I dont remember how long it would take for a dedicated AoC gamer to reach max lv, but let's asume that it would take 6 months and let's asume that max lv for the first year is lv 70 and that after 40lv the lv up progress becomes gradually slower. Hypothetical numbers.
If a player leveling a Fighter/Fighter get some strong abilities/passives, one new at lvs: 56 59 64 68 69 70, that means that this veteran needs to incorporate these new strong, class defining abilities in their PvP or PvE toolkit.
Some players will make better use of them by understanding how to make the older abilities work around the new.
Then every 6 months or year new Chapters should be released at a cost. A bit of lore. 1 epic boss, 3-4 new hunting zones.
Max lv becomes 76 and new armor sets can be equiped at 72.
The least popular abilities of lv 40-50 should become two-in-on and a new ability at 74 and a new passive at 75.
It should take about 4 months to get from 70 to 76.
Then a new Chapter from IS.
These keep the veteran players interested.
The new abilities. The changes to the classes. The new hunting zones. The new armors and weapons and their theme.
Every mmorpg out there right now is: get to lv 60 (max lv) in 5 days. Oh boy this is where the end game starts!!!
In 5 days a player has unlocked all of a classes abilities and killed noob mobs.
And then they proceed to enchant their gear up to +16 then +EXTRA +MEGA +TITAN. That is boring.
No wonder people are altoholics in mmorpgs now and all they do is farm cosmetics for their firemage character, for their bard character, for their rogue character, for their fisher character, for their real estate character, for their chiropractor character.
I miss the days that NapoleonDynamite from the PublicRelations guild was the most known Elven Archer in the server.
Not because of his youtube channel, but because it took that player 6 months on the same toon and he was one of the first skilled high lv players getting involved in the guild sieges and wars out in the open, making a name for himself and his guild.
Oh now he is playing a Summoner. They are not OP in this new Chapter but oh well, I guess the guy likes archers and simmoners. He will be known as LittlePony from now on if he is still rolling with that guild.
To me, the solution seems to be to have variable difficulties in the mobs, and I cannot see why this is not done more often.
Almost every MMO has some type of "Elite" mob. These are usually distinguishble from other mobs. This system could be elaborated upon to provide several degrees/types of difficulty.
This is one of my pet peeves with MMOs - elites. It would be fantastic if elite mobs had degrees of difficulty in their behaviour, but often they're as simple-minded as regular mobs but with 5x hp and damage so you need 5x players to face them. It's like artificial difficulty scaling.
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LalliMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
To me, the solution seems to be to have variable difficulties in the mobs, and I cannot see why this is not done more often.
Almost every MMO has some type of "Elite" mob. These are usually distinguishble from other mobs. This system could be elaborated upon to provide several degrees/types of difficulty.
This is one of my pet peeves with MMOs - elites. It would be fantastic if elite mobs had degrees of difficulty in their behaviour, but often they're as simple-minded as regular mobs but with 5x hp and damage so you need 5x players to face them. It's like artificial difficulty scaling.
I agree. Different mechanics and such would be cool. Almost like a mini world boss type idea.
To me, the solution seems to be to have variable difficulties in the mobs, and I cannot see why this is not done more often.
Almost every MMO has some type of "Elite" mob. These are usually distinguishble from other mobs. This system could be elaborated upon to provide several degrees/types of difficulty.
This is one of my pet peeves with MMOs - elites. It would be fantastic if elite mobs had degrees of difficulty in their behaviour, but often they're as simple-minded as regular mobs but with 5x hp and damage so you need 5x players to face them. It's like artificial difficulty scaling.
I agree. Different mechanics and such would be cool. Almost like a mini world boss type idea.
In the same way solo group content should have it's base population and boss type encounters, group content should have it's base type population and boss type encounters.
I've never played an MMO that didn't have the occasional boss thrown in with the basic base population.
I mean, I totally agree that leveling content should have it's bosses and mini-bosses (both group and solo), but it should also have it's base population.
And all the elite tag is in most games is a way to tell that the mob is designed for a group of players, rather than a single player. It is there so solo players don't go off killing the level 33 elite mob as a level 33 character, thinking they should be able to kill it because it is the same level as them.
Elite and boss are different things, and need to be kept apart as different things.
well one of the problems for leveling challenge is that some classes are really good for leveling like hunters with pets and sometimes healers have a really hard time leveling. Do not know if you play the same class over and over again but was leveling my third hunter and well the process was mechanical and tediious.
