Meters, why say no?

Now hear me out before you instantly start replying that i'm a toxic elitist who just wants to call others bad. This is an mmorpg. The dungeons are attuned for 8 players, and raids can go up to 40 players. You're saying that meters are toxic and shouldn't be desired at all. But how are you supposed to find the players that could be better helped to learn their class? Example: You're in a 40 man raid that your guild has been up against for about 3-4 weeks and you cant get any progress done on it. Something is wrong, and you cant figure it out. Lets say suddenly you had meters, and you can now see that a handful of your 40 players needed some guidance with their class. With no meters, this would be impossible to figure out. Without meters we're expected to bash our head against a brick wall for god knows how long until people start leaving or quitting the progression due to frustration. I believe the decision to not include meters because it "promotes a toxic elitist behavior" is unjustified and shouldn't be left to the decision of just a couple people. I find that meters can help improve the game by helping your group improve and grow together, which will in return help people enjoy the game to its fullest. If you don't add meters to the game itself, please consider making addons or plugins for meters a non-bannable offense at the very least.

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consultant

noaani wrote: »

consultant wrote: »

How much more toxic a game is with with dps meters vs no dps meters is debatable.

It isn't though.

If someone went to the game forums and saw a post that said someone thinks X class is less suited to a specific thing than Y class, then the player reading that is just as likely to be toxic towards players of X class as if they had a combat tracker.

It isn't a case of "my DPS meter said this" for people when they are acting toxic like that, it is a case of "I think your class sucks". Nothing more, nothing less.

They don't need objective data to back their position up. Subjective data will work fine. Most of these people don't even understand the difference between the two.

As such, these players will be just as toxic with a combat tracker as without one. The only difference between the two is the absence or presence of objective data, and these toxic people will use either objective or subjective data to fuel that toxicity.

The only way to remove subjective data from the game is to not let players think or communicate, and so the only way to remove that toxicity is to not let players think or communicate.

Sounds like a very long way of saying toxic people are going to be toxic regardless of dps meters. Think you had the same theme about people standing in the fire. I could actually could sit here and give you some reasons why not having a dps meter is not going to make to much of a difference like for one thing we are not going to have the instant que experience so people will have tendencey to work with people more vs just trolling on people you will most likely never play with again.

But saying that toxic people will always be toxic, just is not true. You did not say that per say more like objective data (dps meter) and subjective data ....As such, these players will be just as toxic with a combat tracker as without one.. and these toxic people will use either objective or subjective data to fuel that toxicity.
Or with or without a dps meter cause toxic people are toxic. Depends on what type of environment you create.There are games out there were toxic levels are kind of low in camparison to other games so there is a way to creat that environment.

What they are trying to avoid is setting a numerical value to peoples performance Peter said something like They did not want people not playing with other people just because they did not get some numerical dps. Which is all good but real solution is designing the game so dps is not so important so guessing they are going to do that also, will not work otherwise.

Toxic people are a problem in online gaming and is huge issue right now League of Legends is having an open discussion about that, reoccuring issue. The less toxic players you have the better the over all game experience will and think they are trying to approach that problem from different avenues not just dps meters.

Think problem is people are so used to having them as a metric so not having them just seems foreign.
Think they will not be missed much especially if they make a practice area. In another post I said that I only used dps meters on target dummies but actually did use them in live run occassionally.

Caeryl

consultant wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

consultant wrote: »

How much more toxic a game is with with dps meters vs no dps meters is debatable.

It isn't though.

If someone went to the game forums and saw a post that said someone thinks X class is less suited to a specific thing than Y class, then the player reading that is just as likely to be toxic towards players of X class as if they had a combat tracker.

It isn't a case of "my DPS meter said this" for people when they are acting toxic like that, it is a case of "I think your class sucks". Nothing more, nothing less.

They don't need objective data to back their position up. Subjective data will work fine. Most of these people don't even understand the difference between the two.

