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Alpha Two testing is currently taking place five days each week. More information about Phase II and Phase III testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
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Do We Need Tulnar by Launch?
skafftaruss
Member, Phoenix Initiative, Hero of the People, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
My opinion is NO. It should be an expansion. I reminisce about Everquest and its first expansion known as Kunark (with lizard people). I believe this was the apex of that old MMO game. Switching back (to AOC), Tulnar was promised in Kickstarter. Yet, don’t get your hopes up that it will be guaranteed at roll out. What say you? Be nice.
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Do we need Tulnar and to that I say NO
Otherwise you have to come up with a race change mechanism
Watch your mouth or i will have to sew it shut!
(Or glue it shut in nagashs case, because stitches wont hold in his wrinkly, dry and old skin)
Oh my bones are shaking in fear
If they need to hold something off, naval combat in general would be my suggestion. It uses resources from every department and is actual content - which means it would make for a good expansion without needing to hold anything else back with it.
Yes we do.
While I don't think Tulnar are a thing to drop, this simply wouldn't be the case.
First, Intrepid did specifically state that they reserve the right to not having any Kickstarter stretch goals at launch if they will delay the launch, but that any not in at launch will be added at a later date.
Second, if Ashes did add Tulnar at a later date, they would not be the first MMO to add a race to the game post launch, even a race that required reworking of existing armor and weapon models to make work.
Third, if Ashes did decide now to add Tulnar at a later date, they would obviously still develop character creation tools and such with them in mind, as they are already on their mind.
The reworking is kind of what I'm getting at. It would require resources which at that point could be considered better spent elsewhere. Promised content doesn't mean it will happen either. The action side of combat for example has already been said by steven it would likely be dropped if they couldn't get it to a good state. Followed by him saying he doesn't think they'll have to drop it.
As someone who would be disappointed if tulnar aren't available on launch I would say they aren't integral to ashes like the node system or even pvx. However with something like a race as potentially unique as the tulnar I remain skeptical that if they aren't launch content the underlying systems would account for them. If the support is there why wait for potentially more work to do in the future instead of just solidifying it now?
I would be okay with the Tulnar not being a starting race, if they gave eveyone who backed it before the launch
a one time, free race change to Tulnar at the time of their implementation.
I plan to only play Tulnar, and dont want to redo everything because they didnt implement a race that they teasered at the beginning...
These days, character skeletal modelling can do most of that heavy lifting. If items are designed around the idea of being attached to a skeleton rather than to a full model, the developers can then take the items already created and their computer will do most of the rest, leaving the developers to just go through and make some finer adjustments.
This also works for animations for emotes, abilities and other such things.
I can only see two things about the Tulnar that make them any harder than any other race - at least based on the concept art.
The first is that they have a tail. This will need to be either animated individually for each tail type (I can count three on the concepts I have seen), or Intrepid will need to come up with a system whereby tails move freely.
The second thing is that there appears to be at least one ungulate, with what appears to be digitigrade legs. if they actually attempt to do this well, it will be a challenge.
However, all of that combined is still less than 5% of the work naval combat would likely be, which is why I suggested naval combat as a better kickstarter stretch goal to hold back on rather than Tulnar.
Be a little sad because of how excited i am to play them but I want them to take there time with them and make them as awesome as possible.
ATM I want them to focus on the surface of verra. If they have to, I'd think it would work well if they released the underrelm later in a big patch with the tulnar.
Saying this, I don't think we need to assume they can't get tulnar done for launch. I could see them having the time they need to get tulnar done while they are finishing up other parts of the game. After seeing dwarfs, it's hard to tell how long it would take them to get the other races and the character creator done.
I think i'd prefer them making everyone re-roll instead of allowing race changes.
I'm confused by what you mean by the underlying system needing to account for them and the system supporting them?
They are just another race with their own assets. Even if they have to make a new rigging with new animations, they don't need to rework what they have already done to add them in. You would have to define system but for the most part, everything needed to "support" them is already there.
It's not like you have to remake your game every time you want to add something new to it.
