Meters, why say no?

Moseph wrote: »

@/Caeryl
I agree, in the correct hands, a meter can be a valuable tool. An individual can use it and fight target dummies for as long as they want to figure out the best combo of moves or whatever. I personally enjoy doing this, and pushing my characters to the bleeding edge of their abilities. This does not negate the fact that it still brings the unwanted or negative effects with it. There's a lot of examples for this... probably more than there are good examples.

Because it IS such a valuable tool (in your opinion), you'll make sure to have one in your guild, even if you don't truly know how to interpret the information (I'm not say you don't, and I'm not trying to insult you, but right now there's no proof that you do), or don't have enough people in your guild to really push nightmare or HC modes, but you'll still have it and more than likely use it. In the case you're in someone else guild, because you think it's so valuable you'll probably push them to use it even though THEY might not be able to properly use it.

I don't think anyone said meters weren't valuable. Most people who argue against them are arguing that they think they negatively affect the game more than they positively affect it. Which I'd be inclined to agree with.

If I can remember, the dps meters I've seen and used only displayed how much dps, heals, and aggro people generated or received. Correct me if I'm wrong. They dont show if someone is using interrupts when they should or if they're moving when they should. I've seen a LOT of players hang out in fire or lava for a few extra seconds or miss an interrupt with the goal of pushing their numbers so they would look better, which places a greater demand on the healers / tank increasing the chances for a wipe. I've also seen more people (not playing the same class as someone) tell other they're playing their character wrong because they're not putting out as much dps as someone else. It's even happened to me, despite the fact that I hit all my interrupts and the other didn't.

I can't speak from experience but from the youtube videos and streamers i've watched, I honestly believe that good guilds, pushing for server firsts, or NM/HC mode don't need or use DPS meters. It seems to be all great teamwork and camaraderie. What I HAVE seen both IRL and in streams/videos, is tryhards using the meters to blame others for wipes instead of trying to teach the others the proper mechanics. I'm not saying you're one or the other, these are just my observations. I would love to hear from someone who has actually been in a top guild (with some type of proof) how they use meters, or if they do. I don't personally know, I was never in a guild with server firsts, or 100% NM completions. I HAVE played with a lot of tryhard guilds who thought they were HC though, even though they weren't.

But in the end it really just comes down to what you said I guess.

Caeryl wrote: »

In 2, you don’t intend to be the using the most efficient class/strategy/build/rotation, which is fine, but that group is not obligated to take someone who doesn’t share their goals.

If you want a meter, that is fine, but the studio is not obligated to make or support one for someone who doesn’t share their goals.

Your reply implies you believe combat logging to be a dps meter tool, which it isn’t and which makes attempting to discuss combat logs rather difficult.

An oven can make cookies but it’s not a cookie machine and you wouldn’t throw it out if you go on a diet.

The same goes for a combat tracker. Sure it can measure you dps, but narrowing its use to one specific thing, and trying to say that one specific thing means you can’t use one, is shortsighted at best.

Raid leads use combat trackers to examine a fight. They use it to see buff/debuff uptimes. They use it to see if people are focusing priority adds. They use it to see who’s trying to push their dps instead of doing mechanics. They use it to see who’s dying and why. They use it to see which damage type is the most effective. They use it to see what damage type the boss is dealing. They use it to see at what times the group triggered a new boss phase. They use it to see why boss aggro shifted. They use it to yes, see if a group member is pulling numbers lower than is acceptable.

In the hands of someone ill equipped to handle that knowledge, their oven is a cookie machine.

In the hands of someone equipped to make the most of that knowledge, their oven is a source of 5 course meals.

Noaani’s suggestion to make combat tracking a guild perk means that there will be next to no idiots being handed combat trackers that they’ll only be able to see as dps meters.

Edit: WoW logs and ESO logs track all information from a fight, those are the two I know of best. From gear and skills, to what skills were used when, to where exactly someone was standing. That’s what I talk about when I refer to combat logs.

