Making levelling interesting for veteran players

I'm sure I'm not alone here when I say that as a veteran mmorpg player I find levelling new characters very easy and very tedious. I honestly can't remember the last time an mmo challenged me while levelling and typically the only thing that drives me through it is the thought of end-game content or an engaging story. This is understandable because developers need to cater the levelling to brand new players. Make the levelling too hard and you'll drive away newer players and the playerbase will dry up.

In single player games you often have various difficulty settings to cater to lots of different players. This is great but doesn't translate well to mmorpgs where you could have a veteran and a newbie questing in the same area. You can't just increase the stats of the mobs for the veteran player because then the newbie would struggle. You could decrease the stats of the veteran but this would cause issues of scaling at end-game, plus this wouldn't necessarily make the game harder but just the levelling to take longer.

This is the other problem. You can't just alter the base stats and expect that alone to engage players. Anyone who has played WoW Vanilla/Classic will tell you just how boring it is. It's not even that it's harder, it just takes a lot longer to kill anything and level up. I don't know about anyone else but I'd love to see mobs that force me to use my entire toolkit. The game gives me CC? Make me use it. The game gives me interrupts? Make me use them. Of course if they added these mechanics in, new players would struggle. You could potentially make it so that the mobs only use more advanced tactics on veteran players but what happens when a veteran player groups up with a newbie?

Has anyone got any ideas on how to make levelling engaging for veteran players? Or is it just something we have to put up with?

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Noaani

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Is there a way to achieve both goals?

In terms of leveling content, I don't believe so.

To me, the closest thing to an answer is to put in a leveling scheme that has a fairly low bar, and simply make the assumption that veteran players will rush through it.

To me, the issue here is veteran players expecting challenge while leveling a character.

We should know better imo.

Wandering Mist

noaani wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Is there a way to achieve both goals?

In terms of leveling content, I don't believe so.

To me, the closest thing to an answer is to put in a leveling scheme that has a fairly low bar, and simply make the assumption that veteran players will rush through it.

To me, the issue here is veteran players expecting challenge while leveling a character.

We should know better imo.

What I'd really like to see is a system that rewards good play with faster levelling speed, which should appeal to the veterans without impacting the newbies. I just can't see a way of doing this that isn't horrendously hard to balance or be easily abused.

unknown

This content has been removed.

Caeryl

noaani wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Is there a way to achieve both goals?

In terms of leveling content, I don't believe so.

To me, the closest thing to an answer is to put in a leveling scheme that has a fairly low bar, and simply make the assumption that veteran players will rush through it.

To me, the issue here is veteran players expecting challenge while leveling a character.

We should know better imo.

Ashes leveling process is minimum 30 days while rushing it (they claimed 45 but someone always finds a way to rig the system). They HAVE to make the leveling process engaging and it HAS to teach players to use their class.

Razor 615

Jahlon wrote: »

There really isn't any good way to make "leveling" fun by means of grinding on mobs. I don't care the level of Monster AI, MOB grinding will always be a mind numbing experience.

Now, Intrepid has said they have some plans to make the leveling interesting, and we won't be blitzing to max level in a week, the goal is roughly 45 days for max level.

When they say 45 days, do you know if they think 1080 hours of playtime or 45 days of playing for certain time a day, but how many hours a day do they account for in that? hmm.

Wandering Mist

Razorath wrote: »

Jahlon wrote: »

There really isn't any good way to make "leveling" fun by means of grinding on mobs. I don't care the level of Monster AI, MOB grinding will always be a mind numbing experience.

Now, Intrepid has said they have some plans to make the leveling interesting, and we won't be blitzing to max level in a week, the goal is roughly 45 days for max level.

When they say 45 days, do you know if they think 1080 hours of playtime or 45 days of playing for certain time a day, but how many hours a day do they account for in that? hmm.

We have no idea. They have never clarified what "45 days to max level" means.

mcstackerson

Discovery can also be an aspect of gameplay. As long as your players have what they need to play the game, i think it's ok to give them things to figure out.

You choose your skills and the upgrades you want so players will ideally making their own builds. There is also your weapon progression and combo attack system which plays a role in your combat. You aren't just relying on your class to do damage.

With this freedom, I think they should go more the route of creating content that pressures players to utilize all the tools at there disposal. When it comes to combat, i'd hope that most combat mechanics would appear early and stay there so players can get used to them.

Noaani

Caeryl wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Is there a way to achieve both goals?

In terms of leveling content, I don't believe so.

To me, the closest thing to an answer is to put in a leveling scheme that has a fairly low bar, and simply make the assumption that veteran players will rush through it.

