How would you create a deep and engaging combat system

I would personally love to have an ability kit for each archtype that allows me to be creative. I would also want it to be deep enough so I feel that I have not mastered my class after a short time. I want to feel that for each 10 hours I put into my class, im always improving and perfecting my ability to manage my toolkit. For me, It should be very hard to maximize your archtypes abilities. Mastery over your class should be something you work towards and become proud of, not something that should be achived after reading an optimal rotation guide and practicing for 2 hours.

Obviously, all content should not require you to be a master or very proficient in your class. But the option to actually dig deeper into your rotation and toolkit, practice your class and use this knowledge and experience to tackle an exceptionally hard challenge is very important to me.

One way to do this would be for AoC to design a deep ability system that works for casual players but shines when you put some dedication into it.

Your characters different abilities, when combined with other abilities you choose could creates new and interesting effects. For example, your "Cone of air that usually slows people" now knocks people down when used on an icy surface you created. Or that rainfall ability that usually only heals people become a cloud of steam when calling down a firestorm on it, protecting you and your party from projectiles.

By designing our toolkits in a deep way, by letting our normal abilities form something unique and interesting when tied togheter, we get a combat system that is much more than simple cookie-cutter rotations. A toolkit consiting of 10 abilities could be used in hundreds of ways instead of 1 single optimal way.

I am very interested how you would make the combat in AoC deep, interesting, unique and engaging? Maybe someone will be able to help enchance IS:s current plans for AoC combat!

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Selo

Ive played mmorpgs since Meridian and what ive noticed in the more recent mmorpgs is that they try to reinvent the wheel with combat systems when its not really needed.
Alot of vocal people want this and that, "active blocking" "headshot arrows", full loot etc.
It sounds very nice on paper, and ive seen the same arguments in mmorpg after mmorpg.
But its not really that fun in game, and people tend to want to go back to the basics.
The system that has been most succesful in pretty much every mmorpg that has survived for more than one year is the basic tab target and block/dodge/evade etc linked to skills rather than pressing a specific button.
Its the system that works the best for the masses and if AoC wants to be succesful its the way they should go.

On a sidenote i was thinking the other day after watching the latest gameplay videos, about the active attack that you can mash.
Many players want to maximize damage, and it would be really crap if you want to maximise dmg, even as a mage, you have to stand in melee, weaving in those attacks.
In my opinion, they can remove those attacks alltogether and focus more on skill attacks.

Ventharien

Selo wrote: »

Ive played mmorpgs since Meridian and what ive noticed in the more recent mmorpgs is that they try to reinvent the wheel with combat systems when its not really needed.
Alot of vocal people want this and that, "active blocking" "headshot arrows", full loot etc.
It sounds very nice on paper, and ive seen the same arguments in mmorpg after mmorpg.
But its not really that fun in game, and people tend to want to go back to the basics.
The system that has been most succesful in pretty much every mmorpg that has survived for more than one year is the basic tab target and block/dodge/evade etc linked to skills rather than pressing a specific button.
Its the system that works the best for the masses and if AoC wants to be succesful its the way they should go.

On a sidenote i was thinking the other day after watching the latest gameplay videos, about the active attack that you can mash.
Many players want to maximize damage, and it would be really crap if you want to maximise dmg, even as a mage, you have to stand in melee, weaving in those attacks.
In my opinion, they can remove those attacks alltogether and focus more on skill attacks.

The problem is, people might not want to have the wheel reinvented, but a large group has noticed the system that has been used for pretty much everything has become stale and route. People have gone back to these games because when something comes around to try and shake things up, they usually fail at the surrounding systems. People will only forgive so much for a novel, even superior, single system.

mcstackerson

Selo wrote: »

Ive played mmorpgs since Meridian and what ive noticed in the more recent mmorpgs is that they try to reinvent the wheel with combat systems when its not really needed.
Alot of vocal people want this and that, "active blocking" "headshot arrows", full loot etc.
It sounds very nice on paper, and ive seen the same arguments in mmorpg after mmorpg.
But its not really that fun in game, and people tend to want to go back to the basics.
The system that has been most succesful in pretty much every mmorpg that has survived for more than one year is the basic tab target and block/dodge/evade etc linked to skills rather than pressing a specific button.
Its the system that works the best for the masses and if AoC wants to be succesful its the way they should go.

