or maybe to experience something challenging. Some of us may have had help and some may have put in the time and patience to solo those levels. I hope there is going to be a way to help Tank/X and Cleric/X level effectively enough that players don't fall far behind compared to other DPS classes.

Since tanks generally don't have the damage output as a dps class, allow tanks to have less downtime in between pulls with better sustain options spent by whatever our resource is going to be (i. e. Rage). When it comes to PvP, tank damage output will be low but give us the tools to cause area denial, CC, damage mitigation cooldowns for a small area effect or nearby ally. Not to steal anything from WoW but their stances are a simple way to help Tanks pick the perfect stance for the situation. I want to be a menace on the field, not a shadow of a thought.

Healers will obviously do more healing than dps so I hope they'll have a nice dynamic between healing and dps'ing. Downtime is also usually something that holds a healer back doing subpar damage but easily staying alive through their healing. The templar in ESO had an ability to sap resources from dead mobs or players which would be a nice feature to reduce their downtime. In PvP, healers are typically saving their resource to keep their allies alive but never really having a chance to contribute or kill other players. Also, having to have a quickslot bar for all healing and buffing doesn't allow much room for offensive skills. I hope healers will receive the option of casting healing and buffing spells on allies while using the same spell and buffs on their enemies but it is the antithesis of the ability. Buffs are debuffs, direct healing causing damage and healing over time (HoT) are damage over time (DoT).

I think it is important that the primary class has these sustain and damage abilities instead of relying on the secondary class to provide them because then you'll pigeonhole players into certain Tank/X or Cleric/X combination.

What are your ideas?

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Wandering Mist

Sarevok wrote: »

The hope of this forum post is to give our developers our voiced opinions on tanks and healers. I don't expect tanks and healers to be able to solo at the same speed as a pure dps class but to also not be forgotten in the same instance. The benefit of Intrepid Studios being actual gamers is that they understand what our concerns are and hopefully know how to address them in the most fair way possible. It was just my fear with previous games that tanks and healers were going to be designed for a specific purpose and not be viable in all aspects of the game. This type of problem in design always leads to these class types being in demand, constantly. I am sure most of you that mainly play dps have experienced long wait times in dungeon queues due to the low supply of tanks and healers out there.

Here's to hoping tanks and healers will get the same attention to detail and dynamic design that dps classes will receive!

Cheers

I'd just like to point out that many games are developed by "actual gamers" but that doesn't mean they will produce a good product.

Nagash

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Sarevok wrote: »

The hope of this forum post is to give our developers our voiced opinions on tanks and healers. I don't expect tanks and healers to be able to solo at the same speed as a pure dps class but to also not be forgotten in the same instance. The benefit of Intrepid Studios being actual gamers is that they understand what our concerns are and hopefully know how to address them in the most fair way possible. It was just my fear with previous games that tanks and healers were going to be designed for a specific purpose and not be viable in all aspects of the game. This type of problem in design always leads to these class types being in demand, constantly. I am sure most of you that mainly play dps have experienced long wait times in dungeon queues due to the low supply of tanks and healers out there.

Here's to hoping tanks and healers will get the same attention to detail and dynamic design that dps classes will receive!

Cheers

I'd just like to point out that many games are developed by "actual gamers" but that doesn't mean they will produce a good product.

as of right now there are only three good RPG studios that I trust to make a good game and they are

cd project red
obsidian
Larian Studios

Noaani

Nagash wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Sarevok wrote: »

The hope of this forum post is to give our developers our voiced opinions on tanks and healers. I don't expect tanks and healers to be able to solo at the same speed as a pure dps class but to also not be forgotten in the same instance. The benefit of Intrepid Studios being actual gamers is that they understand what our concerns are and hopefully know how to address them in the most fair way possible. It was just my fear with previous games that tanks and healers were going to be designed for a specific purpose and not be viable in all aspects of the game. This type of problem in design always leads to these class types being in demand, constantly. I am sure most of you that mainly play dps have experienced long wait times in dungeon queues due to the low supply of tanks and healers out there.

Here's to hoping tanks and healers will get the same attention to detail and dynamic design that dps classes will receive!