Moseph

Ventharien wrote: »

@Moseph Yeah i'd agree that most of the people on the No side come from that logic. As to meters, nowadays there are many (depending on game) that show how many interrupts you've used, how much damage you've taken, and what are the last few sources of that dealt damage. Noanni and Caeryl are also referring to parses, or after combat log data, which can give a pretty big glut of data, like what abilities were active upon you at what points of the fight, along with all the damage, healing, etc. that youd expect.

Whoa... so they basically show everything with the exception of environmental mechanics? If thats the case, I'm not sure how I feel about that. Seems like it would cheapen the encounter.

Moseph wrote: »

Ventharien wrote: »

@Moseph Yeah i'd agree that most of the people on the No side come from that logic. As to meters, nowadays there are many (depending on game) that show how many interrupts you've used, how much damage you've taken, and what are the last few sources of that dealt damage. Noanni and Caeryl are also referring to parses, or after combat log data, which can give a pretty big glut of data, like what abilities were active upon you at what points of the fight, along with all the damage, healing, etc. that youd expect.

Whoa... so they basically show everything with the exception of environmental mechanics? If thats the case, I'm not sure how I feel about that.

No, they show environmental mechanics.

If you are standing in the lava, a combat tracker will tell the whole raid how much damage that lava did to you.

Essentially, combat trackers completely remove the ability to hide from what has just occurred - but offer nothing at all to assist you in what is about to come, other than that knowledge of what has occurred.

There is a small part of me that can't help but think people dead set against them in all occasions want nothing more than to be able to lie to their group as to what happened and what they did, as essentially all a combat tracker does is remove the ability to lie to your group/raid/guild.

noaani wrote: »

No, they show environmental mechanics.

If you are standing in the lava, a combat tracker will tell the whole raid how much damage that lava did to you.

Essentially, combat trackers completely remove the ability to hide from what has just occurred - but offer nothing at all to assist you in what is about to come, other than that knowledge of what has occurred.

There is a small part of me that can't help but think people dead set against them in all occasions want nothing more than to be able to lie to their group as to what happened and what they did, as essentially all a combat tracker does is remove the ability to lie to your group/raid/guild.

I don't personally enjoy what is tied with meters. By this I mean:

- all classes running the same build
- add on that play the game for you. "Danger, X mechanic is coming, move" messages on your screen

I understand the want to know the combat and the reliance on numbers, but I also feel people are not open about other ways to play the game and experience/evaluate performance.
It would seem that the only way we know on how to play PvE encounters is having a tool that is telling us everything that happened.
And the thing is, you only need to figure it out once. If you have such tremendous aid, no developer can make the content last enough time.
It takes 1 raid, then all the others get the info, and it's done.

Barring the fact that this game doesn't have purely PvE encounters.

One of the things I wish more people would keep in mind is that the actions that players are taking that many attribute to combat trackers are actually actions that players would take regardless.

People get kicked out of a group or guild due to low DPS and blame the combat tracker - which is absolutely ridiculous.

If you are not someone that is that concerned about min/maxing your character, you simply shouldn't be grouping with players that are, or joining guilds that are. This is absolutely no different to someone that is not interested in PvP'ing joining a guild that is all about PvP, and then complaining because they got booted from the guild for not PvP'ing.

The issue here isn't the combat trackers. It has never been the combat trackers. It can't be the combat trackers because these same issues existed before combat trackers, and exist even when no players in a given situation are using them.

Rather, the issue is people not realizing that they are attempting to group or guild with players of a vastly different playstyle, and so not making the adjustments in expectations that would be needed for that to be successful.

You don't need a combat tracker to tell you that a min/max player won't fit in well to a casual group or guild, nor do you need one to tell you that a casual guild won't fit in well to a group or guild full of players that know how to use a combat tracker properly.

To me, this is little more than another reason to implement a combat tracker in to the game itself rather than leaving it up to third party developers.