Plus even in games were the floor is really high from the ceiling I can usually kill mobs 5 to 10 levels higher than myself have done up to 20 and 30 levels. i can always go to zones that are designed for one tier higher.
Cannot expect the company to buff the entire world just because of that. So to start off hunters really good at leveling add some skill to that and well I found the process to be mechanical and more about effeicency really no danger of me ever dying.
But let me Ask you ladies and gentlemen a question. One of the metrics used to measure difficulty is the amount of times that you die or wipes for dungeouns and raids. If people are wiping like 80 percent of the time then most likely needs to be toned down.
Now if you never die then really cannot be that challenging so about how many times so you think the average player should wipe while leveling. Maybe you are thinking well if they are good enough zero, But if it is zero then abviously not hard enough so....may sound weird to put it this way but a good metric none the less.
But let me Ask you ladies and gentlemen a question. One of the metrics used to measure difficulty is the amount of times that you die or wipes for dungeouns and raids. If people are wiping like 80 percent of the time then most likely needs to be toned down.
It doesn't need to be toned down if raids and dungeons are meant to be difficult and/or considered a pinnacle of player achievement, which they generally are.
Bringing it back to the thread topic, if we are talking about dungeons/raids below max level that people do during their levelling, I think making them difficult (low success rate) is a great way to challenge veterans (and give them great xp) while also providing a content option for less skilled players to revisit a few levels later when it's easier for them.
I don't know what games did you play and I never played a MMO where leveling is easy and making leveling hard would put players off the game and make it boring not to mention it would bend players backs and waste their time more than average leveling.
Well was talking about the open world and leveling dungeouns original post was about leveling process being more challenging for veteran players.
But one idea that is far fetched is having servers for veteran players were everything is harder thing is might get tired of that so....
I think the norm where the game doesn't really start until you hit max level needs to be done away with. I rather enjoy the journey to max level so if the journey to max is not engaging, very short and really has no substance then the game isn't really worth the time to play. If a developer puts very little effort into their game for the first sub max levels then how much effort do you think they put in to the game for max level? I think having a fun and rewarding leveling experience is probably key if you want to make the leveling process long. I think it was said it should take ~45 days to reach max and that's a decent amount of time for an average player. Probably will be <30 for someone that can dedicate even more time.
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LalliMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think the norm where the game doesn't really start until you hit max level needs to be done away with. I rather enjoy the journey to max level so if the journey to max is not engaging, very short and really has no substance then the game isn't really worth the time to play. If a developer puts very little effort into their game for the first sub max levels then how much effort do you think they put in to the game for max level? I think having a fun and rewarding leveling experience is probably key if you want to make the leveling process long. I think it was said it should take ~45 days to reach max and that's a decent amount of time for an average player. Probably will be <30 for someone that can dedicate even more time.
Has anyone got any ideas on how to make leveling engaging for veteran players? Or is it just something we have to put up with?
I like the idea of carryover benefits, but these can quickly becoming unbalancing.
I like the idea of unique play through paths, but without something like SpatialOS driving, the complexity would be, I think, unmanageable.
I continue to be nonplussed that leveling remains such a cornerstone of mechanics. I think they are stuck with it until they find a way to make "death and restart" palatable (hard sell, in a domain that chose MTX).
The way this veteran keeps games engaging for herself is to deliberately avoid whatever rail has been placed.
I rarely alt, mostly because few games make the idea of replay attractive. What times I have done so have been directly related to unique paths by class or race/class combination (i.e., access to more story or a different take on the story I first experienced).
I have never replayed for mechanics. Ever.
The only players I know that have rolled an alt specifically for mechanics are top end raiders - and even then it is only because their friends need someone with a specific mechanic, and they are in a good position to be able to provide that mechanic on an alt.
I like the idea of a distributed computing network for hosting an MMO, in theory, but I'd stay away from SparialOS myself. As far as I know they have had three games heavily based on it cancelled so far, and none released.
I'm not sure how switching leveling with a "death and restart" mechanic would work, the two things are put in games or not put in games for different reasons. I also have no idea what relation either of those two have to MTX - and in fact I could give you the name of a game that contains all three of these things, if you'd care to expand on your reasoning here in return.
I think this is almost impossible to do unless you make a stand across the board and do away with fetch quests. Story driven quests are much better imo. ESO did a great job with this, it's just ALL those loading screens...ugh...immersion killer for me.
