Caeryl wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » noaani wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » I feel you want this: 1- Give DPS meters so we can beat content faster 2- Beat content 3- Why aren't you making enough content, this game sucks. It doesn't matter how much you like numbers, I can only see this in my head. You want DPS meter to beat content faster, achieving the most efficient way to do it, there is no other explanation. Replace #3 with "now you can make content more complex" and you are spot on. I'm happy spending weeks trying to figure out an encounter, but only if we can all see what is happening. I'm not so keen on spending weeks trying to guess how to take on an encounter. You can't even know this in real life. Nothing should be completely known in games, that is part of the magic. Even in real life you're never certain while doing experiments. You might expect the outcome, but not 100% sure of the data. This builds mysticism and allows for exotic solutions. Also I refuse to more complex content. Because developers should not waste half of their resources on satisfying 5% of the population because they use trackers. Without trackers that same content would be as complex as any. In real life you film and observe and make notes when you do an experiment. You make a log so you can know what happened when you did a specific action. Yknow...like a combat log tracks what happened when your group used a specific strategy. The developers should make content for every type of player. High tier, dedicated players included. A meter is not content. A combat log is not a meter. Conveniently you fail to address how combat logs aren’t like getting perfect information of a fight before you “experiment”. They are however, exactly like recording and reviewing information of your experiment so you know what to change going forward.
BlackBrony wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » noaani wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » I feel you want this: 1- Give DPS meters so we can beat content faster 2- Beat content 3- Why aren't you making enough content, this game sucks. It doesn't matter how much you like numbers, I can only see this in my head. You want DPS meter to beat content faster, achieving the most efficient way to do it, there is no other explanation. Replace #3 with "now you can make content more complex" and you are spot on. I'm happy spending weeks trying to figure out an encounter, but only if we can all see what is happening. I'm not so keen on spending weeks trying to guess how to take on an encounter. You can't even know this in real life. Nothing should be completely known in games, that is part of the magic. Even in real life you're never certain while doing experiments. You might expect the outcome, but not 100% sure of the data. This builds mysticism and allows for exotic solutions. Also I refuse to more complex content. Because developers should not waste half of their resources on satisfying 5% of the population because they use trackers. Without trackers that same content would be as complex as any. In real life you film and observe and make notes when you do an experiment. You make a log so you can know what happened when you did a specific action. Yknow...like a combat log tracks what happened when your group used a specific strategy. The developers should make content for every type of player. High tier, dedicated players included. A meter is not content.
Caeryl wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » noaani wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » I feel you want this: 1- Give DPS meters so we can beat content faster 2- Beat content 3- Why aren't you making enough content, this game sucks. It doesn't matter how much you like numbers, I can only see this in my head. You want DPS meter to beat content faster, achieving the most efficient way to do it, there is no other explanation. Replace #3 with "now you can make content more complex" and you are spot on. I'm happy spending weeks trying to figure out an encounter, but only if we can all see what is happening. I'm not so keen on spending weeks trying to guess how to take on an encounter. You can't even know this in real life. Nothing should be completely known in games, that is part of the magic. Even in real life you're never certain while doing experiments. You might expect the outcome, but not 100% sure of the data. This builds mysticism and allows for exotic solutions. Also I refuse to more complex content. Because developers should not waste half of their resources on satisfying 5% of the population because they use trackers. Without trackers that same content would be as complex as any. In real life you film and observe and make notes when you do an experiment. You make a log so you can know what happened when you did a specific action. Yknow...like a combat log tracks what happened when your group used a specific strategy. The developers should make content for every type of player. High tier, dedicated players included.