Work with the idea that I have put forward a number of times where at a specific guild level the leadership is given a choice of several options. One of these is a combat tracker (that only works on members of your guild), but there is also one that assists PvP players more, one that crafters would die for, and one for solo players. Assuming the game has a built in guild recruitment tool (something similar to Archeage is what I am thinking right now), the choice they make between these options could be put right in the middle of their recruitment page, telling everyone that looks exactly what this guild prioritizes.

If you are not an analytical player, and don't want to become one, you will know immediately to avoid and guilds that have taken that option.

I can see some people saying "but that would segment the playerbase in to different type of guilds and that is bad!". My simply response to that would be "no, that is segmenting players in to playstyle, which is what you want players to do if you want them to stay in the game longer".

noaani wrote: »

One of the things I wish more people would keep in mind is that the actions that players are taking that many attribute to combat trackers are actually actions that players would take regardless.

People get kicked out of a group or guild due to low DPS and blame the combat tracker - which is absolutely ridiculous.

If you are not someone that is that concerned about min/maxing your character, you simply shouldn't be grouping with players that are, or joining guilds that are. This is absolutely no different to someone that is not interested in PvP'ing joining a guild that is all about PvP, and then complaining because they got booted from the guild for not PvP'ing.

The issue here isn't the combat trackers. It has never been the combat trackers. It can't be the combat trackers because these same issues existed before combat trackers, and exist even when no players in a given situation are using them.

Rather, the issue is people not realizing that they are attempting to group or guild with players of a vastly different playstyle, and so not making the adjustments in expectations that would be needed for that to be successful.

You don't need a combat tracker to tell you that a min/max player won't fit in well to a casual group or guild, nor do you need one to tell you that a casual guild won't fit in well to a group or guild full of players that know how to use a combat tracker properly.

To me, this is little more than another reason to implement a combat tracker in to the game itself rather than leaving it up to third party developers.

Work with the idea that I have put forward a number of times where at a specific guild level the leadership is given a choice of several options. One of these is a combat tracker (that only works on members of your guild), but there is also one that assists PvP players more, one that crafters would die for, and one for solo players. Assuming the game has a built in guild recruitment tool (something similar to Archeage is what I am thinking right now), the choice they make between these options could be put right in the middle of their recruitment page, telling everyone that looks exactly what this guild prioritizes.

If you are not an analytical player, and don't want to become one, you will know immediately to avoid and guilds that have taken that option.

I can see some people saying "but that would segment the playerbase in to different type of guilds and that is bad!". My simply response to that would be "no, that is segmenting players in to playstyle, which is what you want players to do if you want them to stay in the game longer".

Meters take options away. If the DPS mega fan writes a post about X build being the best, eventually everyone is running that, it doesn't matter if they're min maxers or not.

It only takes 1 guide. You can't discuss numbers, numbers are definitive. If X build performs 3% better, it doesn't matter what you like, the options that you have, you must build X build then.

If that's the case, I'd just rather have 1 skill that deals 1 damage, and be done with it. Why give me diversity if all I'm going to hear is "not the most optimal build".
And it's not the players, it's the meters! The meters give definitive conclusion on which build is the best

Plateau

BlackBrony wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

No, they show environmental mechanics.

If you are standing in the lava, a combat tracker will tell the whole raid how much damage that lava did to you.

Essentially, combat trackers completely remove the ability to hide from what has just occurred - but offer nothing at all to assist you in what is about to come, other than that knowledge of what has occurred.

There is a small part of me that can't help but think people dead set against them in all occasions want nothing more than to be able to lie to their group as to what happened and what they did, as essentially all a combat tracker does is remove the ability to lie to your group/raid/guild.

I don't personally enjoy what is tied with meters. By this I mean:

- all classes running the same build
- add on that play the game for you. "Danger, X mechanic is coming, move" messages on your screen

I understand the want to know the combat and the reliance on numbers, but I also feel people are not open about other ways to play the game and experience/evaluate performance.
It would seem that the only way we know on how to play PvE encounters is having a tool that is telling us everything that happened.
And the thing is, you only need to figure it out once. If you have such tremendous aid, no developer can make the content last enough time.
It takes 1 raid, then all the others get the info, and it's done.