As such, these players will be just as toxic with a combat tracker as without one. The only difference between the two is the absence or presence of objective data, and these toxic people will use either objective or subjective data to fuel that toxicity.

The only way to remove subjective data from the game is to not let players think or communicate, and so the only way to remove that toxicity is to not let players think or communicate.

Sounds like a very long way of saying toxic people are going to be toxic regardless of dps meters. Think you had the same theme about people standing in the fire. I could actually could sit here and give you some reasons why not having a dps meter is not going to make to much of a difference like for one thing we are not going to have the instant que experience so people will have tendencey to work with people more vs just trolling on people you will most likely never play with again.

But saying that toxic people will always be toxic, just is not true. You did not say that per say more like objective data (dps meter) and subjective data ....As such, these players will be just as toxic with a combat tracker as without one.. and these toxic people will use either objective or subjective data to fuel that toxicity.
Or with or without a dps meter cause toxic people are toxic. Depends on what type of environment you create.There are games out there were toxic levels are kind of low in camparison to other games so there is a way to creat that environment.

What they are trying to avoid is setting a numerical value to peoples performance Peter said something like They did not want people not playing with other people just because they did not get some numerical dps. Which is all good but real solution is designing the game so dps is not so important so guessing they are going to do that also, will not work otherwise.

Toxic people are a problem in online gaming and is huge issue right now League of Legends is having an open discussion about that, reoccuring issue. The less toxic players you have the better the over all game experience will and think they are trying to approach that problem from different avenues not just dps meters.

Think problem is people are so used to having them as a metric so not having them just seems foreign.
Think they will not be missed much especially if they make a practice area. In another post I said that I only used dps meters on target dummies but actually did use them in live run occassionally.

League is so toxic because of the instant queue and lack of meaningful consequences to bad behavior. The same reasons for the toxicity in WoW.

Noaani

Hjerim wrote: »

@noaani What need does a guild have to track that information from its members?
They can keep track of their information themselves, can they not?

Basically what Caeryl said.

A guild is a unit. The idea is that every member works together. The information from one member of the guild is of no value, it is the information of everyone in the guild that is of value.

Part of the suggestion made to Intrepid in this thread - and other threads - means players will be able to see if guilds have taken the combat tracker option before joining any given guild. Thus, if you are a player that is not keen on combat trackers, you can simply look for a guild that doesn't have one. If they are something you are against as a player, you will probably find you would enjoy a guild without that option anyway.

The idea with a combat tracker being a choice is that only guilds that want to be competitive in terms of PvE would opt to take it. These guilds want players that are themselves competitive in PvE, and players that are competitive in PvE almost exclusively use combat trackers and have no issue with them.

Basically, the kind of player that a guild that would choose to use a combat tracker would only be suitable to players that would use a combat tracker. Those players that don't want to use a combat tracker would probably find a better home in a guild that picked a different option.

Noaani

consultant wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

consultant wrote: »

How much more toxic a game is with with dps meters vs no dps meters is debatable.

It isn't though.

If someone went to the game forums and saw a post that said someone thinks X class is less suited to a specific thing than Y class, then the player reading that is just as likely to be toxic towards players of X class as if they had a combat tracker.

It isn't a case of "my DPS meter said this" for people when they are acting toxic like that, it is a case of "I think your class sucks". Nothing more, nothing less.

They don't need objective data to back their position up. Subjective data will work fine. Most of these people don't even understand the difference between the two.

As such, these players will be just as toxic with a combat tracker as without one. The only difference between the two is the absence or presence of objective data, and these toxic people will use either objective or subjective data to fuel that toxicity.

The only way to remove subjective data from the game is to not let players think or communicate, and so the only way to remove that toxicity is to not let players think or communicate.

Sounds like a very long way of saying toxic people are going to be toxic regardless of dps meters. Think you had the same theme about people standing in the fire. I could actually could sit here and give you some reasons why not having a dps meter is not going to make to much of a difference like for one thing we are not going to have the instant que experience so people will have tendencey to work with people more vs just trolling on people you will most likely never play with again.

