Meters, why say no?

Now hear me out before you instantly start replying that i'm a toxic elitist who just wants to call others bad. This is an mmorpg. The dungeons are attuned for 8 players, and raids can go up to 40 players. You're saying that meters are toxic and shouldn't be desired at all. But how are you supposed to find the players that could be better helped to learn their class? Example: You're in a 40 man raid that your guild has been up against for about 3-4 weeks and you cant get any progress done on it. Something is wrong, and you cant figure it out. Lets say suddenly you had meters, and you can now see that a handful of your 40 players needed some guidance with their class. With no meters, this would be impossible to figure out. Without meters we're expected to bash our head against a brick wall for god knows how long until people start leaving or quitting the progression due to frustration. I believe the decision to not include meters because it "promotes a toxic elitist behavior" is unjustified and shouldn't be left to the decision of just a couple people. I find that meters can help improve the game by helping your group improve and grow together, which will in return help people enjoy the game to its fullest. If you don't add meters to the game itself, please consider making addons or plugins for meters a non-bannable offense at the very least.

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Noaani

BlackBrony wrote: »

I don't know.
I can't stop thinking about this every time I hear people asking for combat tracker:

There is a stagering amount of redundant information on that screen.

That is a player choice, not a consequence of combat trackers.

I've said it before, but there is no inherent need to have anything display on screen while running a combat tracker.

Noaani

Ventharien wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

It isn't a case of "my DPS meter said this" for people when they are acting toxic like that, it is a case of "I think your class sucks". Nothing more, nothing less.

You can't make that assumption.

It isn't an assumption.

Archeage - the game with the lowest usage of combat trackers out of any game I have played, was the most excluding and most toxic.

The game had combat trackers available for it, but most players were not aware of this fact.

The game basically had a list of viable builds, and you effectively had to be one of those builds if you were in an active guild. Most of the builds considered to be for DPS were decidedly average when actually objectively tested against other builds. Even in community baed content (CR, GR, MM, Halcy) you would be laughed at and booted if more too many players came along.

This is why I spent most of my time as a pirate in that game. I could be what ever build I wanted, as there was no one to tell me otherwise. The build I opted for was a DPS/CC hybrid that was so poorly understood people on these forums have called it a tank class in the past. I could happily take on any two of the cool kids builds at the same time, even if they had higher gear score.

What I'm saying is that my statement, the one you called an assumption, is not an assumption at all. Any player that has not played Archeage or BDO has not played a game where combat don't have a major influence, but thise that have played thise games know perfectly well that toxicity is not a result of said trackers, as that toxicity still exists when trackers do not, or when their use is marginalized.

People making claims about toxicity in a game without combat trackers that has not played either of those games for a reasonable amount of time are making assumptions, not me.

Azryil

BlackBrony wrote: »

I don't know.
I can't stop thinking about this every time I hear people asking for combat tracker:

That's an unnecessarily cluttered UI, but the DPS meter is only a very small part of it off to one side.

Ventharien

Yeah it's a players choice if they want to remove themselves from the gameplay that much. Though i appreciate the sentiment. Started with Dps meters, and threat meters, cooldown displays, dbm, and actual rotation lightup queues came not far behind.

Damokles

BlackBrony wrote: »

I don't know.
I can't stop thinking about this every time I hear people asking for combat tracker:

This is more fitting for the current times:

dims?resize=1200%2C630&crop=1200%2C630%2C0%2C0&quality=80&image_uri=https%3A%2F%2Fs.yimg.com%2Fuu%2Fapi%2Fres%2F1.2%2FASk6flS9gBDZsYy2iKpL7A--%7EB%2FaD0zNjM7dz01ODA7YXBwaWQ9eXRhY2h5b24-%2Fhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.blogcdn.com%2Fwow.joystiq.com%2Fmedia%2F2011%2F06%2Famaus-ui-raid2title.jpg&client=amp-blogside-v2&signature=7a08941bb197d8e347c3e41c1dbe4b04cae06458

mcstackerson

noaani wrote: »

Ventharien wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

It isn't a case of "my DPS meter said this" for people when they are acting toxic like that, it is a case of "I think your class sucks". Nothing more, nothing less.