The only way to maybe do this is have an option when you take the quest is to set the difficulty mode of the quest, but then it's going to be iffy.
I would much rather go on a quest and have to read something that has knowledge and you would need that knowledge in order to go into the next part of the quest. Where the next part of the quest chain gives you two options to choose....IF you read the thing you were supposed to read you would know where to go. If not...well it's still some xp for going on a dead end.
I like the idea of a distributed computing network for hosting an MMO, in theory, but I'd stay away from SparialOS myself. As far as I know they have had three games heavily based on it cancelled so far, and none released.
I don't see anything about any released game there. All I see is integration in to UE4.
However, since Intrepid have spent years working on their network code - and designing the game around it - attempting to switch to use it would scrap all of that work that has been done, require a redesign of the game engine to function with distributed computing, and all up would delay Ashes by at least a year in order to make use of a technology that is unproven in this area.
My point that 3 games based on it have been cancelled and non released still stands, regardless of whether is is now integrated in to a game engine or not.
I'm not sure how switching leveling with a "death and restart" mechanic would work, the two things are put in games or not put in games for different reasons. I also have no idea what relation either of those two have to MTX - and in fact I could give you the name of a game that contains all three of these things, if you'd care to expand on your reasoning here in return.
I'm not sure what you're attempting to argue in this paragraph.
I am pointing out that the three things you have mentioned in the paragraph I quoted are in no way inherently connected to each other. You claimed that you believe MMO's are stuck with leveling being a cornerstone mechanic until they can make "death and restart" palatable, which you then backed up by saying you thought that would be "a hard sell in a domain that chose MTX".
What I was attempting to do in the paragraph you quoted - especially in the part where I said I could give you the name of a game that contains all three of these things, if you'd care to expand on your reasoning here in return - was to point out to you that there are games with all three of those things, and to encourage you to expand on your reasoning as to why you think MMO's are stuck with leveling as a cornerstone mechanic until they can make "death and restart" palatable, and also why you think that would be "a hard sell in a domain that chose MTX".
Honestly, since that is literally exactly what I said, I didnt thing it wasnall that hard to understand.
You aren't interested in understanding this perspective
Actually, I am.
I specifically asked you to expand on it, yet you have refused.
This makes me wonder if even you think your perspective is valid. You absolutely have no intention of defending it, that much is obvious.
Either way, I will ask it again.
I'll make it easier for you, I'll drop one of the three systems you seem to think are all connected.
So that leaves the question as - what makes you think that in an MMO setting, the advent of "death and restart" is in any way connected to using levels as a core mechanic?
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PlateauMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
And then there is Secret World with the most horrid combat, but damned that story and questing.
I think an actually story/-ies that guide you through the levels is all it needs to keep you engaged and happy.
Look at DnD, people don't play once a week for 4 years to finally reach "max level end content" with the coolest spells in the most difficult situations.
They play for the story that is created with them, the company and having fun together. They could just start at 20 every time, nothing holds them back and some certainly do for various reasons like a different kind of adventure that just needs that kind of character right now, but most will start over for a new campaign and just level up through adventures again.
That's probably the secret sauce, having actual adventures that take a while, not just a "hey we have a gnoll problem, kill me 20 and get some coins". I don't think it needs to be harder or challenging on a skill level, but I definitely wouldn't say no to an actual narrative.
WoW is a bad example for me personally. Retrospectively I might be able to say it was boring to level up there, I'm not sure I'm the right person to talk about that, but at the time I was just to entranced with the world. I loved the Warcraft games, I read so much lore about it and finally diving into that world for myself carried me probably through the whole of classic by itself.
"I know that place!" "I know that person" "Oh that's what happened" "omg this looks so much cooler here"
I definitely didn't notice that it might have been a slow slog back then aside from a very few famous quests like getting 10 troll ears and 1 hour later you had 5 of them. To me it felt like it all fit together. I always had quests to do and points to go next too. Maybe I was put into an illusion of always being busy. I'm not sure.
I do have to say tho, at least retrospectively I am noticing and very much dislike tuning down the leveling experience a lot more than being busy leveling up slowly.
Vindictus and Tera are the two sore points for me in that regard. I played them both on and off when they were fresh for quite a long time. I revisited them both years later and felt that both feel like a joke now and misrepresents the game. I actually couldn't find it in me to keep going and level through it all. It felt so cheap and even tho the leveling pace was alot faster I felt discouraged and never reached max level again.