BlackBrony wrote: » noaani wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » I feel you want this: 1- Give DPS meters so we can beat content faster 2- Beat content 3- Why aren't you making enough content, this game sucks. It doesn't matter how much you like numbers, I can only see this in my head. You want DPS meter to beat content faster, achieving the most efficient way to do it, there is no other explanation. Replace #3 with "now you can make content more complex" and you are spot on. I'm happy spending weeks trying to figure out an encounter, but only if we can all see what is happening. I'm not so keen on spending weeks trying to guess how to take on an encounter. You can't even know this in real life. Nothing should be completely known in games, that is part of the magic. Even in real life you're never certain while doing experiments. You might expect the outcome, but not 100% sure of the data. This builds mysticism and allows for exotic solutions. Also I refuse to more complex content. Because developers should not waste half of their resources on satisfying 5% of the population because they use trackers. Without trackers that same content would be as complex as any.
noaani wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » I feel you want this: 1- Give DPS meters so we can beat content faster 2- Beat content 3- Why aren't you making enough content, this game sucks. It doesn't matter how much you like numbers, I can only see this in my head. You want DPS meter to beat content faster, achieving the most efficient way to do it, there is no other explanation. Replace #3 with "now you can make content more complex" and you are spot on. I'm happy spending weeks trying to figure out an encounter, but only if we can all see what is happening. I'm not so keen on spending weeks trying to guess how to take on an encounter.
BlackBrony wrote: » I feel you want this: 1- Give DPS meters so we can beat content faster 2- Beat content 3- Why aren't you making enough content, this game sucks. It doesn't matter how much you like numbers, I can only see this in my head. You want DPS meter to beat content faster, achieving the most efficient way to do it, there is no other explanation.
BlackBrony wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » noaani wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » I feel you want this: 1- Give DPS meters so we can beat content faster 2- Beat content 3- Why aren't you making enough content, this game sucks. It doesn't matter how much you like numbers, I can only see this in my head. You want DPS meter to beat content faster, achieving the most efficient way to do it, there is no other explanation. Replace #3 with "now you can make content more complex" and you are spot on. I'm happy spending weeks trying to figure out an encounter, but only if we can all see what is happening. I'm not so keen on spending weeks trying to guess how to take on an encounter. You can't even know this in real life. Nothing should be completely known in games, that is part of the magic. Even in real life you're never certain while doing experiments. You might expect the outcome, but not 100% sure of the data. This builds mysticism and allows for exotic solutions. Also I refuse to more complex content. Because developers should not waste half of their resources on satisfying 5% of the population because they use trackers. Without trackers that same content would be as complex as any. In real life you film and observe and make notes when you do an experiment. You make a log so you can know what happened when you did a specific action. Yknow...like a combat log tracks what happened when your group used a specific strategy. The developers should make content for every type of player. High tier, dedicated players included. A meter is not content. A combat log is not a meter. Conveniently you fail to address how combat logs aren’t like getting perfect information of a fight before you “experiment”. They are however, exactly like recording and reviewing information of your experiment so you know what to change going forward. Yes, but that does not apply irl, it's impossible to have such accurate information, that's what I mean
Caeryl wrote: » It’s entirely possible to get such accurate information irl. How do you think any scientific field works? They write down everything. Everything is logged and recorded for future reference and repeated multiple times to determine causation. Combat logging is that process done by a program to save time, but it will not play the game for you. It won’t give you answers, just the information to determine those answers on your own.
BlackBrony wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » It’s entirely possible to get such accurate information irl. How do you think any scientific field works? They write down everything. Everything is logged and recorded for future reference and repeated multiple times to determine causation. Combat logging is that process done by a program to save time, but it will not play the game for you. It won’t give you answers, just the information to determine those answers on your own. First you need to develop such tools to record that information, and those tools have limits on how precise they can be. Therefore, a perfectly accurate combat tracker is an impossibility in real life. If combat trackers gave median information, you'll never know exactly for sure, but still get an idea.