You can't make that assumption.

It isn't an assumption.

Archeage - the game with the lowest usage of combat trackers out of any game I have played, was the most excluding and most toxic.

The game had combat trackers available for it, but most players were not aware of this fact.

The game basically had a list of viable builds, and you effectively had to be one of those builds if you were in an active guild. Most of the builds considered to be for DPS were decidedly average when actually objectively tested against other builds. Even in community baed content (CR, GR, MM, Halcy) you would be laughed at and booted if more too many players came along.

This is why I spent most of my time as a pirate in that game. I could be what ever build I wanted, as there was no one to tell me otherwise. The build I opted for was a DPS/CC hybrid that was so poorly understood people on these forums have called it a tank class in the past. I could happily take on any two of the cool kids builds at the same time, even if they had higher gear score.

What I'm saying is that my statement, the one you called an assumption, is not an assumption at all. Any player that has not played Archeage or BDO has not played a game where combat don't have a major influence, but thise that have played thise games know perfectly well that toxicity is not a result of said trackers, as that toxicity still exists when trackers do not, or when their use is marginalized.

People making claims about toxicity in a game without combat trackers that has not played either of those games for a reasonable amount of time are making assumptions, not me.

Small scale and large group are different.

Was it poorly understood or was it not capable of filling a role in a group?

Sounds like you had a build for an initiator but weren't tanky so you wouldn't be able to fill that role in a group as you would just get bursted down as soon as you went in. You also probably didn't have as many dps skills to be effective in a dps role either.

There were plenty of builds like this in AA that performed well or even better than the meta in small scale but didn't have a good function in group because they weren't as focused in a role. BDO has a similar issue where you have classes that aren't good at serving the roles a group needs.

I agree that trackers aren't the only thing that causes this kind of toxicity but do think they will add more to it as it gives you a precise measuring tool. Yes, in AA, there were builds in were considered meta but in those builds, you had some wiggle room as dps output of the individual builds wasn't 100% clear but if we had those tools, you would see even fewer builds be considered viable.

Ventharien

noaani wrote: »

It isn't an assumption.

Archeage - the game with the lowest usage of combat trackers out of any game I have played, was the most excluding and most toxic.

The game had combat trackers available for it, but most players were not aware of this fact.

The game basically had a list of viable builds, and you effectively had to be one of those builds if you were in an active guild. Most of the builds considered to be for DPS were decidedly average when actually objectively tested against other builds. Even in community baed content (CR, GR, MM, Halcy) you would be laughed at and booted if more too many players came along.

This is why I spent most of my time as a pirate in that game. I could be what ever build I wanted, as there was no one to tell me otherwise. The build I opted for was a DPS/CC hybrid that was so poorly understood people on these forums have called it a tank class in the past. I could happily take on any two of the cool kids builds at the same time, even if they had higher gear score.

What I'm saying is that my statement, the one you called an assumption, is not an assumption at all. Any player that has not played Archeage or BDO has not played a game where combat don't have a major influence, but thise that have played thise games know perfectly well that toxicity is not a result of said trackers, as that toxicity still exists when trackers do not, or when their use is marginalized.

People making claims about toxicity in a game without combat trackers that has not played either of those games for a reasonable amount of time are making assumptions, not me.

Again, assumptions. Many of the people in these forums came from archeage, hell, it's one of the things that led Steven to start this whole project. I also got sick of the darkrunner and friends, and purposely made a ridiculously tanky spec that me and my buddy went around with for the sole purpose of slapping those guys down when they tried to jump us to steal packs or just kill. And i don't know from what set of information you assume not many people knew about meters in Archeage, all of my acquaintances knew various ways to use or get there hands on meters, like text readers, though many didn't take the trouble once Trion moved away from them. Since again, more people will utilize systems if they are readily available and easy to setup/use without consequence. The more hurdles you add, the less people will bother.
Archeage just had a poor class system that they let get out of control.