Cheers

I'd just like to point out that many games are developed by "actual gamers" but that doesn't mean they will produce a good product.

as of right now there are only three good RPG studios that I trust to make a good game and they are
cd project red

obsidian

Larian Studios

Right now, I agree with you.

However, Bethesda hasn't gone so far as yet that they couldn't pull things back if they wanted. Fortunately, the Fallout series never really appealed to me, Starfield is little more than a curiosity, but if ES6 eventually proves to be the same buggy, frustrating yet immensely fun and massive as the last 3 ES games (without too much additional bullshittery added on the fringes), I'm good, despite their current issues.

Wandering Mist

Nagash wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Sarevok wrote: »

The hope of this forum post is to give our developers our voiced opinions on tanks and healers. I don't expect tanks and healers to be able to solo at the same speed as a pure dps class but to also not be forgotten in the same instance. The benefit of Intrepid Studios being actual gamers is that they understand what our concerns are and hopefully know how to address them in the most fair way possible. It was just my fear with previous games that tanks and healers were going to be designed for a specific purpose and not be viable in all aspects of the game. This type of problem in design always leads to these class types being in demand, constantly. I am sure most of you that mainly play dps have experienced long wait times in dungeon queues due to the low supply of tanks and healers out there.

Here's to hoping tanks and healers will get the same attention to detail and dynamic design that dps classes will receive!

Cheers

I'd just like to point out that many games are developed by "actual gamers" but that doesn't mean they will produce a good product.

as of right now there are only three good RPG studios that I trust to make a good game and they are
cd project red

obsidian

Larian Studios

I would also add FromSoftware and Platinum Games to that list.

Atama

noaani wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Sarevok wrote: »

The hope of this forum post is to give our developers our voiced opinions on tanks and healers. I don't expect tanks and healers to be able to solo at the same speed as a pure dps class but to also not be forgotten in the same instance. The benefit of Intrepid Studios being actual gamers is that they understand what our concerns are and hopefully know how to address them in the most fair way possible. It was just my fear with previous games that tanks and healers were going to be designed for a specific purpose and not be viable in all aspects of the game. This type of problem in design always leads to these class types being in demand, constantly. I am sure most of you that mainly play dps have experienced long wait times in dungeon queues due to the low supply of tanks and healers out there.

Here's to hoping tanks and healers will get the same attention to detail and dynamic design that dps classes will receive!

Cheers

I'd just like to point out that many games are developed by "actual gamers" but that doesn't mean they will produce a good product.

as of right now there are only three good RPG studios that I trust to make a good game and they are
cd project red

obsidian

Larian Studios

Right now, I agree with you.

However, Bethesda hasn't gone so far as yet that they couldn't pull things back if they wanted. Fortunately, the Fallout series never really appealed to me, Starfield is little more than a curiosity, but if ES6 eventually proves to be the same buggy, frustrating yet immensely fun and massive as the last 3 ES games (without too much additional bullshittery added on the fringes), I'm good, despite their current issues.

The true ES developers are top notch.

By that I mean the mod community of course.

Nagash

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Sarevok wrote: »

The hope of this forum post is to give our developers our voiced opinions on tanks and healers. I don't expect tanks and healers to be able to solo at the same speed as a pure dps class but to also not be forgotten in the same instance. The benefit of Intrepid Studios being actual gamers is that they understand what our concerns are and hopefully know how to address them in the most fair way possible. It was just my fear with previous games that tanks and healers were going to be designed for a specific purpose and not be viable in all aspects of the game. This type of problem in design always leads to these class types being in demand, constantly. I am sure most of you that mainly play dps have experienced long wait times in dungeon queues due to the low supply of tanks and healers out there.

Here's to hoping tanks and healers will get the same attention to detail and dynamic design that dps classes will receive!

Cheers

I'd just like to point out that many games are developed by "actual gamers" but that doesn't mean they will produce a good product.

as of right now there are only three good RPG studios that I trust to make a good game and they are
cd project red

obsidian

Larian Studios

I would also add FromSoftware and Platinum Games to that list.

platinum games are on their own level and I love them for it

Noaani

Atama wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Sarevok wrote: »

The hope of this forum post is to give our developers our voiced opinions on tanks and healers. I don't expect tanks and healers to be able to solo at the same speed as a pure dps class but to also not be forgotten in the same instance. The benefit of Intrepid Studios being actual gamers is that they understand what our concerns are and hopefully know how to address them in the most fair way possible. It was just my fear with previous games that tanks and healers were going to be designed for a specific purpose and not be viable in all aspects of the game. This type of problem in design always leads to these class types being in demand, constantly. I am sure most of you that mainly play dps have experienced long wait times in dungeon queues due to the low supply of tanks and healers out there.