Three? I see only a single tail type in the concept art posted on the wiki. Seems to be lizard-like. I see a variant with a barb on the end, optional spikes, and some width variation. But for the purposes of animation, such variations are irrelevant. They'll only need one set of tail animations. Because of the way the models are created. If you know anything about 3D modeling, you can see this is the case from the livestream they showed. They are obviously using a universal character skeleton which already has a "tail" bone (though it is currently being used for the skirt on the female dwarf clothing). The bug they are having with ground collision atm likely indicates that digitigrade feet could be an option for playable characters (the collision system was working three years ago, the most reasonable explanation for why it broke now is that they changed it to allow feet with no heels). While the Tulnar will look unique, there won't actually be anything unique about them under the hood. Of course, because of that, there's no reason they wouldn't be available at launch.
You all are thinking this is a lot more work than it actually is, because in the past a race like this would actually have been a huge amount of work. Using unrigged mesh, as most games in 2017 when they posted the kickstarter for Ashes did, would have in fact made the Tulnar almost impossible. This is probably why they were listed as a stretch goal for a game entirely built on a basic system that was completely new. But evidently they decided to go with rigged mesh over a universal character skeleton as mentioned, which makes the Tulnar much much easier to create.
Imagination is the highest kite you can fly.
I guess that undead lizardmen could look kind of cool in your army...
Everything honestly. From the body morphing to the artists' workflow. Of course it can be added on and done afterwards but thats what I have my doubts about. Its not just here's a body and and maybe some slightly animalistic limbs or maybe intrepid pulls a sonic and adds a few pieces like back spikes or other more unique flares, though not fundamentally changing from a humanoid shape. Are they always shown or hidden when in armor? Do certain pieces show them through, or does the armor texture cover them? I'd imagine as well manually adjustments to make sure that there isn't unsightly stretching and just generally making sure the texture looks right when morphed with the body. Plus if I'm understanding it right each individual armor piece will have a slight difference to reflect the race of who's wearing it.
The way I feel about it is if its not launch content it'll either end up being "too much work" or toned down from what they could potentially be.
None of what you talk here are overly hard to implement.
If they decide to put spikes on them, there is less work in them than you'd think.
If they were there, and if the developers decided to keep them there with armor on (why have them if they aren't shown when wearing armor?), and if developers decide they don't want the spikes poking through the armor, then all they would do is create three or four textures, and have those textures pull the primary and secondary colors from the appropriate item the player is wearing.
The whole thing is literally just a few textures.
As to armor being unique for each race, that will likely be to a somewhat modular system. On the back end, armor will be designed somewhat in full, but very basic. From there, each race will have something distinct that is added to each armor type.
What this means is that rather than having to make a fully unique armor piece for each race, the developers need only make the one item, and then for each race they only make the parts of it that are unique. Since these pieces can work similarly to the textures on spikes, they wouldn't even need to make one for each model, as they could very easily be reused several times.
In terms of animation, tail length is key. Most of the tails are of average length, but there are some that are much shorter and one that is significantly longer.
The animations for these would look off if not done based on length.
I can have them from mobs
Lineage 2 Veteran
Nothing you said there sounds like what I would call a rework, it just sounds like more work. I also don't see how those are big issues, they are just decisions that need to be made.
Why does the level of effort change because it is at launch or not? Why does it become suddenly become too much work after launch?
It's the other way around. For the most part, a game can't start making money until it's released. Every day they develop the game, they are spending money and not getting any back. They are losing money. If they need Tulnar for launch and they aren't done, they will be encouraged to slim down requirements so they don't delay the launch. Hell, even if they aren't close to launch, they have a reason to push them out sooner so artists can be freed up to do other things that are necessary for the Launch.
Not saying they will have to but if they do end up waiting until after launch, then they don't have a reason to push them out quicker. They can take there time as ashes will be generating money. If anything, there is an incentive to put some extra effort into the tulnar and market their release. Using new races as a tool for marketing new content is pretty common in MMOs these days.
Do you have some experience where you felt the devs started slacking on content after they released the game?