To me, the issue here is veteran players expecting challenge while leveling a character.

We should know better imo.

Ashes leveling process is minimum 30 days while rushing it (they claimed 45 but someone always finds a way to rig the system). They HAVE to make the leveling process engaging and it HAS to teach players to use their class.

I would be more inclined to say the leveling process in Ashes has to provide players the means to learn their class if the player wishes to do so.

If a game had the mandate that the leveling process HAD to teach players how to play their class, the game would at some point require a test from players to ensure they had learned what was being taught.

As I've said before, I am personally ok with this.

However, that is not what a sandbox game is all about. A sandbox game presents players with systems and content, and then leaves players to do as they wish.

Caeryl

noaani wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Is there a way to achieve both goals?

In terms of leveling content, I don't believe so.

To me, the closest thing to an answer is to put in a leveling scheme that has a fairly low bar, and simply make the assumption that veteran players will rush through it.

To me, the issue here is veteran players expecting challenge while leveling a character.

We should know better imo.

Ashes leveling process is minimum 30 days while rushing it (they claimed 45 but someone always finds a way to rig the system). They HAVE to make the leveling process engaging and it HAS to teach players to use their class.

I would be more inclined to say the leveling process in Ashes has to provide players the means to learn their class if the player wishes to do so.

If a game had the mandate that the leveling process HAD to teach players how to play their class, the game would at some point require a test from players to ensure they had learned what was being taught.

As I've said before, I am personally ok with this.

However, that is not what a sandbox game is all about. A sandbox game presents players with systems and content, and then leaves players to do as they wish.

Sandbox doesn’t mean go anywhere and do anything without any requirements.

Requiring players have a certain amount of knowledge to successfully go to areas with high level mobs does not mean Ashes isn’t a sandbox game.

Sarevok

The game really shouldn't have to teach a player how to play. Give the player the basics in the first 10-20 levels and then let them discover how to play their class and the game by themselves. The player can either research and test things themselves or watch a YouTube video. Too much hand holding for my taste. Buying a game does not entitle a player anything. There is no trophy for participation here.

Story quest should start off easy then gradual get more difficult. I think whether they should require you to have a group complete quests or allow you to solo everything would be a good discussion for later. Side quests are just fillers in between the major story quests. Leveling nodes will contribute to your XP bar and I do hope PvP will be a good source of XP as well.

As much as I dislike grinding it will always be necessary. Whether we are grinding resources for nodes, reagents/materials for crafting, PvP honor (if they will have something like this), XP or just mobs for some money/items it will always be in games as it is in real life.

Noaani

Caeryl wrote: »

Sandbox doesn’t mean go anywhere and do anything without any requirements.

Requiring players have a certain amount of knowledge to successfully go to areas with high level mobs does not mean Ashes isn’t a sandbox game.

Funny thing is - I don't disagree with any of this.

However...

Content that is gated can not consist of all content that is required to get to the level cap. At least, not if you want to continue to call the game a sandbox. While calling a game a sandbox doesn't preclude some content being blocked, it does preclude completely blocking the path to the level cap.

In fact, Intrepid have actually already basically said that some content will be blocked (or at least a reasonably inference can be made).

The game will have tiered raids, and the easiest way to implement tiered raiding is to block content from one tier until the content from the previous tier has been defeated. This means that everyone in the raid needs to have a solid understanding of what is required of a given tier before the raid as a whole can move on to the next tier.

This kind of thing works perfectly well for raid content - and arguably even for group content (though not really for players that rely on pick up groups). And yes, it is still a sandbox game even with these content blocks in place.

However, this simply wouldn't work if it were character levels that were blocked. Once you block character level, you are basically telling people that half of the games content is not available to them until they perform a specific task - and that is precisely when we leave the realm of a sandbox MMO.

The best they can do from a development perspective is put the content in the game that give players the opportunity to learn, and then just hope they learn. Thing is, until players get to that content - if they ever get to that content - they won't know what it is they are learning or what it is they should be learning.

Learning a concept about your class while you are level 25 is no different to learning that same concept about your class when you are three quarters of the way through the games raiding content - in both situations, you will only learn about it when it becomes an important thing for you to know, and when ever that happens, there will be people that already expect you to know.

Wandering Mist

Content that is gated can not consist of all content that is required to get to the level cap. At least, not if you want to continue to call the game a sandbox. While calling a game a sandbox doesn't preclude some content being blocked, it does preclude completely blocking the path to the level cap.

