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From what I'm projecting, the game will be more complex than originally thought.
If you watched the last video, Steven was hinting at trap locating inside a dungeon, so you can tell the D18 dice be there boih.
Now that's saying there some genius being dropped down there and this game gonna blow my mind....
yah dig?

flameh0t

perseus01 wrote: »

From what I'm projecting, the game will be more complex than originally thought.
If you watched the last video, Steven was hinting at trap locating inside a dungeon, so you can tell the D18 dice be there boih.
Now that's saying there some genius being dropped down there and this game gonna blow my mind....
yah dig?

Haha yeah, the Rogue has a "Spyglass" skill for trap detection, and mage has "Mages Detection light" some glowy orb that reveals magically hidden passages and explosive traps. Should be minttttt. Love finding hidden stuff haha

Ishka

The way I see AOC's class system is like woodworking, at first it will be rough & unbalanced. But the more time passes, the better it will become and eventually it will reach a level where everything comes into place. It will asks months of works from Intrepid after release to make it half decent and years to polish since the players will make it evolve.

Maybe a way to reduce this time for Intrepid to somehow choose carefully very skillful players in their classes during alpha/betas. And directly work with intrepid to try potential builds in advance and find potential overpowered builds/abilities before the regular players tumble upon it.

Some classes will be godlike from the very start and other will be low-tier until some dude randomly find the ultimate build that everyone ends up using and "break the meta".

But still, seeing how you can build your character and how it can change drastically the way you play. This a chance to make exotic builds and have a lot of fun at the same time.

In the end, I expect the class system to be mediocre at best at the release, but with time it can only be better. I think as players we will have the chance to send feedbacks to Intrepid and potentially being heard as long as it makes sense. But the class system is definitely not the game's downfall but a Gem that needs care and polishing to shine.

Plateau

Balrog21

@leonerdo yeah, I have faith in them, I just hope they listen to their player base during alpha and beta.
This for me is my last great hope for the genre.

arodicus

I don’t know if it will be as grand as you are imagining for the augments. The base skill is going to be the same. While it may add a different vfx based on what the augment does at the end of the day there are only a set number of skills per class. Especially with you think of the level cap being lv 50.

As for multiple metas steven has said before he doesn’t want the classes to be cookie cutter and of course while there may be 1 or 3 builds that are marginally better than others the game is going to depend on skill and talent. It will be possible for someone to solo an enemy meant for a group of 5-8 people with luck skill and determination

On the pvp front it was said before that the plans are to be mostly Rock Paper Scissors. PvP is expected to be on a grand scale so less balancing should need to take place. Not to say it won’t happen since there will be constant monitoring and plenty of feedback.

WizardTim

I just personally see the Augments as bringing any given class closer to a hybrid between two classes. There will be a LOT of manual tweaks done to allow this, every class combination might require a detailed walk through, but it's not even close to an impossible task.

Easiest method might be to focus on unique roles for each of the 8 classes, as someone else mentioned elsewhere, and than allow hybrids to be more or less equally efficient at BOTH roles as a straight archetype class, but allowing the pure classes (mage/mage, etc.) excel even further than the hybrids.

So if a Tank controls the battlefield, than a Tank/Tank would be far superior to a Mage/Tank, but a Mage/Tank would be as good as a Tank/Mage or a Rogue/Tank. With the only difference being how they control that battlefield. A Mage/Tank might use spells that control enemies as well as damage them, for example.

I don't know. This system sounds fun, and might offer endless possibilities to explore. Or it might just allow the players to pick 3 they like and screw the rest, though that seems to be a thing Steven absolutely won't allow.

I choose to have faith in Steven though, I like his attitude about this game, and his moral compass seems to be pretty strong and aimed in the right direction. It also sounds like he remains open minded enough to allow better decisions to be made when the ideas are offered.

Wong

Considering that IS stated that classes will be balanced for group content and not solo content, i don't see how a solo class balance would happen.
That is the intended design, for classes to have weaknesses both statistical and situational due to their nature, but both to only an extent.

Caeryl

mrsynth wrote: »

Considering that IS stated that classes will be balanced for group content and not solo content, i don't see how a solo class balance would happen.
That is the intended design, for classes to have weaknesses both statistical and situational due to their nature, but both to only an extent.