I think the biggest problem with this argument is the sample size and the fact the, in general, new MMOs don't last. You would have a better argument if we had a steady flow of MMOs and could point out that the tab ones were more successful but that isn't the case.

Everyone is returning to the same old MMOs. New ones "fail" regardless of if they are tab or action which means that the system alone isn't the issue.

I also think there is some evidence that challenges this argument if we look at other rpgs and games outside of MMOs. If you look at those games, there are plenty of them that are successful using a more free/action system.

The way I see it, Tab is a system that was created when developers were trying to adapt turn-based combat systems to be more active. It's the same targeting system as the old turn-based games but now your abilities would become available in real-time as you move around in a 3d environment.

"Action" combat is the next step in creating an active combat system. It's the natural progression of the tab system that removes the targeting requirements and allows players to freely aim their abilities, giving the player more control over their character.

Noaani

@mcstackerson
There are two reasons action combat works better in single player games than in MMO's.

The first is that in a single player game, developers can account for the fact that only about 10%of the population are actually physically able to have the type of reactions a game like this needs in under 0.1 seconds. They can easily make it so a person with reactions of this type that take 0.25 or even 0.4 seconds are still able to beat the game.

In an MMO though, slow reactions get you killed. This basically immediately blocks people with more than 0.2 second reactions from playing at the top end in a purely action combat game.

This isn't trained reactions I am talking about either - it is the fastest some people are actually able to see a thing, process it and then react.

The second reason is that action combat doesn't perform very well when you have multiple people fighting the same target.

When you are fighting someone in an action game, and every move knocks the target back a bit and you move up to meet them, it feels responsive, impactful... good.

When you do that with others around, all you are doing g is pushing the target past your rogue as they was about to backstab it, or push the target out of range of your images, and move yourself out of range of your healers. Sure, one person may be having fun, but everyone else is just getting pissed off.

On the other hand, if your a tank playing an action combat game and you and your target are both stationary, you are probably not having a good time.

This is why action combat games tend to focus more on PvP, the bigger the focus on action combat, the bigger the focus on PvP.

The idea of a pure action combat MMO with a PvE focus is almost laughable.

I'm on record as being pro-tab target combat, but there is no way I would play a single player game with that combat. I am pro-tab because I am pro-PvE, specifically top end PvE, and pure action combat simply isn't going to ever work there. A toned down action combat system (like ESO) could work in top end PvE, but even a BDO style action combat system won't work for 20+ player top end PvE.

This is the main reason tab target MMO'are always going to be more popular - it isn't the combat system, it is the fact that this is where the good PvE is at.

I could go on at length about how limits on people's reaction timesplays a part. Or how the fact that tab target is easy to get in but has a long tail to master it, while action is harder to get in to and then has almost no further depth to it also plays a part. But while both of these are factors, they pale in comparison to the fact that action combat is better for PvP, and tab is better for PvE - and most people will make a decision based on PvP/PvE before they even consider action/tab.

darthaden

Imo even more important then the combat system is the AI and combat variety. Black Desert has one of the most unique and fun combat systems I've ever seen in a mmo.......which is completely ruined by mind numbingly generic mobs that require zero thought to overcome. I want mobs with a variety of attacks, crowd control moves, and even levels of aggression. The tactics that work for taking down a bear should not necessarily work for taking down a human mob.

Wandering Mist

noaani wrote: »

@mcstackerson
There are two reasons action combat works better in single player games than in MMO's.

