Possibility to change class system due to feedback

Is there a plan B if the system receives negative feedback once all classes and their combinations are accessible for testing AND have been tested thoroughly?

Obviously we wont know until we test all the class combinations and weapon playstyles, but we may find that it fails the developers and players expectations.

One idea might be to move away from class combinations and establish 15 or do stand-alone, defined classes, with unique theme*.

Another might be a more strict course with 20 classes, locked weapon selection and shared theme for a few of them.

I guess my main question is, if it doesnt work, is there time to develop a new class system?

*theme has nothing to do with function.
A holy knight is different than a dark knight, but both are tanks.

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Noaani

I would hope they have a backup plan - not because I think they will have issues, but because backup plans are always a good idea.

That said, I do think that if the playerbase are willing to accept a difference in theme (as per your definition) as being enough to distinguish two classes from each other, there really won't be much of an issue.

If players expect 64 unique functional classes, we will have an issue - if we expect maybe 12 - 16 different functional classes with 4 - 6 themes of each, we'll be fine.

grisu

Or just iterate until it works?
It's still just a bunch of classes with "a lot" more options. If the classes don't work and no one likes them, it's because the class is unappealing not because we have "a lot" of options to customize it.

Wong

It really depends on what exactly the feedback is.

Right now, i don't see any problem with the system. You have a main class that supplies the main playstyle of your character (i.e. if you choose a mage main, you are going to have elemental spells like fireballs etc) and a secondary class that gives flavor to the main class - maybe a mage gets an augment that turns his fireball to a lightning ball, or fractures the fireball where 80% of the damage is dealt to the main target and the rest spills on the ground as a DoT AoE. A mage+rogue is still a mage. A Fighter-mage is still a fighter. You don't have 64 classes, you have 8 different flavors for each archetype - fighter, tank, mage etc.

1. If there is feedback that 1,2,3 classes are not particularly good, they can revisit their class kits.
2. If there is feedback that augments in some classes are not particularly good for one reason or another, they can revisit that as well.
3. If there is feedback that everything is terrible in the class system then something went terribly wrong and there are a couple of ways to go about it, but the point where we get all classes is in Alpha2 which is supposed to last several months as well.

At the end of the day, the reason we have tests is exactly that. Test things earlier in development and iterate on them until it works.

That being said, i think people should tone down the theorycrafting and crazy imaginary things that classes might/will/should have. I think the designers have a solid vision on what they want each class to be. Not everything we want to be in will be in the game and there might be some things we don't like about some classes. That however doesn't mean that the whole class system needs to be redesigned.

I haven't asked anyone about the A1 builds, but i am willing to bet money that each time they test the build is at least a little bit updated, hence a new iteration of the test environment.

George_Black

Mate this is the second time you reply without reading and you miss the point.

Read again, dont skip. Then post.

unknown

This content has been removed.

Jahlon

So each class has 8 sub-classes since your main is fixed, but your secondary is changeable.

I don't think they are going to just scrap the 8x8 system and come up with 15 classes.

They've already removed 4 main archetypes years ago, so they have worked these numbers on paper for years.

Atama

Ikcen wrote: »

You will have 8 classes. Then the things will be object of long list of adjustments. The perfect class balance is literally impossible, due the fact the players are very different, so there always will be a room for fixes and updates. That is why your idea does not have benefits. 8 or 64 classes, there always will be a negative feedback and constant improvements.

Also the development team should do something after the game is released.

Pretty much this, yes. ^

Nagash

change what you want just don't touch my necromancer

Wong

George Black wrote: »

Mate this is the second time you reply without reading and you miss the point.

Read again, dont skip. Then post.

Who are you talking to and what exactly did he miss? I assume you're talking about me. Please explain what exactly i missed in the post.

George_Black

Jahlon wrote: »

So each class has 8 sub-classes since your main is fixed, but your secondary is changeable.

I don't think they are going to just scrap the 8x8 system and come up with 15 classes.

They've already removed 4 main archetypes years ago, so they have worked these numbers on paper for years.

There is a possibility that the 8x8, meaning the 8 classes with 8 augmentation sets might feel empty, with just a handful of them being viable and fun to play, while the rest combos dont perform as expected.

I will take the (a)fighter and (b)rogue classes to make an example:
(a)
Weaponmaster
Dreadnaught
Shadowblade
Hunter
(b)
Duelist
Shadowguardian
Assassin
Predator

Will all the above combos be solid. If not, and only half[4]of the above names are solid, why split strengths and features between 4 names, but instead take those strengths and features into 2 or 1 class to make 2 or 1 viable playstyle instead if 4 non viable.