Barring the fact that this game doesn't have purely PvE encounters.

Neither of the things you listed are tied to the presence of combat trackers. The first stems from really bad game design, if one gearset could possibly be the best for every class, or that any one gearset would ever be best for every type of content.

The second is not a combat tracker. Trackers show data after the fight has already occurred. Combat assistants are entirely different, and rightly shouldn’t be allowed. Callouts for mechanics should be done by raid leads, and having an automated system isn’t necessary to succeed.

Combat trackers do not provide detailed failsafe strategies. They only show the results of the strategy your group used. Unless your group cleared on the first try, it won’t tell you what works, only what didn’t. And if your raid group is actually overgeared for the raid, that “it worked” feedback might not be remotely useable for a group at lower levels.

BlackBrony wrote: »

It only takes 1 guide.

While I agree with you in that it is an issue when players feel they don't have options, you are misplacing the blame here.

The blame is with the guide, not the combat tracker. The guide will exist with or without the combat tracker - and indeed in games where combat trackers are hardly used (Archeage is a good example here), class guides are more adhered to than they are in games where combat trackers are more common.

If the game is well designed, the "best" build for a given class should change drastically based on whether the player has specific class defining items or not, whether the player has specific support classes in their group or not, what type of content the player is taking on, and any number of other things. Even the specific tank class should be a factor in determining what the best build is for a given class.

Thus, with all of these variables, players would need to look at their specific situation to determine what the best build for them is.

Any good class guide that is obtained via combat tracker should have these points in it. If these points don't exist - if there is one build that is always the best - then this is an issue with the design of the class.

If the design of the class is that poor, and a combat tracker was used to shine a light on this fact, why are you blaming the combat tracker rather than the people that developed that class?

noaani wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

It only takes 1 guide.

The blame is with the guide, not the combat tracker. The guide will exist with or without the combat tracker - and indeed in games where combat trackers are hardly used (Archeage is a good example here), class guides are more adhered to than they are in games where combat trackers are more common.

If the game is well designed, the "best" build for a given class should change drastically based on whether the player has specific class defining items or not, whether the player has specific support classes in their group or not, what type of content the player is taking on, and any number of other things. Even the specific tank class should be a factor in determining what the best build is for a given class.

Thus, with all of these variables, players would need to look at their specific situation to determine what the best build for them is.

Any good class guide that is obtained via combat tracker should have these points in it. If these points don't exist - if there is one build that is always the best - then this is an issue with the design of the class.

If the design of the class is that poor, and a combat tracker was used to shine a light on this fact, why are you blaming the combat tracker rather than the people that developed that class?

Please tell me a game where this happens, I don't know any honestly.
I'm not really trying to blame people or things, I'm just expressing a feeling that I have towards things that can happen.
Guides backed by numbers are much more hard to falsify, which means either you need more fine-tuning on those numbers, meaning finding even more ways to increase DPS. And please, all of those guides are about max DPS, well most of them, except healers/tanks, which are proportionally and historically a much less number of the population.
Numbers don't leave much options for interpretation. Yes, there are corner cases, where for certain fights you need a different build that might be more movement oriented, but overall, everyone will know that X build does most DPS and should always be the go to build for your class. The same way ranged is most of the time better for combat, since it's not penalized that much by distance.

On the other hand, you can't change builds so easily, at least in AoC. If you can't change builds easily, it means now you're even more restricted. If you don't go the way you're supposed to go, you will be scorned, if you're not doing your job. This doesn't mean pulling 100% DPS, just doing your class job.
But with guides backed by numbers? Well, can't really discuss that, you're just right, as right as 2+2 being 4.

I know people like numbers, but I don't really see what is the problem in learning by experience, by seeing things and trial and error.
I mean, if you want numbers just to beat the content as fast as possible, what is really what you're achieving? You won at math.

BlackBrony wrote: »

Please tell me a game where this happens, I don't know any honestly.

EQ.

EQ2.

Age of Conan.

Rift (though to a much lesser degree).

My understanding of FFXIV is that this is the case, though I have not played it myself to confirm.