That all depends on HOW those areas are blocked off. If it's like in FFXIV where there is literally a wall blocking off certain areas until you have reached some arbitrary point in the story, then I agree with you that that isn't a sandbox. Those kinds of arbitrary barriers really annoy me, whether it be level, gear or story that blocks you off. Those kinds of requirements have no place in an open world game in my opinion.

However, there are many more (better) ways of doing it, the simplest being making the mobs stronger in certain areas. In Runescape there is absolutely nothing stopping you from walking the entire length of the world at level 1....as long as you can survive the mobs. That to me is the beauty of a sandbox game, it gives players the choice to challenge themselves if they want to. See this mob that's 5 levels higher than you? You can fight it if you want to.

Wandering Mist

Sarevok wrote: »

The game really shouldn't have to teach a player how to play. Give the player the basics in the first 10-20 levels and then let them discover how to play their class and the game by themselves. The player can either research and test things themselves or watch a YouTube video. Too much hand holding for my taste. Buying a game does not entitle a player anything. There is no trophy for participation here.

Story quest should start off easy then gradual get more difficult. I think whether they should require you to have a group complete quests or allow you to solo everything would be a good discussion for later. Side quests are just fillers in between the major story quests. Leveling nodes will contribute to your XP bar and I do hope PvP will be a good source of XP as well.

As much as I dislike grinding it will always be necessary. Whether we are grinding resources for nodes, reagents/materials for crafting, PvP honor (if they will have something like this), XP or just mobs for some money/items it will always be in games as it is in real life.

That is the theory yes, but in practice it hardly ever happens.

Noaani

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Content that is gated can not consist of all content that is required to get to the level cap. At least, not if you want to continue to call the game a sandbox. While calling a game a sandbox doesn't preclude some content being blocked, it does preclude completely blocking the path to the level cap.

That all depends on HOW those areas are blocked off. If it's like in FFXIV where there is literally a wall blocking off certain areas until you have reached some arbitrary point in the story, then I agree with you that that isn't a sandbox. Those kinds of arbitrary barriers really annoy me, whether it be level, gear or story that blocks you off. Those kinds of requirements have no place in an open world game in my opinion.

However, there are many more (better) ways of doing it, the simplest being making the mobs stronger in certain areas. In Runescape there is absolutely nothing stopping you from walking the entire length of the world at level 1....as long as you can survive the mobs. That to me is the beauty of a sandbox game, it gives players the choice to challenge themselves if they want to. See this mob that's 5 levels higher than you? You can fight it if you want to.

Yeah, but that isn't a content gate, it is progression.

If you are level 20, and there are level 30 mobs in your way, that isn't a gate, it is simply telling you to kill level 20 mobs until you hit level 21, then you go after level 21 mobs until you hit level 22 and so on.

It isn't a gate, it is progression. As long as there is content suitable in challenge between the level you are at and the level you want to get to, players will simply take that path.

That isn't a way to ensure players will learn anything about their class, as it doesn't provide players with a situation where they need to learn. An opportunity to do so if they want, sure - but every game has that.

Plateau

It's nice when @noaani argues my points for me so I don't have to spend so much time ranting on the internet.

Basically, you can put lots of challenges for veterans alongside the leveling process (which hopefully make the leveling process faster for them), but you can't put any real skill gates within the basic leveling structure.

It's a sandbox game, so there should be lots of content options. And we already know there will be lots of build options. (Maybe not everyone will have an interrrupt ability.) The game just gives players a bunch of tools and abilities, and a number of different options for earning EXP, and lets them decide how best to use them (or ignore them). You can't teach anything directly, because that would force every players to go through a rigid "test" where they have to do the same content with the same build.

The problem is only made worse because some portion of players will always seek out the most efficient path to max level, while others will seek out the easiest path. If you force people down the same path with the same challenges, people will still look for another route. But instead of finding content tailored to different playstyles, instead they'll just find exploits, or figure out how to get carried, or limit themselves to narrow parts of the game that don't require so many specific skills. Or they'll just find a different game to play altogether.

Noaani

leonerdo wrote: »

It's nice when @noaani argues my points for me so I don't have to spend so much time ranting on the internet.

I don't debate people, I debate ideas.

I don't think I have come across a single regular poster on these forums that I either always agree with or always disagree with - even that one particular poster that isn't around much any more - I often agreed with him.

---

One thing I always liked about leveling a character in EQ2 when it first came out was the Heritage Quests the game offered.

These were quests that rewarded players with a (usually) very good item for the level range they were in, and the rewards were popular/iconic items from the original EQ (hence the name *Heritage Quest*).