Here's to hoping tanks and healers will get the same attention to detail and dynamic design that dps classes will receive!

Cheers

I'd just like to point out that many games are developed by "actual gamers" but that doesn't mean they will produce a good product.

as of right now there are only three good RPG studios that I trust to make a good game and they are
cd project red

obsidian

Larian Studios

Right now, I agree with you.

However, Bethesda hasn't gone so far as yet that they couldn't pull things back if they wanted. Fortunately, the Fallout series never really appealed to me, Starfield is little more than a curiosity, but if ES6 eventually proves to be the same buggy, frustrating yet immensely fun and massive as the last 3 ES games (without too much additional bullshittery added on the fringes), I'm good, despite their current issues.

The true ES developers are top notch.

By that I mean the mod community of course.

This is absolutely true.

Every ES game has four distinct phases that, imo, everyone should play through.

The first is the initial release. The bugs are always awesome and need to be experienced first hand.

The second is when the community fixes those bugs, and you get to play the game as it was intended, as opposed to as it was released.

The third is with all the expansions, but only after the bug fix mod has fixed the bugs for the expansions (no need to play bugs twice).

The forth is a few years later, when the community has put out large scale mods.

I *think* Bethesda know this though.

Wandering Mist

noaani wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Sarevok wrote: »

The hope of this forum post is to give our developers our voiced opinions on tanks and healers. I don't expect tanks and healers to be able to solo at the same speed as a pure dps class but to also not be forgotten in the same instance. The benefit of Intrepid Studios being actual gamers is that they understand what our concerns are and hopefully know how to address them in the most fair way possible. It was just my fear with previous games that tanks and healers were going to be designed for a specific purpose and not be viable in all aspects of the game. This type of problem in design always leads to these class types being in demand, constantly. I am sure most of you that mainly play dps have experienced long wait times in dungeon queues due to the low supply of tanks and healers out there.

Here's to hoping tanks and healers will get the same attention to detail and dynamic design that dps classes will receive!

Cheers

I'd just like to point out that many games are developed by "actual gamers" but that doesn't mean they will produce a good product.

as of right now there are only three good RPG studios that I trust to make a good game and they are
cd project red

obsidian

Larian Studios

Right now, I agree with you.

However, Bethesda hasn't gone so far as yet that they couldn't pull things back if they wanted. Fortunately, the Fallout series never really appealed to me, Starfield is little more than a curiosity, but if ES6 eventually proves to be the same buggy, frustrating yet immensely fun and massive as the last 3 ES games (without too much additional bullshittery added on the fringes), I'm good, despite their current issues.

The true ES developers are top notch.

By that I mean the mod community of course.

This is absolutely true.

Every ES game has four distinct phases that, imo, everyone should play through.

The first is the initial release. The bugs are always awesome and need to be experienced first hand.

The second is when the community fixes those bugs, and you get to play the game as it was intended, as opposed to as it was released.

The third is with all the expansions, but only after the bug fix mod has fixed the bugs for the expansions (no need to play bugs twice).

The forth is a few years later, when the community has put out large scale mods.

I *think* Bethesda know this though.

What I don't understand about Bethesda is that they release a game with bugs in it, then the unpaid community modders come along and fix it, then Bethesda releases the next game in the series that has the same bugs that the previous game had.

How the hell do you manage to put the same bug in 2 separate games?

Honestly though, the only enjoyment I get out of Bethesda games anymore is watching the speedrunning community exploit the hell out of it.

https://youtu.be/ulYNPbuga_g

Noaani

Wandering Mist wrote: »

How the hell do you manage to put the same bug in 2 separate games?

This is just speculation here, but my theory is that it is because Bethesda know how important the modding community is to the ES and Fallout games (most ES, but still...).

I think they purposefully put obvious bugs in to their games in order to get the modding community kicking off with an immediate project that sees a good portion of the hardcore modding community working together early.