In solo content I do expect any class to be capable of completing it, at varying speeds and with varying approaches.

A tank approaching a solo quest intends to “outlive” rather than “kill”. More defensive.

A dps would approach a solo quest intending to “kill” rather than “outlive”. More offensive.

A healer imo approaches it as “outsustain and kill”. Mostly even mix of offense and depend.

To be clear in Ashes I expect ”solo content” to mean the early open world quests, racial quests, and social group quests. But at a point, not requiring at least two-role groups, or high amounts of skill from a solo player, would feel like a detriment for a game that wants to push the importance of alliances.

BlackBrony

I'm not sure if any of you are roleplayers, but Steven comes from playing Pathfinder and Dungeons and Dragons.
In those system you could create a level 1 character that basically become a god.
Pathfinder also has an enormous amount of theory crafting, aided by math and rules as written, leaving no room for interpretation.
I believe this is why Steven is against meters and also doesn't like cookie cutter builds. He knows there are several types of players who enjoy NOT picking the most efficient build.

You can go your way on a cooperative game like Pathfinder/DnD, but it's a LOT harder to do this on a mmo, where everyone could be judging your DPS and "not pulling your weight".
The thing about meters is that: they limit your selection. There is no way to justify "I want this build" in terms of most efficient thing ever.

I really hope we can chose our skills the way we feel, trying what fits our playstyle and our party/raid, without being just one toon printed from the same mold, next to each other, spamming the exactly same rotation.
Being actually know for our gameplay

Plateau

BlackBrony

There won't be a playstyle. There will be main class - sub class FOTM and that's it.
Nothing else.

Caeryl

BlackBrony wrote: »

There won't be a playstyle. There will be main class - sub class FOTM and that's it.
Nothing else.

If you think IS intends to do nothing about balance then why did you even bother investing in the game’s future?

BlackBrony

Caeryl wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

There won't be a playstyle. There will be main class - sub class FOTM and that's it.
Nothing else.

If you think IS intends to do nothing about balance then why did you even bother investing in the game’s future?

Considering the amount of people asking for a DPS meters, I don't see any other way. It will happen, and the rest of the player base will follow.
Cookie cutter builds will be there, and eventually it will permeate to the rest of the player base, and we all be running the same things if we are interested in doing some content.

Caeryl

BlackBrony wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

There won't be a playstyle. There will be main class - sub class FOTM and that's it.
Nothing else.

If you think IS intends to do nothing about balance then why did you even bother investing in the game’s future?

Considering the amount of people asking for a DPS meters, I don't see any other way. It will happen, and the rest of the player base will follow.
Cookie cutter builds will be there, and eventually it will permeate to the rest of the player base, and we all be running the same things if we are interested in doing some content.

No that’s not even remotely what that means, unless you believe IS to be entirely incapable of developing varied content. Any guide you look at has caveats such as “built assuming raid support” or “can sub out this gear for that gear or that other gear for more sustain/defenses/etc” or “specifically for this boss” or “option A for more AoE, option B for higher single target”.

Your issue apparently comes from your unique for-fun builds not being the most efficient. If it can clear content, you won’t be lacking for other more casual players to group with. Don’t blame your own personal issues and preferences on the players dedicated to making the most of the game.

BlackBrony

Caeryl wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

There won't be a playstyle. There will be main class - sub class FOTM and that's it.
Nothing else.

If you think IS intends to do nothing about balance then why did you even bother investing in the game’s future?

Considering the amount of people asking for a DPS meters, I don't see any other way. It will happen, and the rest of the player base will follow.
Cookie cutter builds will be there, and eventually it will permeate to the rest of the player base, and we all be running the same things if we are interested in doing some content.

No that’s not even remotely what that means, unless you believe IS to be entirely incapable of developing varied content. Any guide you look at has caveats such as “built assuming raid support” or “can sub out this gear for that gear or that other gear for more sustain/defenses/etc” or “specifically for this boss” or “option A for more AoE, option B for higher single target”.

Your issue apparently comes from your unique for-fun builds not being the most efficient. If it can clear content, you won’t be lacking for other more casual players to group with. Don’t blame your own personal issues and preferences on the players dedicated to making the most of the game.