As quests, these were completely separate from the leveling content the game provided, of which there were always at least two areas for any given level range you could go to - though usually three or four areas.

As such, these quests were absolutely not essential for leveling up.

Most of them required either a group or a raid (though usually only 12 players, not a full raid). As such, players without guilds that helped each other out would either skip over these completely and just level on the regular hub based quest system, or would spend time spamming in chat trying to find a group/raid to do what ever stage they wanted to do.

Players in guilds that all worked together though, would often set aside some time every week or what ever and run the entire guild through a given Heritage quest - or part of a Heritage Quest, as some of them were quite time consuming.

It wasn't necessarily faster to level up your character doing these quests, but it did reward players with a good item, and also gave experience to the guild of the player that completes the quest - which was very hard to come by at the time until a guild started actual end game raiding.

So the quests were worth it for players with the resources to be able to do them effectively.

The other thing I liked about them is that they were content that was somewhat harder than other content of the same level. This meant that by the time players in guilds that actually did these quests at an appropriate levels got up to the level cap, they already had a base understanding of what to do in a raid.

Now, this is the kind of thing I have in mind when I say they can provide content for players to learn on, but they can't force that learning on to players.

Players that didn't want to learn how to play properly would simply outlevel the content, and then go back to finish these quests, as the rewards were the only weapons that could be put in player housing, thus most players had a wall of Heritage Quest rewards, and so players would want to collect them all, as it were. This made sure that the content had near 100% of characters using it at some point - which was important for the few quests that had instances specific to the quests.

However, especially to players of the original EQ, the real reward from these quests was the continuation of the story of each individual item and the characters associated with it, as the quests were very story driven and not afraid to push ahead a narrative greater than that of just their own purview.

In fact, the story of some of these quests eventually merged, after several years of steady progression, and formed the main antagonist of several expansions.

---

Translating this to Ashes, I think it would be awesome if the game simply provided players with many basic leveling paths as per the normal node based content - and then had several quests at each level range that delved deeper in to the time before The Fall.

To me, the key with this is not about providing a faster leveling experience. If anything, specifically with Ashes, I think the leveling process should be somewhat slower while doing these quests in comparison to regular questing/level grinding - or what ever Ashes provides us with.

The basis for rewards for this content should be (in no order) the item, node experience (which imo should go to the node you are a citizen of), the storytelling/lore expansion, guild experience, and the learning opportunity.

In my opinion, character experience need not be a specific factor in this type of thing, as players with items from quests like this while leveling up will inherently be a an advantage over those without them, and thus will be able to level up faster. Additionally, people taking on this type of content while it is level appropriate are the kind of people that play with an amount of organisation that will inherently give them an advantage while leveling, and they are in no need of further advantage - again, imo.

I'd also make it so the items are desirable for display in our houses.

In terms of issues, my main one is that I personally believe content like this that drives the narrative of the over all world should be available to all players. This means it can't be dependent on node status. The content can be made only available from one node, but it should not matter what state that node - or any other node - is in.

consultant

Well from your original post looks what you meant is making leveling more challenging and therefore more fun. I mean Ashes of Creation looks pretty good when it comes to leveling and questing but you said for veteran players. Now some toons talked about mentoring during leveling process but think that topic been already been discussed in other posts.

Leveling mainly comprises of questing and dungeouns and open world mobs. There maybe other things like treasure hunts exploration, professions and so on but so not to make the topic too broad lest just stick to making the journey to max level challenging. (going to omitt the word fun intentionally because it is a catch all....Ashes of Creation is working on making everything as fun as they can in time alloted)

1)Well I already mentioned Having an Apocalyptic Mode in another post but no different than a hard mode or difficulty setting. But there should incentives and rewards to do that other than the title. As far the criteria and actual game mechanics like smarter AI and tougher mobs. (Already posted about that) well sure the devs could come up with something good. But just to be clear in wow there is some thing called Iron Man mode. Not suggestion to use that as a template just listing example of a similar idea.

2)Have option to do herioc versions of low level dungeouns and quests. Now pretty sure there are plenty of non-veterans that also think leveling is not too hard and would be willing to do them so would be not too hard to find people to do them.. A huge incentive to do this type of content which may have mentoring aspects to it like using interupts would be getting more experience and or gold. So if they would just be willing to put out a little more effort they would go through level process faster but would be learning more so not a big deal.