As to why the same bugs can exist in different games - that would be for the same reason textures and models can exist in different games...

Wandering Mist

noaani wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

How the hell do you manage to put the same bug in 2 separate games?

This is just speculation here, but my theory is that it is because Bethesda know how important the modding community is to the ES and Fallout games (most ES, but still...).

I think they purposefully put obvious bugs in to their games in order to get the modding community kicking off with an immediate project that sees a good portion of the hardcore modding community working together early.

As to why the same bugs can exist in different games - that would be for the same reason textures and models can exist in different games...

I have a different theory which is that the programmers at Bethesda are incompetent idiots who don't care because they know the unpaid amateur modders can do a better job than them and will fix any mistakes they make.

Noaani

Wandering Mist wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

How the hell do you manage to put the same bug in 2 separate games?

This is just speculation here, but my theory is that it is because Bethesda know how important the modding community is to the ES and Fallout games (most ES, but still...).

I think they purposefully put obvious bugs in to their games in order to get the modding community kicking off with an immediate project that sees a good portion of the hardcore modding community working together early.

As to why the same bugs can exist in different games - that would be for the same reason textures and models can exist in different games...

I have a different theory which is that the programmers at Bethesda are incompetent idiots who don't care because they know the unpaid amateur modders can do a better job than them and will fix any mistakes they make.

This is what I used to think too, but then you look at the fact that almost all of the game works perfectly well, and the few bugs that do exist are all things that players can see and understand easily. They are far more obvious and in your face than bugs in other games, to the point where some of them seem like they are purposeful

If you assume that these bugs are there and players are supposed to see them, and so remove them from the equation, the remaining game has significantly fewer bugs than most other games.

Wandering Mist

noaani wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

How the hell do you manage to put the same bug in 2 separate games?

This is just speculation here, but my theory is that it is because Bethesda know how important the modding community is to the ES and Fallout games (most ES, but still...).

I think they purposefully put obvious bugs in to their games in order to get the modding community kicking off with an immediate project that sees a good portion of the hardcore modding community working together early.

As to why the same bugs can exist in different games - that would be for the same reason textures and models can exist in different games...

I have a different theory which is that the programmers at Bethesda are incompetent idiots who don't care because they know the unpaid amateur modders can do a better job than them and will fix any mistakes they make.

This is what I used to think too, but then you look at the fact that almost all of the game works perfectly well, and the few bugs that do exist are all things that players can see and understand easily. They are far more obvious and in your face than bugs in other games, to the point where some of them seem like they are purposeful

If you assume that these bugs are there and players are supposed to see them, and so remove them from the equation, the remaining game has significantly fewer bugs than most other games.

Errr... Did you play fallout76? Literally nothing about it "worked perfectly".

Damokles

Wandering Mist wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

How the hell do you manage to put the same bug in 2 separate games?

This is just speculation here, but my theory is that it is because Bethesda know how important the modding community is to the ES and Fallout games (most ES, but still...).

I think they purposefully put obvious bugs in to their games in order to get the modding community kicking off with an immediate project that sees a good portion of the hardcore modding community working together early.

As to why the same bugs can exist in different games - that would be for the same reason textures and models can exist in different games...

I have a different theory which is that the programmers at Bethesda are incompetent idiots who don't care because they know the unpaid amateur modders can do a better job than them and will fix any mistakes they make.

This is what I used to think too, but then you look at the fact that almost all of the game works perfectly well, and the few bugs that do exist are all things that players can see and understand easily. They are far more obvious and in your face than bugs in other games, to the point where some of them seem like they are purposeful

If you assume that these bugs are there and players are supposed to see them, and so remove them from the equation, the remaining game has significantly fewer bugs than most other games.

Errr... Did you play fallout76? Literally nothing about it "worked perfectly".

There is this delightfull video called "The Fall of 76" by the Internet Historian.

Noaani

Wandering Mist wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

How the hell do you manage to put the same bug in 2 separate games?

This is just speculation here, but my theory is that it is because Bethesda know how important the modding community is to the ES and Fallout games (most ES, but still...).

I think they purposefully put obvious bugs in to their games in order to get the modding community kicking off with an immediate project that sees a good portion of the hardcore modding community working together early.