Suffer wrote: » Yeah, I do agree that there isn't evidence that the combat trackers aren't specifically the cause of the issues noaani. As Moseph mentioned, it isn't that meters themselves are bad, but because (some) of the people who use them are bad. It's like the saying, guns don't kill people, people do. But in a game world, you can take away all the "guns" because people don't need them for the game's purpose. This way, you remove any possibility of any toxic behavior stemming from the bad people using trackers at the expense of something you don't need in order to play the game as intended. It's only something a small percentage of the player base (high tier) want. Yes, bad people will still do other bad things but those topics are for a different thread. Getting the information from game play is what is intended, and that should come from communication which promotes social behavior. If you feel like you're being lied to then I guess you're not really playing with the high tier, analytical group you thought you were playing with? And if you're that high tier and analytical you should be able to easily spot that person. What I was getting at about no point in Intrepid making an in-house tracker is that even if they made one for the purpose of "controlling" what kind of tracker people can use, what's stopping people from still just making one that isn't in the scope of what Intrepid wants if that's what they're gonna do anyway? If Intrepid doesn't want people using third party add-ons then they shouldn't have to give in and spend more time creating more systems for people who think in such ways as "well we're just gonna do it anyway". Should Intrepid make a tool so I can see the fastest gold per hour I can make from skilling? Should they also make tools for finding the most efficient questing path for the most xp per hour? We could think of lots of different tools that they "should be developing for every type of player". Instead, Intrepid could better spend time creating systems to catch those people using third party tools because if those people have that mentality of "I do whatever I want" then they are probably doing other things they shouldn't be doing as well. I am no game programmer and I haven't researched how difficult it is to catch people using third party software. However, AI is becoming pretty popular nowadays and, to me, it seems like it would be pretty simple to have random screen grabs that would be sent to a server. From there, the AI can analyze it and if one is flagged, sent to a human to investigate and ban if needed. There are already lots of these instances being used in non-gaming platforms.
Moseph wrote: » When Destiny 2 came out, our clan beat the raid the second or third day it was open.
Moseph wrote: » @/Caeryl First off there seems to be a disparity between our information. As you're more familiar with WoW and ESO trackers, I'm more familiar with SWTOR trackers. I quit WoW in 07...08, and never got to ESO endgame. The combat trackers you're talking about are far more advanced than what I'm used to. Thanks for making me aware of that. Now that I know how much info the combat trackers you're talking about gather, I'm not sure how I feel about them. When Destiny 2 came out, our clan beat the raid the second or third day it was open. We beat it by going in there and observing while we fought. Inch by inch we figured out all the mechanics with no advice or guidance from outside sources. We did have a few different teams though. My primary guild in SWTOR did the same for the raids there, but not as quickly as my D2 clan, but we still did it for EV, KP, EC, some of TB, and some of SV. Using your version of a combat tracker seems like it would've made all that a lot easier, and it feels like it would've cheapened the whole thing for me. I don't think i would feel the same sense of accomplishment, almost like it was given to me. I don't really mind smashing face on puzzles. Oh man, if there was a procedurally generated dungeon that changed biweekly or monthly, I would love it. Like a labyrinth with moving rooms, changing bosses, new puzzles... I would attempt it every week even if the rewards were nothing more than a simple title.
Azryil wrote: » Part of the reasoning for a low percentage of the player base completing content is due to how the content is tied to the progression of specific nodes and how Steven expects each server to have a unique node progression.
Caeryl wrote: » I don’t see combat logging as a tool that cheapens anything. It cuts out the time you’d otherwise have to spend recording and rewatching fights to pick out the details, letting you get back to throwing yourself at the wall quicker. I find it more enjoyable to know where we’re fucking up instead of trying to guess it out for multiple fights. I don’t mind failure when it’s clear what went wrong, and I expect for most fights, a combat log won’t be necessary to clear it.
Moseph wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » I don’t see combat logging as a tool that cheapens anything. It cuts out the time you’d otherwise have to spend recording and rewatching fights to pick out the details, letting you get back to throwing yourself at the wall quicker. I find it more enjoyable to know where we’re fucking up instead of trying to guess it out for multiple fights. I don’t mind failure when it’s clear what went wrong, and I expect for most fights, a combat log won’t be necessary to clear it. Damn, I've never recorded and rewatched one of my fights before. Thats... a good idea. We've always held post mission debriefs. More like a round table discussion were everyone notes what went wrong or right. How'd you go about doing that? Did you record and upload to youtube and send out links, or like a guild website?