That's me personally, I didn't just revisit the game for nostalgias sake, I actually wanted to introduce people to them and in both cases none of them couldn't get into it at all just like me.
I guess the best I can tell from that is that leveling should introduce you to what kind of experience awaits you later on. If you already feel bored now, it will feel like even more of a waste of time later on.
I could literally slog through days of permaleveling Tera as a mystic to get server first. As a healer, solo through some long ass boring grind sessions at a time without quests cause there was a weird void of 2-3 levels that had no quests whatsoever.
None of us could keep our attention on the easy variation of it for just 2 hours while we have each other to chat with.
I can be a life fulfilling dream. - Zekece
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
"Make the levelling too hard and you'll drive away newer players and the playerbase will dry up."
I've been playing MMOs since EQ and I've seen no evidence of this. Both new and vet players quit when they aren't challenged. Few quit due to being too hard, no matter how much a vocal minority might whine on the forums to the contrary.
This is a video about Lord of the Rings MMO. Talks about a feature that is basically a difficulty setting for the Open world. Skip to 4:56 seconds that is part were it talks about adventure mode. Think it is pretty cool.
If I read it correctly few months ago, there will be different behaviors for mobs present in the game. Some may stalk you and some will ambush you. I think that adds an extra layer of being careful when you are traversing the world.
Events will help with that too. Especially the ones that trigger suddenly and without warning. Open world pvp is a thing too, so that will keep you on your toes at all times.
I dont think that this will be a type of game you want to play alone nor that will be easy for veteran players.
Maybe it will be in the first 10 levels, but then it will turn into full on Stranglethorn Vale on steroids.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited January 27
I do not remember this well but the analogy is more important than the example, there was an episode of Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares whereby he reviewed to improve an Italian Restaurant in the countryside of the UK.
The owner wanted to be authentic by doing all Italian foods only. Ramsay stated that that was all good and nice but not all groups that will come to the restaurant will want Italian only and to be successful the menu still required some basics, standard, common non-Italian food. Standard basic UK food. This was so that there was choice for those that did not like Italian.. suggesting such things like the minority in groups that did not like Italian may influence the majority not to come and that there was a large portion of local community that just wanted to come because the restaurant is local and convenient and join friends for dinner, rather than being an elite Italian.
In that sense, I strongly believe that Ashes does need some core common elements that satisfy the regular mmo player to maintain the "bread and butter" range of subscriptions and the sustainability.
but i MUST ASK !!!!!! : how exactly is "levelling" supposed not to be interesting or exciting for Everyone involved ?
I try reading through all of the Opening-Comment and now i feel like a complete Idiot. Am i really THAT stupid ?? And ignorant ??
How can levelling NOT be a Fun-Experience ? Please someone tell me.
I am aware if some of You have done this SEVERA (endless ?) feeling of times, it is just a grind at it feels not good anymore. But there are still mechanics and limits in which "levelling" should be good.
They shouldn't be making it easy for newbies is my main concern. This likely won't be someone's first MMORPG because it is monthly credit card based, unless your friend drags you into it. At that point the veteran friend and your guild should be teaching new players tips and tricks. If players want to be lazy and not use their skills, then reality will hit like it should and they will be forced to figure it out and try harder.
I'm not thrilled with it only taking 45 days to hit max, unless that is 24hrs x 45days. Leveling needs to take longer. Don't like grind, find a casual MMO. That's what MMORPGs are. How can the devs be expected to spend 7 yrs average on a MMORPG that can be beaten in a month or 2? What good is the sub if you are going to not retain half your players a few months from now? I can remember multiple days at Beast Farm in L2, 5 hours each day, trying to get certain recipe drops (S80 i think?). To think that that small experience will have been 4%+ of the time to level to max in AoC is disappointing (assuming 5/hrs day x 45 days = max level). I played L2 for almost a decade total w/private servers. From C2 to High Five, there were very few max level players if any, legit. The reason I played so long was that I wasn't max level, nobody was, and we were all still working to unlock new skills. And trust me people would know when you leveled up when you pop Mirage or Vortex Slug on them.