The first is that in a single player game, developers can account for the fact that only about 10%of the population are actually physically able to have the type of reactions a game like this needs in under 0.1 seconds. They can easily make it so a person with reactions of this type that take 0.25 or even 0.4 seconds are still able to beat the game.

In an MMO though, slow reactions get you killed. This basically immediately blocks people with more than 0.2 second reactions from playing at the top end in a purely action combat game.

This isn't trained reactions I am talking about either - it is the fastest some people are actually able to see a thing, process it and then react.

The second reason is that action combat doesn't perform very well when you have multiple people fighting the same target.

When you are fighting someone in an action game, and every move knocks the target back a bit and you move up to meet them, it feels responsive, impactful... good.

When you do that with others around, all you are doing g is pushing the target past your rogue as they was about to backstab it, or push the target out of range of your images, and move yourself out of range of your healers. Sure, one person may be having fun, but everyone else is just getting pissed off.

On the other hand, if your a tank playing an action combat game and you and your target are both stationary, you are probably not having a good time.

This is why action combat games tend to focus more on PvP, the bigger the focus on action combat, the bigger the focus on PvP.

The idea of a pure action combat MMO with a PvE focus is almost laughable.

I'm on record as being pro-tab target combat, but there is no way I would play a single player game with that combat. I am pro-tab because I am pro-PvE, specifically top end PvE, and pure action combat simply isn't going to ever work there. A toned down action combat system (like ESO) could work in top end PvE, but even a BDO style action combat system won't work for 20+ player top end PvE.

This is the main reason tab target MMO'are always going to be more popular - it isn't the combat system, it is the fact that this is where the good PvE is at.

I could go on at length about how limits on people's reaction timesplays a part. Or how the fact that tab target is easy to get in but has a long tail to master it, while action is harder to get in to and then has almost no further depth to it also plays a part. But while both of these are factors, they pale in comparison to the fact that action combat is better for PvP, and tab is better for PvE - and most people will make a decision based on PvP/PvE before they even consider action/tab.

I think it's more complex than "action combat doesn't work in PvE content". After all, Monster Hunter World is almost entirely action combat PvE.

Tacualeon

George Black wrote: »

@Wandering Mist
I heard on the devs update that active shield block is hard to implement.
I dont understand why they said something like that.

Action block= code weapon on weapon
Reactive block= animation lock in place, not very MM friendly for the two locked in place.

My perfect combat sistem is:
-Fluid and good biomechanical animations.
-Action target.
-Skirmish oriented with friendly fire anti zerg.
PvP with 3v3 and 5v5 as the core allows individuality while still having the big picture present.
3-5 are the platoons of gaming.
There might be more than 10 people fighting, but you can still get your small groups of friends for some teamfights.

-60% cdr management.
40% mechanics (varies with classes)
Presicion
Shield Block
Weapon Parry
Dodge Roll

-Skirmish open world/battleground centric.
-Skills and talent with clear pros and cons. Meaningful decisions.
-Few "jack of all trades" "generalist" skills and clases. Most clases have to be specialized and with risks.
There was a quote on one GDC talk "If players can, they will make efficient their fun" and make risk free characters.

Wandering Mist

Tacualeon wrote: »

George Black wrote: »

@Wandering Mist
I heard on the devs update that active shield block is hard to implement.
I dont understand why they said something like that.

Action block= code weapon on weapon
Reactive block= animation lock in place, not very MM friendly for the two locked in place.

My perfect combat sistem is:
-Fluid and good biomechanical animations.
-Action target.
-Skirmish oriented with friendly fire anti zerg.
PvP with 3v3 and 5v5 as the core allows individuality while still having the big picture present.
3-5 are the platoons of gaming.
There might be more than 10 people fighting, but you can still get your small groups of friends for some teamfights.

-60% cdr management.
40% mechanics (varies with classes)
Presicion
Shield Block
Weapon Parry
Dodge Roll

-Skirmish open world/battleground centric.
-Skills and talent with clear pros and cons. Meaningful decisions.
-Few "jack of all trades" "generalist" skills and clases. Most clases have to be specialized and with risks.
There was a quote on one GDC talk "If players can, they will make efficient their fun" and make risk free characters.