But saying that toxic people will always be toxic, just is not true. You did not say that per say more like objective data (dps meter) and subjective data ....As such, these players will be just as toxic with a combat tracker as without one.. and these toxic people will use either objective or subjective data to fuel that toxicity.
Or with or without a dps meter cause toxic people are toxic. Depends on what type of environment you create.There are games out there were toxic levels are kind of low in camparison to other games so there is a way to creat that environment.

What they are trying to avoid is setting a numerical value to peoples performance Peter said something like They did not want people not playing with other people just because they did not get some numerical dps. Which is all good but real solution is designing the game so dps is not so important so guessing they are going to do that also, will not work otherwise.

Toxic people are a problem in online gaming and is huge issue right now League of Legends is having an open discussion about that, reoccuring issue. The less toxic players you have the better the over all game experience will and think they are trying to approach that problem from different avenues not just dps meters.

Think problem is people are so used to having them as a metric so not having them just seems foreign.
Think they will not be missed much especially if they make a practice area. In another post I said that I only used dps meters on target dummies but actually did use them in live run occassionally.

I'm a little confused how you can use LoL and that games issue with toxicity to make any kind of claim on combat trackers.

LoL has almost no combat tracker usage - significantly lower than any MMO with competitive PvE could ever hope to have. Yet it still has massive issues with toxic players.

Almost that is sagittarius g is that toxicity and combat trackers are not inherently linked.

I mean, if the most toxic game out there (I don't think many would argue this) doesn't have high combat tracker use, and you were making a game that you didn't want to be toxic, you would probably look at other aspects to see what caused that toxicity - you wouldn't waste your time on something that obviously has no effect on it.

Hjerim

noaani wrote: »

Hjerim wrote: »

@noaani What need does a guild have to track that information from its members?
They can keep track of their information themselves, can they not?

Basically, the kind of player that a guild that would choose to use a combat tracker would only be suitable to players that would use a combat tracker. Those players that don't want to use a combat tracker would probably find a better home in a guild that picked a different option.

Seems like a fine point.
Can't see the harm in that, except that it might discourage PUG raids. If you can see your Guilds statistics but not PUGS, then you wont do a raid with them.
I know that is probably true for you, but it will be the truth for a lot of people.

Noaani

Hjerim wrote: »

Can't see the harm in that, except that it might discourage PUG raids.

I guess how much of an issue you see this being depends on your perspective on what a pick up raid should be used for.

I run pick up groups and raids on nights off from guild activities. Not every night off, but often.

I do this to find players that may be looking to step up in to raid content, but may not know how to do that.

To me, not having the full pick up raid being tracked by a combat tracker will be an inconvenience, but little more than that.

The main reason for this is because the target content of a pick up raid is the low to mid tier raid content - it is never the top end. On low and mid tier raid content, as long as you have the tank, a few healers and a few DPS covered with your combat tracker, you should be able to manage.

The reason I don't think this would be an issue at all is because to me, a pick up raid should be looked at as a tool for recruitment more than anything else. It should not be the type of content players strive to participate in, but rather a stepping stone to regular raid participation.

That could be joining an existing guild, or it could be finding enough people with similar schedule and forming a guild for raiding. Either way, the goal of pick up raids should be to find a guild to join that raids. At least, that is my view on them - and in my experience they are at their best when all players look at them in this light.

Even in pick up raids that I've just gone on as a random raid member rather than in a leadership role - the raid still almost always has a core (tank, a few healers, some DPS and the raid leader) from one guild. If this guild picks the combat tracker option, they should be fine on that same low to mid tier raid content.

I honestly don't think that expecting players to join a guild that fits in with the content they want to run is too much to ask.

I can see an argument for players with friends and family, and wanting to stick together - but to me, that is an argument for a secondary system akin to Archeages Family system more than anything.