Edit: On the body of the post, you need to have many different areas with different mobs, increasing in number as the difficulty to level increases. Different areas also as in play styles - solo-duo, polearm/aoe party, group, hardcore group, ranged etc. Doing the same thing for hours on end will get boring regardless after a few weeks. It is on the players to break up the grind. This is the beauty of clans, clan wars, events, nodes, caravans - there will be some days you log into a clan dispute pvp and don't even get around to xping that day. Clan events/node leveling/clan caravan is another thing that could eat half or more of your daily play time. Crafting, gathering, making money, your home... If you enjoy everything it should be easy to break up the grind.
They shouldn't be making it easy for newbies is my main concern. This likely won't be someone's first MMORPG because it is monthly credit card based, unless your friend drags you into it. At that point the veteran friend and your guild should be teaching new players tips and tricks. If players want to be lazy and not use their skills, then reality will hit like it should and they will be forced to figure it out and try harder.
Agree with this. I like an mmo where you can die at younger levels rather than your first time at level 40. I loved the original everquest for that. 14 in highpass keep was rough.
Comments
If a player leveling a Fighter/Fighter get some strong abilities/passives, one new at lvs: 56 59 64 68 69 70, that means that this veteran needs to incorporate these new strong, class defining abilities in their PvP or PvE toolkit.
Some players will make better use of them by understanding how to make the older abilities work around the new.
Then every 6 months or year new Chapters should be released at a cost. A bit of lore. 1 epic boss, 3-4 new hunting zones.
Max lv becomes 76 and new armor sets can be equiped at 72.
The least popular abilities of lv 40-50 should become two-in-on and a new ability at 74 and a new passive at 75.
It should take about 4 months to get from 70 to 76.
Then a new Chapter from IS.
These keep the veteran players interested.
The new abilities. The changes to the classes. The new hunting zones. The new armors and weapons and their theme.
Every mmorpg out there right now is: get to lv 60 (max lv) in 5 days. Oh boy this is where the end game starts!!!
In 5 days a player has unlocked all of a classes abilities and killed noob mobs.
And then they proceed to enchant their gear up to +16 then +EXTRA +MEGA +TITAN. That is boring.
No wonder people are altoholics in mmorpgs now and all they do is farm cosmetics for their firemage character, for their bard character, for their rogue character, for their fisher character, for their real estate character, for their chiropractor character.
Not because of his youtube channel, but because it took that player 6 months on the same toon and he was one of the first skilled high lv players getting involved in the guild sieges and wars out in the open, making a name for himself and his guild.
Oh now he is playing a Summoner. They are not OP in this new Chapter but oh well, I guess the guy likes archers and simmoners. He will be known as LittlePony from now on if he is still rolling with that guild.
This is one of my pet peeves with MMOs - elites. It would be fantastic if elite mobs had degrees of difficulty in their behaviour, but often they're as simple-minded as regular mobs but with 5x hp and damage so you need 5x players to face them. It's like artificial difficulty scaling.
I agree. Different mechanics and such would be cool. Almost like a mini world boss type idea.
I've never played an MMO that didn't have the occasional boss thrown in with the basic base population.
I mean, I totally agree that leveling content should have it's bosses and mini-bosses (both group and solo), but it should also have it's base population.
And all the elite tag is in most games is a way to tell that the mob is designed for a group of players, rather than a single player. It is there so solo players don't go off killing the level 33 elite mob as a level 33 character, thinking they should be able to kill it because it is the same level as them.
Elite and boss are different things, and need to be kept apart as different things.
Plus even in games were the floor is really high from the ceiling I can usually kill mobs 5 to 10 levels higher than myself have done up to 20 and 30 levels. i can always go to zones that are designed for one tier higher.
Cannot expect the company to buff the entire world just because of that. So to start off hunters really good at leveling add some skill to that and well I found the process to be mechanical and more about effeicency really no danger of me ever dying.
But let me Ask you ladies and gentlemen a question. One of the metrics used to measure difficulty is the amount of times that you die or wipes for dungeouns and raids. If people are wiping like 80 percent of the time then most likely needs to be toned down.
Now if you never die then really cannot be that challenging so about how many times so you think the average player should wipe while leveling. Maybe you are thinking well if they are good enough zero, But if it is zero then abviously not hard enough so....may sound weird to put it this way but a good metric none the less.
If you are talking solo content of any form, I agree.
If you are talking about an end of content cycle raid boss encounter, I disagree - and would in fact consider that to be very low.
It doesn't need to be toned down if raids and dungeons are meant to be difficult and/or considered a pinnacle of player achievement, which they generally are.