More Fighter classes
Spellsword
Bladecaller
Highsword
Bladedancer

More Rogue classes
Nightspell
Shadowlord
Cultist
Charlatan

@mrsynth as you see on the original post I didnt do any lazy theory crafting or claim to know what classes will be like, I just asked "if the system doesnt work, do we have time to address it". As for the other topic that you patronized and said "Steven has arleady addressed it, so chill", if the question was never asked it would have never been addressed. Check the date of tge topic, and then check the date of the Dev Update.

Testing phases are for discussion.

@Nagash Necromancer comes from summoner and cleric. Let's examine...

Summoner based classes:
WildBlade
BroodWarden
ShadowMancer
BeastMaster
Spellmancer
Conjurer
Necromancer
Enchanter

Cleric based classes:
Templar
Apostle
ShadowDisciple
Protector
Oracle
Shaman
HighPriest
Scryer

Do you find that Necromancer and the remaining 15 classes above will be viable in combat?
Would you like to see the Necromancers identity and strengths diluted between Shadowmancer, Conjurer, Shadow Disciple if indeed after testing not all combos seem viable?

I will type this here again. Obviously we dont know anything until we test all classes. But once we do, if the system doesnt work, do we have enough time to rebuild it? If I dont ask whether there is a plan B now, when will I? At Beta2?

If no questions are asked during a testing period before the game goes live, then what are we doing here?

George_Black

Ikcen wrote: »

You will have 8 classes. Then the things will be object of long list of adjustments. The perfect class balance is literally impossible, due the fact the players are very different, so there always will be a room for fixes and updates. That is why your idea does not have benefits. 8 or 64 classes, there always will be a negative feedback and constant improvements.

Also the development team should do something after the game is released.

I guess swearing does get you banned hey?
Where in this topic did you get the impression that I was seeking the perfect class balance between 64 classes?
I asked whether we have time AFTER TESTING to change the system. Your posts have no benefits, even after 6-7 pages of quote wars.

Obviously you seem ok with 64 classes before testing and you dont put your mind to looking into possible problems, like class flavour or class viability.

Here is a logical answer to the OP: Yes, after you test all the classes, we have time to make changes.
Here is the answer you gave my PK fearing killer: balance is impossible (you dont say) your question has no merit, players have different ability level, constant improvements.
Is that what you think as a good idea? Not asking questions but instead do constant improvements when it goes live? Look what happenned to ESO code with their constant improvements on stuff that should never clear beta.

I am not even arguing the perfect class balance between 64 classes, before testing. I am asking if there is a plan B and if we have enough time for changes.

Noaani

I've been thinking about this, and I think they already have a backup plan in mind.

If I were in Steven's position and I saw that I couldn't manage 64 unique classes, all I would do is emphasize the 8 classes and that the 64 are sub classes, rather than classes.

I would talk more about whether a player was a Cleric rather than a Necromancer,, purely to get the playerbase used to the notion that they are indeed a Cleric, and can change to any flavor of Cleric.

I'd make a point of joining class balance threads to weigh in to this effect as well.

About the only actual in game change I would make - assuming I were in Steven's position and we couldn't manage 64 unique classes - is to make it slightly easier to change sub classes. Not easy to the point where you can do it at will, but to the point where you don't always need to go to a town, and where players may be able to change classes two or three times a night if the situation dictates.

Alpha Soul

I don't get the impression that they will scrap the class system (although they certainly can) Having 8 classes that can be augmented seems to be the current direction and a good deal of thought has gone into it.

It would really depend I guess on just how exactly "it isn't working" that gets pinpointed on the class system rather than something else.

Nagash

George Black wrote: »

Jahlon wrote: »

So each class has 8 sub-classes since your main is fixed, but your secondary is changeable.

I don't think they are going to just scrap the 8x8 system and come up with 15 classes.

They've already removed 4 main archetypes years ago, so they have worked these numbers on paper for years.

There is a possibility that the 8x8, meaning the 8 classes with 8 augmentation sets might feel empty, with just a handful of them being viable and fun to play, while the rest combos dont perform as expected.

I will take the (a)fighter and (b)rogue classes to make an example:
(a)
Weaponmaster
Dreadnaught
Shadowblade
Hunter
(b)
Duelist
Shadowguardian
Assassin
Predator

Will all the above combos be solid. If not, and only half[4]of the above names are solid, why split strengths and features between 4 names, but instead take those strengths and features into 2 or 1 class to make 2 or 1 viable playstyle instead if 4 non viable.