AntVictus

Caeryl wrote: »

Lostforever wrote: »

The thing here is gent..gals...>.> people, is that you have your words and your experiences and I have mine I've been that guy that has had to turn away members from raids, or under the one that has had to do it. I've been raiding since I was 12 or 13. I've seen how bad it can get, i've seen what happens, and i've seen some really good raid leads become the most toxic clowns ever. My point here is that no matter what your argument is for dps meters, I can never agree to them. They can in fact create toxicity, and while it isn't widely spread in some instances, it is bad in all of them. I'm not saying I won't play the game or whatever if they decide to change that, I just think that keeping Toxicity as low as possible is better than adding in a system that helps it develop.

This being said I hold no ill will against someone who wants them. I just can't agree with you because of my own experiences.

Also, to whoever asked about 3rd party stuff, I suggest you read the terms. XD Everything is already in place there.

consultant

Actaully LoL does have dpsmeter on target dummies in practice mode. Reason for no eleborate combat trackers is that In LoL it is more about strategy more so than dps. Plus was just saying that toxic people is an on going problem, and was using LoL legends. You guys are taking my state ments and taking them in a different direction.

mazzer

Have damage meters, but don't show the damage. Only how many percents of the damage came from each ability. Something like this:

Explosive Wheelbarrow 45%
Nipple twist 22%
Throw harddrive 12%
Hurl chair 10%
Something else 1%

This way people can still kinda figure out if someone is doing something wrong.

Let's say the raid is stuck progressing because of what feels like lack of damage so the leaders have a look at people's ability stats. They see 7 little Timmy's are only spamming "Hurl chair" and can teach them what rotation they could use to do more damage. Or maybe someones "Nipple twist" should account for XX% of his damage but the number is way less, so is the person using the right buff or combo to boost the ability's damage?

Other similar stats like how many % of their total damage was done to the boss, adds, environment, etc. can also be useful.

This way people can't be toxic to people putting out less amount of damage done, but instead just kinda see where the problem lies.

Sorry if someone suggested this already, it's a long thread and I cannot be bothered reading it all.

Noaani

AntVictus wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Lostforever wrote: »

The thing here is gent..gals...>.> people, is that you have your words and your experiences and I have mine I've been that guy that has had to turn away members from raids, or under the one that has had to do it. I've been raiding since I was 12 or 13. I've seen how bad it can get, i've seen what happens, and i've seen some really good raid leads become the most toxic clowns ever. My point here is that no matter what your argument is for dps meters, I can never agree to them. They can in fact create toxicity, and while it isn't widely spread in some instances, it is bad in all of them. I'm not saying I won't play the game or whatever if they decide to change that, I just think that keeping Toxicity as low as possible is better than adding in a system that helps it develop.

This being said I hold no ill will against someone who wants them. I just can't agree with you because of my own experiences.

Also, to whoever asked about 3rd party stuff, I suggest you read the terms. XD Everything is already in place there.

The combat tracker did not create toxicity.

They may have been a visible factor in some toxic behavior that you have witnessed, but they were not the cause of it.

The cause could have been inexperienced raid leadership, who had expectations beyond what their raid were capable of at the time. They may have expected X level of performance and seen that they only got a fraction of that, and so acted upon that.

This may come across as being a combat tracker leading to toxic behavior, but that raid leader would have eventually found the raid not performing as they wanted when content they wanted and expected to kill wasn't dying.

It may even be thst the players in the guild were just fine, and the raid leader didn't know how to use a combat tracker properly.

The thing with a combat tracker is that it can't lie - it can only tell you what happened. It is still up to the user to make sense of that though

Also, and even more importantly, the actions the guild leadership took were their own decision, and that decision was made independantly of the existance of a combat tracker.

If you have a combat tracker telling you that a number of players are under performing, then you have objective data to show them as much, and a combat tracker as a tool to aid them in reaching the desired performance level.

This can be done in a compassionate manner, if that leadership is mature. If the decision of the guild was anything other than attempting to assist under performing players, that is on them.