Nagash

Damokles wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

I don't know.
I can't stop thinking about this every time I hear people asking for combat tracker:

This is more fitting for the current times:

A clean UI is a happy UI

Noaani

mcstackerson wrote: »

Was it poorly understood or was it not capable of filling a role in a group?

Poorly understood.

Well, completely not understood.

I wasn't useful as an initiator at all (more due to mobility than survivability, though I absolutely would want more survivability if that was the role I found myself in), but when I did eventually leave being a pirate and had the GS to tell people to piss off about complaining about my class, I proved to be far more useful as a pure ranged DPS than any of the classes that were generally considered the best at that, and also had the CC available to delay 5 or 6 players at the same time should there be a breakthrough or a flank, along with survivability that would be considered somewhere between a DPS and a tank.

The problem with AA's class system is that it was inherently not balanced. People thought they had a good idea of how the system worked, but they only ever looked at the situation as if the game was actually balanced. As soon as you looked at the classes as being a purely random collection of abilities, almost gamebreaking combinations started to jump out at you.

This is why XL added Ancestral levels, things got a lot more balanced after that, though I'd left the game by that stage.

Your last paragraph is interesting. I actually spent a few weeks working through Daggerspell, parsing out various builds. The first thing I noticed was that the class was meddling at best in terms of DPS. I came across 15 different builds that were viable depending on what gear the player was using, and what situations the player found themselves in. I actually spent more time parsing out that class than I did the class I actually played. I do regret not posting what I had found, but I did have a general "F**K YOU" attitude to the community in that game at the time. However, I only ever really saw talk of three or four viable builds of Daggerspell - so in the one class that I actually did look in to, there turned out to be more viable options once all the data had been collected objectively.

But none of that alters the simple fact that toxicity against specific classes and builds existed in that game regardless of if people used a combat tracker or not - which is the point.

flameh0t

DaddySaucy wrote: »

Now hear me out before you instantly start replying that i'm a toxic elitist who just wants to call others bad. This is an mmorpg. The dungeons are attuned for 8 players, and raids can go up to 40 players. You're saying that meters are toxic and shouldn't be desired at all. But how are you supposed to find the players that could be better helped to learn their class? Example: You're in a 40 man raid that your guild has been up against for about 3-4 weeks and you cant get any progress done on it. Something is wrong, and you cant figure it out. Lets say suddenly you had meters, and you can now see that a handful of your 40 players needed some guidance with their class. With no meters, this would be impossible to figure out. Without meters we're expected to bash our head against a brick wall for god knows how long until people start leaving or quitting the progression due to frustration. I believe the decision to not include meters because it "promotes a toxic elitist behavior" is unjustified and shouldn't be left to the decision of just a couple people. I find that meters can help improve the game by helping your group improve and grow together, which will in return help people enjoy the game to its fullest. If you don't add meters to the game itself, please consider making addons or plugins for meters a non-bannable offense at the very least.

Haha lol

Literally the first time I've ever heard of someone using a DPS metre to "help a handful of players that need guidance with their class".

I can already see you hovering over the kick button.

Noaani

@flameh0t

You should read the three current threads on this topic.

Outside of WoW, combat trackers are used in constructive ways far more than in toxic ways.

As a raid leader and recruiter, I've used combat trackers to help literally hundreds of players over almost a half dozen games. I've also peraonally used them to point out no less than 20 bugs/oversights to developers of those games, all of which were then fixed.

I've kicked exactly one person from a raid or group in almost 20 years, and that wasn't because of something I needed a combat tracker to tell me.

Caeryl

So many people here don't even seem to realize that nearly all of the people they've grouped with across any multiplayer game has probably been using a combat tracker.