As to why the same bugs can exist in different games - that would be for the same reason textures and models can exist in different games...

I have a different theory which is that the programmers at Bethesda are incompetent idiots who don't care because they know the unpaid amateur modders can do a better job than them and will fix any mistakes they make.

This is what I used to think too, but then you look at the fact that almost all of the game works perfectly well, and the few bugs that do exist are all things that players can see and understand easily. They are far more obvious and in your face than bugs in other games, to the point where some of them seem like they are purposeful

If you assume that these bugs are there and players are supposed to see them, and so remove them from the equation, the remaining game has significantly fewer bugs than most other games.

Errr... Did you play fallout76? Literally nothing about it "worked perfectly".

Nope.

noaani wrote: »

Fortunately, the Fallout series never really appealed to me

Atama

Fallout 76 is what happens when they don’t have the modding community to fix things.

They sell stone soup.

For people unfamiliar with the story, it’s a folk tale about hungry bums who enter a village with nothing but a pot, so they put a rock in it and claim it makes a delicious soup. They fill the pot with water and heat it up, and say they’ll share it but it just needs some final ingredients to make it perfect. So then villagers put in vegetables, and meat, and herbs, and then they all share the soup which is delicious. They thank the bums who basically tricked the villagers into sharing their food.

That’s a bit extreme but I think there’s some truth to it. Fallout 76 was like serving hot dirty water and trying to convince people that it’s soup.

Noaani

Atama wrote: »

Fallout 76 is what happens when they don’t have the modding community to fix things.

They sell ston

In terms of the bugs on that game, sure.

The biggest issues I've heard about that game though, seem to come from its design. They seem to stem from the fact that it is a single player game developer trying their hand at an online game, without knowing what an online game should be.

Wandering Mist

noaani wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Fallout 76 is what happens when they don’t have the modding community to fix things.

They sell ston

In terms of the bugs on that game, sure.

The biggest issues I've heard about that game though, seem to come from its design. They seem to stem from the fact that it is a single player game developer trying their hand at an online game, without knowing what an online game should be.

There are so many issues with Fallout76 I struggle to list them all, so just watch this video instead:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjrDbSgB9IU

It's not just about how broken the game was, but also Bethesda's conduct before and after launch. If Fallout76 had merely been a broken bug-filled mess that would have been one thing, but every time Bethesda interacted with the community, and literally every time Todd Howard spoke, it was lies and bullshit across the board.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghdOSTAda1w

This video sums it all up quite nicely. I really hope that Intrepid will take a lesson from Fallout76 and be honest with their players instead of trying to screw them over or treating us like idiots who can't see past their obvious bullshit. Hell, since that video was released there has been even more drama surrounding fallout76 like how Bethesda banned a legitimate player who had put hundreds of hours into the game for having "too many items"....

It's OK though, because according to Todd Howard, it's not about how the game launches, but what it becomes. That's honestly what pisses me off the most about people like Todd Howard. They make a mistake, they know the made a mistake but instead of owning up to it they try to blame someone else for as long as they can before offering a half-hearted "I'm sorry, I'll do better next time", then wait for your back to be turned before doing it all over again. I'd expect that kind of behaviour from a 10 year old child, not a fucking 48 year old executive producer of one of the biggest games companies in the world.

Atama

noaani wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Fallout 76 is what happens when they don’t have the modding community to fix things.

They sell ston

In terms of the bugs on that game, sure.

The biggest issues I've heard about that game though, seem to come from its design. They seem to stem from the fact that it is a single player game developer trying their hand at an online game, without knowing what an online game should be.

But it’s all really bad.

You’re right that the bugs weren’t the only problem with the game. There were many design flaws that would have made the game suck even if it was technically perfect with no bugs. Conversely, the bugs were so bad that even if the game had been designed well, with fun mechanics and goals and story and a reason to play it (and no gouging players with micro transactions) the bugs alone would be worthy of ridicule. It would have still been infamous.

It’s like the Bud Light of crappy games; rather than Tastes Great/Less Filling, it’s Unplayable Bug-ridden Mess/Terrible Design Lacking Entertainment Value.

Noaani

Atama wrote: »

the bugs alone would be worthy of ridicule. It would have still been infamous.

Sounds like the last three ES games.

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