Talking about animation locking reminds me of a video about the parry animations in Dark Souls games.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7GNAaVo9uc

It's well worth looking into if that kind of this interests you. What is important is that when you parry an attack in Dark Souls and then hit the riposte command, both the mob and the player's character will snap into the proper positions for the synced riposte animation. You can do this just fine in a single player environment but it doesn't work nearly so well in a a multiplayer setting.

Jesforart

Please build a skill that blocks. Give us the ability to dodge once in any direction.

One thing i noticed about your game world is how big it is, but as a character, i just dont feel close enough to my character to feel the mass.

When Steve played, in the Pre-Alpha 4K showcase, the camera was locked in the perfect position, i actually wanted it to feel closer.

I recently played a game called Control, and its combat was so simple. In that game, you didnt have the ability to dodge attacks, you had to collect an item that gave you the ability to hold a block button. That would allow you to re-position your attack.

The enemy AI, in Control felt like real players, because they surrounded you, and they never stopped their advancement in trying to take your character down, you had to constantly think and move fast, because their strategy was to corner your character.

I wish more game companies would invest into researching controller play.

The flashiness of all the attacks, are to bright and magnificent for my eyes, my lights are on, but its really hard to make out whats really going on.

Thank you so much for adding more enemy spawns to fights.

🖐🏾

Noaani

Wandering Mist wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

There are two reasons action combat works better in single player games than in MMO's.

The first is that in a single player game, developers can account for the fact that only about 10%of the population are actually physically able to have the type of reactions a game like this needs in under 0.1 seconds. They can easily make it so a person with reactions of this type that take 0.25 or even 0.4 seconds are still able to beat the game.

In an MMO though, slow reactions get you killed. This basically immediately blocks people with more than 0.2 second reactions from playing at the top end in a purely action combat game.

This isn't trained reactions I am talking about either - it is the fastest some people are actually able to see a thing, process it and then react.

The second reason is that action combat doesn't perform very well when you have multiple people fighting the same target.

When you are fighting someone in an action game, and every move knocks the target back a bit and you move up to meet them, it feels responsive, impactful... good.

When you do that with others around, all you are doing g is pushing the target past your rogue as they was about to backstab it, or push the target out of range of your images, and move yourself out of range of your healers. Sure, one person may be having fun, but everyone else is just getting pissed off.

On the other hand, if your a tank playing an action combat game and you and your target are both stationary, you are probably not having a good time.

This is why action combat games tend to focus more on PvP, the bigger the focus on action combat, the bigger the focus on PvP

The idea of a pure action combat MMO with a PvE focus is almost laughable.

I'm on record as being pro-tab target combat, but there is no way I would play a single player game with that combat. I am pro-tab because I am pro-PvE, specifically top end PvE, and pure action combat simply isn't going to ever work there. A toned down action combat system (like ESO) could work in top end PvE, but even a BDO style action combat system won't work for 20+ player top end PvE.

This is the main reason tab target MMO'are always going to be more popular - it isn't the combat system, it is the fact that this is where the good PvE is at.

I could go on at length about how limits on people's reaction timesplays a part. Or how the fact that tab target is easy to get in but has a long tail to master it, while action is harder to get in to and then has almost no further depth to it also plays a part. But while both of these are factors, they pale in comparison to the fact that action combat is better for PvP, and tab is better for PvE - and most people will make a decision based on PvP/PvE before they even consider action/tab.

I think it's more complex than "action combat doesn't work in PvE content". After all, Monster Hunter World is almost entirely action combat PvE.

Oh, it absolutely is more complex than that - but you can say that about any discussion not at a PhD level.

I've not played Monster Hunter, so I don't know much about it's combat system. My understanding is that it is best described as "action combat lite", but I may well be wrong there.