It really is only games that have attempted to copy WoW's combat - or attempt to be a game where players from WoW would feel immediately at home - that don't do this.

If you want to expand this to MMO* games rather than MMORPG's, you could happily add in Path of Exile, a game where the best build for you is almost entirely dependent on what items you have.

I'm not really trying to blame people or things, I'm just expressing a feeling that I have towards things that can happen.

To be clear, I am not suggesting you should feel any different to these things that can happen - nor am I suggesting they don't happen.

What I am suggesting is that these things do not happen because of combat trackers. They happen, and combat trackers are involved, but there is no causation here in either direction.

Guides backed by numbers are much more hard to falsify

Attempting to falsify a well constructed guide is not the way to go. What you should be doing is attempting to point out exceptions to what the guide says.

But that goes back to what I have already said. If you are not the kind of player that wants to get the absolute best out of your class - you shouldn't be grouping up with people who make that their main focus. If you are more casual in how you approach combat, group up with people that are more casual.

As I said in an above post, this is no different to someone that doesn't enjoy PvP attempting to join a PvP group and then refuse to PvP. When looking for a group or a guild, you should look for one that fits you and your play style - and maximum efficiency is a play style.

If someone is advertising they want one more for a PvP group, you put your hand up to join but are then kicked when you refuse to PvP, you would no doubt blame yourself.

Why is it any different then to if someone is looking to fill a spot in an efficient group, and you put your hand up to fill that spot but are then kicked for not being efficient. if that happens to you, you blame the people, or you blame the combat tracker, but you never blame yourself for joining the wrong group (note, not you specifically, just people in general).

My argument here is as much about making efficiency in combat recognized as the valid play style that is has been among the population for two decades actually recognized by developers as that - a valid play style.

This doesn't mean that everyone needs to participate in the game like that - just as not everyone needs to be a full on PvP player, or a full on crafter.

There are plenty of players that are happy playing in a more casual manner in every game, so finding a group shouldn't be an issue. On the other hand, if you want to participate in harder content, you need to be willing to be the character that your guild needs you to be. If that leaves you with only one build, then complain to the game developers.

There is no point in this where anything would be different if combat trackers are not present.

Edit; Then there is also the question that you have to ask of a developer that is attempting to prevent combat trackers in their game; what are you trying to hide?

Wong

Personally, i don't agree that DPS should be a main factor for groups performing well in all raiding. Maybe for a boss fight that requires you to burst him down so he has fewer phases or the phases last less time, but not all the time.
I don't really care if there is a DPS meter in the game or not, i'm not going to use one either way. I realize some people like writing their character entirely in spreadsheets and getting every single number down to the 0.001 accuracy.
I am not one of those people. Most people don't like that as well - they just want to look cool, have cool abilities and kill the bad guy in raids/dungeon content. They don't care if they kill it in 10 or 20 minutes. It's the experience itself rather than the end result.

At the end of the day, It's their decision and i think we should respect it. If you want to use a 3rd party program to go around their design decision that's fine by me as well.

I feel you want this:

1- Give DPS meters so we can beat content faster
2- Beat content
3- Why aren't you making enough content, this game sucks.

It doesn't matter how much you like numbers, I can only see this in my head. You want DPS meter to beat content faster, achieving the most efficient way to do it, there is no other explanation.

BlackBrony wrote: »

I feel you want this:

1- Give DPS meters so we can beat content faster
2- Beat content
3- Why aren't you making enough content, this game sucks.

It doesn't matter how much you like numbers, I can only see this in my head. You want DPS meter to beat content faster, achieving the most efficient way to do it, there is no other explanation.

Putting aside the smarmy tone, you aren’t technically wrong. There are players whose enjoyment comes from pushing their dps, their clear speed, and their overall effectiveness. There’s nothing wrong with players enjoying that type of playstyle.

Combat logs mean instead of having to video record every person’s POV and going over each recording second by second to understand exactly what happened, it would be condensed to a single file in an easily read format so feedback could be obtained quicker, and therefore new strategies could be developed quicker.