3)Glad some of you mentioned Runescape, because I wanted to say that Ashes of Creation could put a variety of quests in the game And showing what type they are.. Talking about quests that are brain teasers and puzzle quests and Runescape style quests. If there is a puzzle quest and you do not like them but you know ahead of time that it is a puzzle quest then just do not do it or if you do at least you know ahead of time what type it is going to be. Would not recommend lenght of time of Runescape quests. But in some games you have to figure out what quest is. Like an npc says well I am missing my trusty sword. Then as you adventrue you find a trusty sword and you have to figure out to give it to him. (horrible example) And remember who said it. So now that you have item in inventory next time you talk to him then option to sword back to him is there. Kind of like a hidden quest. Thing is player does quests that he wants or figure outs.

4) Now as far as open world mobs. The only thing I can think of is making the world so that the further you go into it the harder it gets to the point were some zones you have to group up to go into. Kind of gradually increasing difficulty. You may be thinking things are already that way, but not really you go up in level mobs go up in level dificulty stays about the same entire game. So there would be zones specifically designed for veteran players. (repost) As far as making the whole world challenging well better off wearing old gear.

Thing is do not know if we are even going to have zones. Suspect mobs might just have percentage hp that adjusts to player or group item level which could be done to certain extent if the floor is not so far from the ceiling. (Just going to skip over all the game mechanics for that one)

Another thing that could be done is design the game in such a way that a veteran player can use his cc and kiting better so that he is able to pull more while inexperienced player has to pull one at a time.

Another thing that could be done is have challenge mobs. You could have one tough mob in a group of five mobs and well veteran could just pull them all but non veteran has to divide and conquer and kill tough mob seperately and really close by have another group of the same type mob lets say all cats but much tougher that only veterans or groups of people attack. So you can have really tough mobs kind mixed in the same area with normal mobs with out to much of an affect on actual game. Kind of like being near a world boss and being careful not to pull it.

Want to say that leveling in general will be more fun if done with guildes or other players on server, which would be more likely if down scaling for toons so they could play with guildies instead of lone wolfing it to max level. Could say a lot more about scaling but would be repost.

But really leveling is not suppose to be challenging and is more of a mentoring program especailly in early levels.
So Ashes might. think it better to do everything I just typed at max level. Low level dungeouns are really easy cause they are just a learning tool. So level 20 dungeoun not designed for fully geared level 20 veteran player. not sure if you are even going to be at level 20 long enough to get fully geared.

Think MMOs make mob dificulty in general too easy. But you also have to consider how much skill you have.
I mean there is no way you are going to get anywhere close to the challenge of herioc raiding from open world mobs open world bosses maybe but not mobs. So even if they implement some if the things I have typed might still not be on par with the challenge that you are looking for.

But you should always be trying to hone in your skills using cc if you can even if it is not required. Think maybe you ought to have the mind set of immersion when leveling and using mobs as target dummies.
Mobs have to live long enough though.

But one of the key elements that is in the middle of all this is how far is the floor from the ceiling. Not going to post about this cause well it would be a repost. Plus this post is already really long.

Vanqor

I feel quite strongly about this as well. Have been trying to find an MMO that provides regular, challenging gameplay, but there are almost none anymore.

To me, the solution seems to be to have variable difficulties in the mobs, and I cannot see why this is not done more often.

Almost every MMO has some type of "Elite" mob. These are usually distinguishble from other mobs. This system could be elaborated upon to provide several degrees/types of difficulty. To make this interesting, give the difficult mobs more skills and better AI. Also, for this to be interesting, more difficult mobs have to give more rewards - i.e. risk vs reward.

A supplement could be the "mob camps" as in older games, where there would generally be bigger risks of dying because of aggro issues etc.

An MMO where I never die is no fun to me, so here's hoping this is not another MMO where you can put more attention to Youtube than the game combat.

Lalli

I'll probably be one of the few people to say I loved leveling in Runescape (oldschool). Working for a 99 (max level) wasn't an easy task and when you finally got it it felt rewarding. People would have 99 parties and celebrate with their friends and clan often times. You could level what you want such as making pures and fight and monsters you wanted. I also loved questing in runescape. best game for questing but thats besides this point.

Wandering Mist

Lalli wrote: »

I'll probably be one of the few people to say I loved leveling in Runescape (oldschool). Working for a 99 (max level) wasn't an easy task and when you finally got it it felt rewarding. People would have 99 parties and celebrate with their friends and clan often times. You could level what you want such as making pures and fight and monsters you wanted. I also loved questing in runescape. best game for questing but thats besides this point.

I wouldn't call leveling in OSRS hard, just long, tedious and boring. Left clicking on trees to cut them down literally takes no effort or skill at all, no matter how long you do it for. I agree that reaching level 99 in any of the skills was an achievement but not because it was hard.

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