More Fighter classes
Spellsword
Bladecaller
Highsword
Bladedancer

More Rogue classes
Nightspell
Shadowlord
Cultist
Charlatan

@mrsynth as you see on the original post I didnt do any lazy theory crafting or claim to know what classes will be like, I just asked "if the system doesnt work, do we have time to address it". As for the other topic that you patronized and said "Steven has arleady addressed it, so chill", if the question was never asked it would have never been addressed. Check the date of tge topic, and then check the date of the Dev Update.

Testing phases are for discussion.

@Nagash Necromancer comes from summoner and cleric. Let's examine...

Summoner based classes:
WildBlade
BroodWarden
ShadowMancer
BeastMaster
Spellmancer
Conjurer
Necromancer
Enchanter

Cleric based classes:
Templar
Apostle
ShadowDisciple
Protector
Oracle
Shaman
HighPriest
Scryer

Do you find that Necromancer and the remaining 15 classes above will be viable in combat?
Would you like to see the Necromancers identity and strengths diluted between Shadowmancer, Conjurer, Shadow Disciple if indeed after testing not all combos seem viable?

I will type this here again. Obviously we dont know anything until we test all classes. But once we do, if the system doesnt work, do we have enough time to rebuild it? If I dont ask whether there is a plan B now, when will I? At Beta2?

If no questions are asked during a testing period before the game goes live, then what are we doing here?

I don't really care if its viable I just want to play as a necromancer people should know that about me

Undead Canuck

Are you sure? I was dead certain you would want to be a bard...

Plateau

Wong

leonerdo wrote: »

George Black wrote: »

Is there a plan B if the system receives negative feedback once all classes and their combinations are accessible for testing AND have been tested thoroughly?

Obviously we wont know until we test all the class combinations and weapon playstyles, but we may find that it fails the developers and players expectations.

One idea might be to move away from class combinations and establish 15 or do stand-alone, defined classes, with unique theme*.

Another might be a more strict course with 20 classes, locked weapon selection and shared theme for a few of them.

I guess my main question is, if it doesnt work, is there time to develop a new class system?

*theme has nothing to do with function.
A holy knight is different than a dark knight, but both are tanks.

Warning: The following is entirely speculation!

My assumption is that if Intrepid runs into problems making 64 archetype combinations, they'll just stop making them, and rearrange their designs between the remaining 4-7 sub-classes per archetype. It's not much of a plan B or new system, per se, more like they just stop short on Plan A and focus on fewer classes. The original 64-class diagram would remain in-tact, just with some holes in it now.

For instance, take the Mage class. They can probably make a unique and valuable version of it for Spellstone, Shadow Caster, and Acolyte, since those are fairly different concepts. But what about Arch Wizard, Sorcerer, and Warlock? Can you even tell what secondary archetype those come from? To me it just sounds like 3 different versions of magicky-mage.

So they could reach a point where they run out of unique ideas for all those magicky-augments, and those 3 classes could start overlapping a ton. (They also have to avoid making Mage/Summoner too similar to Summoner/Mage.) Instead of pushing forward and splitting ideas (and balance efforts) between 3 classes, they might decide to scrap Mage+Summoner entirely, and save those ideas for Mage+Mage and Mage+Bard. And maybe some of the summoning-oriented augments can be saved for the Spellmancer (Summoner/Mage) class.

More likely, they just make the subclasses one-at-a-time, and make as many as they can for each beta/release. And they'll fill in the holes when they can. Potentially some of those holes get filled after release. Maybe a few never get filled at all, if the 64-class system doesn't work out like you suggest.

Personally, I suspect that will work out better in the long-run anyways. If they make only ~48 class combinations, we still get plenty of options, and they can avoid most of the egregious overlapping and ensure that each subclass has a unique theme and strengths.

Classes are not supposed to be completely unique iterations of the archetypes though...
A mage + something is still a mage, but with some flavor augments from the 'something'. All classes with a main archetype Mage are mages.

Even if the augments for each secondary archetype are the same for all main archetypes you still have 8 skill kits and not 64.

I know you are just speculating, but i don't really see such a major restructuring of the class system. Not unless something goes terribly wrong with ALL classes.

Damokles

Undead Canuck wrote: »

Are you sure? I was dead certain you would want to be a bard...

You called for me?

Nagash

Undead Canuck wrote: »

Are you sure? I was dead certain you would want to be a bard...

Undead Canuck

I could never sass you, your undying everpowerful Nagashness.

Just imagine though, doing one of the expansive unholy summoning rituals in an operatic voice! You would probably double the summoning power with the acoustics!

Child Item