Bringing it back to the thread topic, if we are talking about dungeons/raids below max level that people do during their levelling, I think making them difficult (low success rate) is a great way to challenge veterans (and give them great xp) while also providing a content option for less skilled players to revisit a few levels later when it's easier for them.
But one idea that is far fetched is having servers for veteran players were everything is harder thing is might get tired of that so....
I agree 1000% (as a former Runescape player lol)
The only players I know that have rolled an alt specifically for mechanics are top end raiders - and even then it is only because their friends need someone with a specific mechanic, and they are in a good position to be able to provide that mechanic on an alt.
I like the idea of a distributed computing network for hosting an MMO, in theory, but I'd stay away from SparialOS myself. As far as I know they have had three games heavily based on it cancelled so far, and none released.
I'm not sure how switching leveling with a "death and restart" mechanic would work, the two things are put in games or not put in games for different reasons. I also have no idea what relation either of those two have to MTX - and in fact I could give you the name of a game that contains all three of these things, if you'd care to expand on your reasoning here in return.
The only way to maybe do this is have an option when you take the quest is to set the difficulty mode of the quest, but then it's going to be iffy.
I would much rather go on a quest and have to read something that has knowledge and you would need that knowledge in order to go into the next part of the quest. Where the next part of the quest chain gives you two options to choose....IF you read the thing you were supposed to read you would know where to go. If not...well it's still some xp for going on a dead end.
However, since Intrepid have spent years working on their network code - and designing the game around it - attempting to switch to use it would scrap all of that work that has been done, require a redesign of the game engine to function with distributed computing, and all up would delay Ashes by at least a year in order to make use of a technology that is unproven in this area.
My point that 3 games based on it have been cancelled and non released still stands, regardless of whether is is now integrated in to a game engine or not. I am pointing out that the three things you have mentioned in the paragraph I quoted are in no way inherently connected to each other. You claimed that you believe MMO's are stuck with leveling being a cornerstone mechanic until they can make "death and restart" palatable, which you then backed up by saying you thought that would be "a hard sell in a domain that chose MTX".
What I was attempting to do in the paragraph you quoted - especially in the part where I said I could give you the name of a game that contains all three of these things, if you'd care to expand on your reasoning here in return - was to point out to you that there are games with all three of those things, and to encourage you to expand on your reasoning as to why you think MMO's are stuck with leveling as a cornerstone mechanic until they can make "death and restart" palatable, and also why you think that would be "a hard sell in a domain that chose MTX".
Honestly, since that is literally exactly what I said, I didnt thing it wasnall that hard to understand.
I specifically asked you to expand on it, yet you have refused.
This makes me wonder if even you think your perspective is valid. You absolutely have no intention of defending it, that much is obvious.
Either way, I will ask it again.
I'll make it easier for you, I'll drop one of the three systems you seem to think are all connected.
So that leaves the question as - what makes you think that in an MMO setting, the advent of "death and restart" is in any way connected to using levels as a core mechanic?
I think an actually story/-ies that guide you through the levels is all it needs to keep you engaged and happy.
Look at DnD, people don't play once a week for 4 years to finally reach "max level end content" with the coolest spells in the most difficult situations.
They play for the story that is created with them, the company and having fun together. They could just start at 20 every time, nothing holds them back and some certainly do for various reasons like a different kind of adventure that just needs that kind of character right now, but most will start over for a new campaign and just level up through adventures again.
That's probably the secret sauce, having actual adventures that take a while, not just a "hey we have a gnoll problem, kill me 20 and get some coins". I don't think it needs to be harder or challenging on a skill level, but I definitely wouldn't say no to an actual narrative.
WoW is a bad example for me personally. Retrospectively I might be able to say it was boring to level up there, I'm not sure I'm the right person to talk about that, but at the time I was just to entranced with the world. I loved the Warcraft games, I read so much lore about it and finally diving into that world for myself carried me probably through the whole of classic by itself.
"I know that place!" "I know that person" "Oh that's what happened" "omg this looks so much cooler here"
I definitely didn't notice that it might have been a slow slog back then aside from a very few famous quests like getting 10 troll ears and 1 hour later you had 5 of them. To me it felt like it all fit together. I always had quests to do and points to go next too. Maybe I was put into an illusion of always being busy. I'm not sure.
I do have to say tho, at least retrospectively I am noticing and very much dislike tuning down the leveling experience a lot more than being busy leveling up slowly.