The fact that you were raiding at 12 tells me you were probably in a raid that was run by children. I've never been in a raid guild that would allow someone that young to join.

To say the issue there was not the leadership of the guild requires a solid amount of denial when looking back.

Noaani

consultant wrote: »

You guys are taking my state ments and taking them in a different direction.

No, we are taking your statements and pointing out why they are not as relevant as you think.

Yes, toxicity is an issue in online games.

No, combat trackers do not inherently add to that.

Yes, there are things game developers can do to lower this in their game.

No, there is nothing a game like LoL or WoW can do about it now.

Yes, that is becsuse both of those games rely heavily on automated group formation.

No, Ashes will not have automated group forming.

Yes, that means Ashes will automatically have fewer issues with toxicity than those games.

No, that won't change if Ashes has a built in combat tracker.

Plateau

Noaani

leonerdo wrote: »

Oh no, y'all have me ranting about League of Legends again, just I like I did on their forums years ago. I'm relapsing.

I'm glad you did relapse here.

I knew LoL had some in game tracking, but was unaware it was that extensive. All I knew for sure about it was that there are trackers that (through server "hacks") provide players with a live feed of information - and that these tools are exceedingly rare in comparison to similar tools for other MMO's.

Plateau

Noaani

leonerdo wrote: »

Just to be clear though, Riot has taken a very strict stance against anything that helps you in-game at all. So things like cooldowns trackers or macros are not allowed. And they've gone as far as encrypting the entirety of their game client to try and keep people from hacking/botting. (The battle against hackers is never-ending.) So it's not like they're just laissez faire about their game data.

This is why development of some of these tools are now projects for people that are actual experts in specific fields, rather than a decade ago when it was something you could probably figure out after a weekend of teaching yourself Java.

There are some tools made for *** that were made as a challenge by people that don't really even play games - they just wanted to see how hard it would be. Some of the methods used shocked me - mostly in terms of how little protection the game developers had in place for these types of things (note, I am not condoning this kind of thing for any game, including Ashes).

It is absolutely true that attempting to fight hacks and cheats is a never-ending battle - however, that battle is made even harder (and more expensive) if you are including a tool that many players think should be legitimate. This isn't a specific and definite reason to allow things like combat trackers in an MMO as being allowed, but it should be a factor that is taken in to account.

You are also right about any line drawn being arbitrary. There is no way to draw a distinction between different types of assistance without it being completely arbitrary - but that doesn't mean a line shouldn't be drawn somewhere, it is just a case of finding out where makes the most sense for the expected player base (that is more important than what the developer wants, as the player base will get their way in this regard).

I also like the idea of a game where all information is either vague or completely hidden, as you suggest. To me, this would be a great idea to build a game around - but it would need to essentially be the core tenant of the game.

If I were building a game like this, I would make it a single player or cooperative game rather than a competitive game, as blind competition is rarely fun. It also wouldn't be an overly long game - maybe 12 hours worth of game play in total. Any longer than that and I think players would be done with it.

I could also see it being used as a type of side content in a larger MMO - I've always liked the idea of a vast desert area where the games map system is disabled, and the whole thing is essentially randomly generated - the idea being to give the impression that you can never accurately find your way around this desert. it isn't combat information being taken from you, but it is still a lack of information being used to create an interesting piece of side content.

consultant

Now you just basically repeated almost every thing I just posted. Like it or not dps meter contribute to toxicity in MMOs It is debatable on how much it does. You are saying it is not and dps meters do not make a significant contribution to toxicity in games not enough to have them removed. Well another aurguement is the the difference having a dps meter and not having dps meter does not have to much impact on the game itself so it is better to just not have them cause they can lead to people being toxic.

Personally would like to see dps meters in game posted for them on another thread for a long time, but not going to pretend or say that Ashes if Creation does have a legitament reason for not having them. That would be a lie. I do not like their decision but know why they made. In a nutshell a lot of peoples post that are really long come to.....Dps meters are not toxic it is the people that are toxic.