Micromegas

what I personally don't like about dps meter is that whenever I use it I don't feel like I am fighting bosses, rather I feel like I am competing with other players and that ruins an immersion for me

Noaani

Micromegas wrote: »

what I personally don't like about dps meter is that whenever I use it I don't feel like I am fighting bosses, rather I feel like I am competing with other players and that ruins an immersion for me

When I use it I am fighting the encounter. I don't usually even look at it until the end of the evening. The only exception to that is if something is going wrong when it shouldn't be. Then I'll try and figure it out.

I personlly think anyone using an overlay with their combat tracker is doing it wrong. But I also think they are welcome to use it wrong if they wish.

Azryil

flameh0t wrote: »

DaddySaucy wrote: »

Now hear me out before you instantly start replying that i'm a toxic elitist who just wants to call others bad. This is an mmorpg. The dungeons are attuned for 8 players, and raids can go up to 40 players. You're saying that meters are toxic and shouldn't be desired at all. But how are you supposed to find the players that could be better helped to learn their class? Example: You're in a 40 man raid that your guild has been up against for about 3-4 weeks and you cant get any progress done on it. Something is wrong, and you cant figure it out. Lets say suddenly you had meters, and you can now see that a handful of your 40 players needed some guidance with their class. With no meters, this would be impossible to figure out. Without meters we're expected to bash our head against a brick wall for god knows how long until people start leaving or quitting the progression due to frustration. I believe the decision to not include meters because it "promotes a toxic elitist behavior" is unjustified and shouldn't be left to the decision of just a couple people. I find that meters can help improve the game by helping your group improve and grow together, which will in return help people enjoy the game to its fullest. If you don't add meters to the game itself, please consider making addons or plugins for meters a non-bannable offense at the very least.

Haha lol

Literally the first time I've ever heard of someone using a DPS metre to "help a handful of players that need guidance with their class".

I can already see you hovering over the kick button.

That really isn't all that uncommon in my experience, at least in guild groups.

Corpier

Its been said before, it will be said again, meters are a tool. Its the person using them that is toxic or unable to infer the right information, not the instrument providing objective data.

Meters will exist, whether provided in game or by a 3rd party.

Personally, I think meters are a good thing. I never got into raiding in WoW, and have heard they have been used to toxic effect in that game. That doesn't mean they will be used for toxic reasons in Ashes, especially if Ashes doesn't have a toxic community.

However, I can only speak for my own experience and how I have used meters in the past. In my near decade of playing MMOs, most of which involved raiding and combat trackers/dps meters, I can count on one hand how many times I have been kicked or kicked another player due to information from a dps meter or combat tracker.

Usually the way I have seen them used is by guilds to find out who needs some 1 on 1 attention to help them improve. They have also been used to great effect within a raid to take stock if someone isn't meeting an objective. The information can be used to rearrange players tasks midraid so the one struggling instead does something they are more comfortable with and a more competent player handles the task the other was assigned but couldn't carry out.

Heck, in small group pve content I use dps meters. When I glance at a meter and see someone is struggling with their dps, my first reaction isn't to kick. Its gives me the information I need to break out my more expensive raid consumables or swap to another character that is more geared or I'm more practiced with to provide the extra edge needed to carry though dps checks that would have been failed otherwise.

Simply put, keep in mind that dps meters/combat trackers are a tool. For every toxic player that used that tool to be toxic, there are probably just as many other players that used that tool to help another player.

Ventharien

Azryil wrote: »

That really isn't all that uncommon in my experience, at least in guild groups.

I think that's another part of the difference of perspectives, most people against aren't referring to guild groups, where social dynamics and communication have already been established, but to Pugs, or when their play group is only large enough to act as mercenaries or fill ins to larger groups.