That is also why ESO has some ok PvE content (being generous). It is action combat, but a very light version of it. All the things that conflict with PvE in action combat have basically been stripped out of it, and if it weren't for the free aiming in that game, it perhaps wouldn't be called action combat by anyone.

This is where I do think Ashes stands to do something other games haven't. Having a hybrid system means that people can build up a character for PvP, with all the action combat they want, and the movement, and impactfulness that they want. But then players can (and will) switch to a tab target based build for PvE content, in order to be in a position to be able to better work with 39 other players.

There obviously will be some cross over with this - because it is more complex than that - but generally speaking the fact that Ashes has hybrid combat to me means it could well be the only game that has actual good PvE as well as actual good PvP.

Tacualeon

Wandering Mist wrote: »

It's well worth looking into if that kind of this interests you. What is important is that when you parry an attack in Dark Souls and then hit the riposte command, both the mob and the player's character will snap into the proper positions for the synced riposte animation. You can do this just fine in a single player environment but it doesn't work nearly so well in a a multiplayer setting.

I was thinking in the exact same video when I responded!!

noaani wrote: »

There obviously will be some cross over with this - because it is more complex than that - but generally speaking the fact that Ashes has hybrid combat to me means it could well be the only game that has actual good PvE as well as actual good PvP.

I think pve allows people to choose the pace. Pvp puts you under stress and players needs downtime in the gameplay loop.

Wandering Mist

noaani wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

There are two reasons action combat works better in single player games than in MMO's.

The first is that in a single player game, developers can account for the fact that only about 10%of the population are actually physically able to have the type of reactions a game like this needs in under 0.1 seconds. They can easily make it so a person with reactions of this type that take 0.25 or even 0.4 seconds are still able to beat the game.

In an MMO though, slow reactions get you killed. This basically immediately blocks people with more than 0.2 second reactions from playing at the top end in a purely action combat game.

This isn't trained reactions I am talking about either - it is the fastest some people are actually able to see a thing, process it and then react.

The second reason is that action combat doesn't perform very well when you have multiple people fighting the same target.

When you are fighting someone in an action game, and every move knocks the target back a bit and you move up to meet them, it feels responsive, impactful... good.

When you do that with others around, all you are doing g is pushing the target past your rogue as they was about to backstab it, or push the target out of range of your images, and move yourself out of range of your healers. Sure, one person may be having fun, but everyone else is just getting pissed off.

On the other hand, if your a tank playing an action combat game and you and your target are both stationary, you are probably not having a good time.

This is why action combat games tend to focus more on PvP, the bigger the focus on action combat, the bigger the focus on PvP

The idea of a pure action combat MMO with a PvE focus is almost laughable.

I'm on record as being pro-tab target combat, but there is no way I would play a single player game with that combat. I am pro-tab because I am pro-PvE, specifically top end PvE, and pure action combat simply isn't going to ever work there. A toned down action combat system (like ESO) could work in top end PvE, but even a BDO style action combat system won't work for 20+ player top end PvE.

This is the main reason tab target MMO'are always going to be more popular - it isn't the combat system, it is the fact that this is where the good PvE is at.

I could go on at length about how limits on people's reaction timesplays a part. Or how the fact that tab target is easy to get in but has a long tail to master it, while action is harder to get in to and then has almost no further depth to it also plays a part. But while both of these are factors, they pale in comparison to the fact that action combat is better for PvP, and tab is better for PvE - and most people will make a decision based on PvP/PvE before they even consider action/tab.

I think it's more complex than "action combat doesn't work in PvE content". After all, Monster Hunter World is almost entirely action combat PvE.

Oh, it absolutely is more complex than that - but you can say that about any discussion not at a PhD level.

I've not played Monster Hunter, so I don't know much about it's combat system. My understanding is that it is best described as "action combat lite", but I may well be wrong there.

That is also why ESO has some ok PvE content (being generous). It is action combat, but a very light version of it. All the things that conflict with PvE in action combat have basically been stripped out of it, and if it weren't for the free aiming in that game, it perhaps wouldn't be called action combat by anyone.