This is a repost but kind of wondering what type of criteria is going to be used in competative raiding. What are going to be the stats used to figure out the leaderboards. Guild rankings. They also said no parses. That is the only real problem I see. Think that is a legitament concern. Just saying dps meters are not toxic it is the people that are toxic in a very long and intelligent way....well it is still the same thing.

Caeryl

consultant wrote: »

Now you just basically repeated almost every thing I just posted. Like it or not dps meter contribute to toxicity in MMOs It is debatable on how much it does. You are saying it is not and dps meters do not make a significant contribution to toxicity in games not enough to have them removed. Well another aurguement is the the difference having a dps meter and not having dps meter does not have to much impact on the game itself so it is better to just not have them cause they can lead to people being toxic.

Personally would like to see dps meters in game posted for them on another thread for a long time, but not going to pretend or say that Ashes if Creation does have a legitament reason for not having them. That would be a lie. I do not like their decision but know why they made. In a nutshell a lot of peoples post that are really long come to.....Dps meters are not toxic it is the people that are toxic.

This is a repost but kind of wondering what type of criteria is going to be used in competative raiding. What are going to be the stats used to figure out the leaderboards. Guild rankings. They also said no parses. That is the only real problem I see. Think that is a legitament concern. Just saying dps meters are not toxic it is the people that are toxic in a very long and intelligent way....well it is still the same thing.

Combat tracking is required to gather objective data about fights in an efficient, reliable way.

That’s extremely important to a game and has a massive impact on how player approach content.

Toxicity is primarily caused by a lack of consequences and a lack of community dependence. It’s neither caused nor made worse by objective data.

The surefire way to ensure your game is a toxic cesspit? A random group finder.

grisu

@leonerdo League used the Tribunal before machine learning. Imo that was the best they have ever been. Everyone could vote on what is ok and where to draw the line. No one was overly sensitive and no one got away for saying in chat they will troll this ranked game.
The Tribunal was player driven, it had no moderators.
Out of boredom I kept track of people I encountered that actively promote in chat they will int I and I can say, now a lot of them just keep on playing.

There are other factors contributing to it like smurfing and basically a 0 consequence line. You can just make a new account with the same email you just got banned on, but that existed before too and yet I was rarely ever frustrated or shocked at how people behave in Season 2-4 while the tribunal existed compared to now.
Before it was a rare event. Now it's progressed to a common sight.
It's deinstalled again for 2 months now. I just can't deal with that level of absurdity for too long.

Noaani

consultant wrote: »

This is a repost but kind of wondering what type of criteria is going to be used in competative raiding. What are going to be the stats used to figure out the leaderboards. Guild rankings.

I don't see any reason why these leaderboards need to exist. it's a cheesy method to give players a reason to feel obligated to stay in the game longer than they would otherwise, and I would hope Steven is above this kind of tactic.

To me, the only competition I need in raiding is who is killing contested encounters the most.

Lostforever

AntVictus wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Lostforever wrote: »

The thing here is gent..gals...>.> people, is that you have your words and your experiences and I have mine I've been that guy that has had to turn away members from raids, or under the one that has had to do it. I've been raiding since I was 12 or 13. I've seen how bad it can get, i've seen what happens, and i've seen some really good raid leads become the most toxic clowns ever. My point here is that no matter what your argument is for dps meters, I can never agree to them. They can in fact create toxicity, and while it isn't widely spread in some instances, it is bad in all of them. I'm not saying I won't play the game or whatever if they decide to change that, I just think that keeping Toxicity as low as possible is better than adding in a system that helps it develop.

This being said I hold no ill will against someone who wants them. I just can't agree with you because of my own experiences.

Also, to whoever asked about 3rd party stuff, I suggest you read the terms. XD Everything is already in place there.

This is fair enough and we are not going to change each others mind on the internet. We have different experiences which leads us to different conclusions but thank you for discussion your ideas

However I hope that the dev listens to my ideas

Child Item