Undead Canuck

So how do you react when the healer has low dps? From what I have read here, dps meters are important. But what about the tank, the healer, the CC? Their jobs are not to have high dps. Why would you kick the healer that has kept everyone alive but barely scratched the enemy?
Or do you kick the healer because they had high dps when they shouldn't have.

flameh0t

Undead Canuck wrote: »

So how do you react when the healer has low dps? From what I have read here, dps meters are important. But what about the tank, the healer, the CC? Their jobs are not to have high dps. Why would you kick the healer that has kept everyone alive but barely scratched the enemy?
Or do you kick the healer because they had high dps when they shouldn't have.

Haha exactly.. DPS metres are pointless. It's a GAME. Only idiots care about the way someone else prefers to play the game. Just play it your own way and have fun, like games were intended. Not some idiotic competition where if your numbers aren't where someone else wants them, you get insulted.

If I found DPS metres to be of value, Id join the mathletes nerd competition instead.

Noaani

Undead Canuck wrote: »

So how do you react when the healer has low dps? From what I have read here, dps meters are important. But what about the tank, the healer, the CC? Their jobs are not to have high dps. Why would you kick the healer that has kept everyone alive but barely scratched the enemy?
Or do you kick the healer because they had high dps when they shouldn't have.

See, this is why it is more important to talk about combat trackers than DPS meters.

A combat tracker will tell you how is healing, and how much. If you have two healers in your group, and one is doing all the healing and some DPS/debuffing/what ever else healers do, and the other is doing nothing, then you know the group is pulling dead weight. Without a combat tracker, all you can do is look at the tank that is not dying and know that at least one of the healers is doing their job.

As to whether you kick the healer, that is 100% dependent on the groups leader. I wouldn't, but I also wouldn't group with that same healer again.

Any group leader in any game that looks at a combat tracker to find the DPS of a non-DPS class really won't be leading groups for very long in a game that forces you to find your own group members.

The important thing to note here is that the decision the group leader makes is completely removed from whether they have a combat tracker or not, almost all of the time. In the absence of objective data (which all a combat tracker does is provide objective data) players will make decisions based on subjective data. Subjective data has a habit of being factually incorrect though.

If a particular group leader was the kind of person that would kick someone from a group for poor DPS, it would surely be better that they kicked the player for actual low DPS rather than simply because they think the DPS might be low. I mean, a player that will kick someone from a group will do it regardless of which of these two things are happening - imo it is always better if it is based on objective data.

Ventharien wrote: »

Azryil wrote: »

That really isn't all that uncommon in my experience, at least in guild groups.

I think that's another part of the difference of perspectives, most people against aren't referring to guild groups, where social dynamics and communication have already been established, but to Pugs, or when their play group is only large enough to act as mercenaries or fill ins to larger groups.

I agree, and this is why my suggestion for one in Ashes has been based on the idea of restricting it to being used within the users guild.

flameh0t wrote: »

Undead Canuck wrote: »

So how do you react when the healer has low dps? From what I have read here, dps meters are important. But what about the tank, the healer, the CC? Their jobs are not to have high dps. Why would you kick the healer that has kept everyone alive but barely scratched the enemy?
Or do you kick the healer because they had high dps when they shouldn't have.

Haha exactly.. DPS metres are pointless. It's a GAME. Only idiots care about the way someone else prefers to play the game. Just play it your own way and have fun, like games were intended. Not some idiotic competition where if your numbers aren't where someone else wants them, you get insulted.

If I found DPS metres to be of value, Id join the mathletes nerd competition instead.

So, you're cool if I join your group as the healer, even if I am playing a build that doesn't have any heals?

Most games with the amount of class flexibility that Ashes have provide players playing classes that would be considered healers to not actually have any heals selected.

If you are fine with me playing the game the way I want to play the game, then it stands to reason that you are fine with me fulfilling the role of the only healer in your group, but with a build that has no heals - because that is how I want to play the game.

As soon as you join up to play with others, you are saying that it is ok for them to scrutinize the way you play - because at that point, the way you play directly effects the way they play.

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