Changing specs won't be easy, that has been said. Therefore you either run the most optimal build or risk being left out in lots of content.
Even semi casual guilds will require you to run the most optimal build.

If you don't raid or do some hard content, it won't matter. But in any place where people need to pull their own weight and there's a party size limit, well, not much options left open.

Caeryl

BlackBrony wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

There won't be a playstyle. There will be main class - sub class FOTM and that's it.
Nothing else.

If you think IS intends to do nothing about balance then why did you even bother investing in the game’s future?

Considering the amount of people asking for a DPS meters, I don't see any other way. It will happen, and the rest of the player base will follow.
Cookie cutter builds will be there, and eventually it will permeate to the rest of the player base, and we all be running the same things if we are interested in doing some content.

No that’s not even remotely what that means, unless you believe IS to be entirely incapable of developing varied content. Any guide you look at has caveats such as “built assuming raid support” or “can sub out this gear for that gear or that other gear for more sustain/defenses/etc” or “specifically for this boss” or “option A for more AoE, option B for higher single target”.

Your issue apparently comes from your unique for-fun builds not being the most efficient. If it can clear content, you won’t be lacking for other more casual players to group with. Don’t blame your own personal issues and preferences on the players dedicated to making the most of the game.

Changing specs won't be easy, that has been said. Therefore you either run the most optimal build or risk being left out in lots of content.
Even semi casual guilds will require you to run the most optimal build.

If you don't raid or do some hard content, it won't matter. But in any place where people need to pull their own weight and there's a party size limit, well, not much options left open.

Except changing specs will be plenty easy? You can change gear and what abilities you take at will. There’s nothing stopping your from carrying a couple gearsets that fit different scenarios.

You can’t instantly change the fundamentals of your class, or instantly alter skill augments, but that isn’t going to make or break your effectiveness unless, again, you assume IS will fail spectacularly at balancing.

A semi-casual guild isn’t going to mandate optimized gear. If they do, then they’re definitely not a semi-casual guild. Casual guilds and PUGs don’t care unless you stop them from clearing.

I’ve been in enough PUGs to know. I’ve been a healer pulling 40% of the group dps in a hardmode 4-man dungeon, no hard dps checks so no one bothered saying anything. I’ve seen a player taking dirt naps, get rez’d, and immediately die again in a 12man raid, left him on the ground but no one bothered suggesting to kick them. I’ve had people be literally afk from 30s in, unless the group needed the body to open a door or something, we always left them to loiter offline.

The only times I’ve kicked or seen someone kicked from a PUG is when they inhibit progress. If they ignore mechanics that kill groupmates, or they ignore mechanics that heal the boss, or we literally just need a 12th body and they’re afk at the start of the raid.

I can count on one hand how many times I’ve seen anyone kicked for bad dps outside of hard dps checks.

Jesforart

AoC has not hit the market and it will be some time before they fully reveal, how they intend the class system will work. The whole game could change in a blink of an eye.

Even though i believe in Intrepid as a game developer, they are going to have to come up with some next-gen class ideas, that will fully get me on board with the mmo and the combat of the mmo.

I have seen this wide gamut of a primary class and secondary class system, tank very harshly just because of balance issues. Guild Wars 1 was very prolific in identifying itself as a mmo with this type of class system (it wasn't an exact match), it took Arenanet years past the mmo's life cycle to finally balance the entire system.

Caeryl

Jesforart wrote: »

<snipped>

Gear is already going to have changeable stats on them. What would having specific weights to armor even do? If Light Armor can be heavy whats the point? You'll almost certainly be able to get high-defense gear and enchant it with magical stats.

This seems like a decent single player idea, not so much for an mmo

grisu

Did I miss some change of philosophy on intrepid part?
Gear and specs will be easily changeable? Since when?
Last I heard is that changing 2ndary classes will require quite a process.
They don't want people to have tons of armorsets cluttering their inventories and do a one fit all situation.

Gear itself comes mostly from crafting which is supposedly a deep and intricate process. Assuming you can just buy a complet revamped set for different stats is quite a bold statement for casual players that don't go out of their way to hoard money/ materials.

Last I heard is that they want every decision to have lasting effects on every scale, from personal to server wide.

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