Vindictus and Tera are the two sore points for me in that regard. I played them both on and off when they were fresh for quite a long time. I revisited them both years later and felt that both feel like a joke now and misrepresents the game. I actually couldn't find it in me to keep going and level through it all. It felt so cheap and even tho the leveling pace was alot faster I felt discouraged and never reached max level again.
That's me personally, I didn't just revisit the game for nostalgias sake, I actually wanted to introduce people to them and in both cases none of them couldn't get into it at all just like me.
I guess the best I can tell from that is that leveling should introduce you to what kind of experience awaits you later on. If you already feel bored now, it will feel like even more of a waste of time later on.
I could literally slog through days of permaleveling Tera as a mystic to get server first. As a healer, solo through some long ass boring grind sessions at a time without quests cause there was a weird void of 2-3 levels that had no quests whatsoever.
None of us could keep our attention on the easy variation of it for just 2 hours while we have each other to chat with.
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
I've been playing MMOs since EQ and I've seen no evidence of this. Both new and vet players quit when they aren't challenged. Few quit due to being too hard, no matter how much a vocal minority might whine on the forums to the contrary.
This is a video about Lord of the Rings MMO. Talks about a feature that is basically a difficulty setting for the Open world. Skip to 4:56 seconds that is part were it talks about adventure mode. Think it is pretty cool.
Since grinding levels will ultimately be the same no matter the go around, then at least do so in new areas, with new quests, lore, mobs, etc
Events will help with that too. Especially the ones that trigger suddenly and without warning. Open world pvp is a thing too, so that will keep you on your toes at all times.
I dont think that this will be a type of game you want to play alone nor that will be easy for veteran players.
Maybe it will be in the first 10 levels, but then it will turn into full on Stranglethorn Vale on steroids.
The owner wanted to be authentic by doing all Italian foods only. Ramsay stated that that was all good and nice but not all groups that will come to the restaurant will want Italian only and to be successful the menu still required some basics, standard, common non-Italian food. Standard basic UK food. This was so that there was choice for those that did not like Italian.. suggesting such things like the minority in groups that did not like Italian may influence the majority not to come and that there was a large portion of local community that just wanted to come because the restaurant is local and convenient and join friends for dinner, rather than being an elite Italian.
In that sense, I strongly believe that Ashes does need some core common elements that satisfy the regular mmo player to maintain the "bread and butter" range of subscriptions and the sustainability.
but i MUST ASK !!!!!! : how exactly is "levelling" supposed not to be interesting or exciting for Everyone involved ?
I try reading through all of the Opening-Comment and now i feel like a complete Idiot. Am i really THAT stupid ?? And ignorant ??
How can levelling NOT be a Fun-Experience ? Please someone tell me.
I am aware if some of You have done this SEVERA (endless ?) feeling of times, it is just a grind at it feels not good anymore. But there are still mechanics and limits in which "levelling" should be good.
I'm not thrilled with it only taking 45 days to hit max, unless that is 24hrs x 45days. Leveling needs to take longer. Don't like grind, find a casual MMO. That's what MMORPGs are. How can the devs be expected to spend 7 yrs average on a MMORPG that can be beaten in a month or 2? What good is the sub if you are going to not retain half your players a few months from now? I can remember multiple days at Beast Farm in L2, 5 hours each day, trying to get certain recipe drops (S80 i think?). To think that that small experience will have been 4%+ of the time to level to max in AoC is disappointing (assuming 5/hrs day x 45 days = max level). I played L2 for almost a decade total w/private servers. From C2 to High Five, there were very few max level players if any, legit. The reason I played so long was that I wasn't max level, nobody was, and we were all still working to unlock new skills. And trust me people would know when you leveled up when you pop Mirage or Vortex Slug on them.
Edit: On the body of the post, you need to have many different areas with different mobs, increasing in number as the difficulty to level increases. Different areas also as in play styles - solo-duo, polearm/aoe party, group, hardcore group, ranged etc. Doing the same thing for hours on end will get boring regardless after a few weeks. It is on the players to break up the grind. This is the beauty of clans, clan wars, events, nodes, caravans - there will be some days you log into a clan dispute pvp and don't even get around to xping that day. Clan events/node leveling/clan caravan is another thing that could eat half or more of your daily play time. Crafting, gathering, making money, your home... If you enjoy everything it should be easy to break up the grind.
Agree with this. I like an mmo where you can die at younger levels rather than your first time at level 40. I loved the original everquest for that. 14 in highpass keep was rough.