So yes, it would save performance-focused players a lot of time to not have to wade through all the noise and obscured information while attempting to take on raids. That isn’t a bad thing.

And I can promise you, you’re gonna see “where new stuff? game sucks??” no matter how fast they pump out content. That’s how the internet is. The presence of combat logging wouldn’t change that at all.

Plateau

BlackBrony wrote: »

I feel you want this:

1- Give DPS meters so we can beat content faster
2- Beat content
3- Why aren't you making enough content, this game sucks.

It doesn't matter how much you like numbers, I can only see this in my head. You want DPS meter to beat content faster, achieving the most efficient way to do it, there is no other explanation.

Replace #3 with "now you can make content more complex" and you are spot on.

I'm happy spending weeks trying to figure out an encounter, but only if we can all see what is happening. I'm not so keen on spending weeks trying to guess how to take on an encounter.

noaani wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

I feel you want this:

1- Give DPS meters so we can beat content faster
2- Beat content
3- Why aren't you making enough content, this game sucks.

It doesn't matter how much you like numbers, I can only see this in my head. You want DPS meter to beat content faster, achieving the most efficient way to do it, there is no other explanation.

Replace #3 with "now you can make content more complex" and you are spot on.

I'm happy spending weeks trying to figure out an encounter, but only if we can all see what is happening. I'm not so keen on spending weeks trying to guess how to take on an encounter.

You can't even know this in real life. Nothing should be completely known in games, that is part of the magic. Even in real life you're never certain while doing experiments. You might expect the outcome, but not 100% sure of the data.
This builds mysticism and allows for exotic solutions.

Also I refuse to more complex content. Because developers should not waste half of their resources on satisfying 5% of the population because they use trackers.
Without trackers that same content would be as complex as any.

BlackBrony wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

I feel you want this:

1- Give DPS meters so we can beat content faster
2- Beat content
3- Why aren't you making enough content, this game sucks.

It doesn't matter how much you like numbers, I can only see this in my head. You want DPS meter to beat content faster, achieving the most efficient way to do it, there is no other explanation.

Replace #3 with "now you can make content more complex" and you are spot on.

I'm happy spending weeks trying to figure out an encounter, but only if we can all see what is happening. I'm not so keen on spending weeks trying to guess how to take on an encounter.

You can't even know this in real life. Nothing should be completely known in games, that is part of the magic. Even in real life you're never certain while doing experiments. You might expect the outcome, but not 100% sure of the data.
This builds mysticism and allows for exotic solutions.

Also I refuse to more complex content. Because developers should not waste half of their resources on satisfying 5% of the population because they use trackers.
Without trackers that same content would be as complex as any.

In real life you film and observe and make notes when you do an experiment. You make a log so you can know what happened when you did a specific action. Yknow...like a combat log tracks what happened when your group used a specific strategy.

The developers should make content for every type of player. High tier, dedicated players included.

Caeryl wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

I feel you want this:

1- Give DPS meters so we can beat content faster
2- Beat content
3- Why aren't you making enough content, this game sucks.

It doesn't matter how much you like numbers, I can only see this in my head. You want DPS meter to beat content faster, achieving the most efficient way to do it, there is no other explanation.

Replace #3 with "now you can make content more complex" and you are spot on.

I'm happy spending weeks trying to figure out an encounter, but only if we can all see what is happening. I'm not so keen on spending weeks trying to guess how to take on an encounter.

You can't even know this in real life. Nothing should be completely known in games, that is part of the magic. Even in real life you're never certain while doing experiments. You might expect the outcome, but not 100% sure of the data.
This builds mysticism and allows for exotic solutions.

Also I refuse to more complex content. Because developers should not waste half of their resources on satisfying 5% of the population because they use trackers.
Without trackers that same content would be as complex as any.

In real life you film and observe and make notes when you do an experiment. You make a log so you can know what happened when you did a specific action. Yknow...like a combat log tracks what happened when your group used a specific strategy.

The developers should make content for every type of player. High tier, dedicated players included.

A meter is not content.