This is where I do think Ashes stands to do something other games haven't. Having a hybrid system means that people can build up a character for PvP, with all the action combat they want, and the movement, and impactfulness that they want. But then players can (and will) switch to a tab target based build for PvE content, in order to be in a position to be able to better work with 39 other players.

There obviously will be some cross over with this - because it is more complex than that - but generally speaking the fact that Ashes has hybrid combat to me means it could well be the only game that has actual good PvE as well as actual good PvP.

Regarding Monster Hunter World, when you are using melee weapons I would consider it to be purely action combat. However, there is lock-on targeting for ranged weapons which could be classed as tab target. One thing that I think helps MHW is that you are typically fighting against large creatures in small teams (2-5 people), and each weapon has a different role to play.

For example, if you are using the Hammer you will usually stand directly in front of the monsters bashing their heads in to stun them, whereas if you are using a greatsword you will likely be at the back attempting to cut off the monster's tail. Given how large the monsters are, this kind of design allows players to spread out and not get in each other's way during combat.

Of course, this is the theory behind it but not everyone who plays understands this. But then again can we blame the system for the player's incompetence?

Selo

I dont think Monster Hunter World, or Dauntless etc are good examples when it comes to mmorpgs.
Those games are small hub based mmorpgs where you only fight with a very small group and dont see anyone else.
Those type of games have their own place, but its not in the mmorpg genre.

Caeryl

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Of course, this is the theory behind it but not everyone who plays understands this. But then again can we blame the system for the player's incompetence?

Never underestimate the power of players to blame their shortcomings on the game

Noaani

Caeryl wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Of course, this is the theory behind it but not everyone who plays understands this. But then again can we blame the system for the player's incompetence?

Never underestimate the power of players to blame their shortcomings on the game

This was basically the reply I was going to give.

It is seldom appropriate to blame a game if people don't understand, but that doesn't stop the people that don't understand from trying to do exactly that.

In terms of MHW (as the cool kids seem to call it), the way it seems designed circumvents the issues I see with action combat in a raid setting - but not in any way that can be carried over to an actual MMORPG raid.

With only 5 people against an opponent, there is little risk of player collision being an issue. With 20 melee characters in a raid of 40, that is going to be an issue.

With ranged combat essentially being tab target (probably where my understanding of the game being action lite comes from) the issue of the tank knocking the target all over the place is mostly taken out of the equation as well, though in an MMO, rogues would still take issue with it (as would mages in fights where being at max range is important).

In terms of it being more complex than just "action = PvR, tab = PvE", I can absolutely see action combat being fine for groups of 8. It is only when you get to 20 player raids that I see issues really starting to form (which, honestly, is the only PvE I really care about). What I don't see happening is a 40 player raid with pure action combat, without that action combat having to have had so much stripped out of it that it is barely recognizable.

mcstackerson

noaani wrote: »

@mcstackerson
There are two reasons action combat works better in single player games than in MMO's.

The first is that in a single player game, developers can account for the fact that only about 10%of the population are actually physically able to have the type of reactions a game like this needs in under 0.1 seconds. They can easily make it so a person with reactions of this type that take 0.25 or even 0.4 seconds are still able to beat the game.

In an MMO though, slow reactions get you killed. This basically immediately blocks people with more than 0.2 second reactions from playing at the top end in a purely action combat game.

This isn't trained reactions I am talking about either - it is the fastest some people are actually able to see a thing, process it and then react.

The second reason is that action combat doesn't perform very well when you have multiple people fighting the same target.

When you are fighting someone in an action game, and every move knocks the target back a bit and you move up to meet them, it feels responsive, impactful... good.

When you do that with others around, all you are doing g is pushing the target past your rogue as they was about to backstab it, or push the target out of range of your images, and move yourself out of range of your healers. Sure, one person may be having fun, but everyone else is just getting pissed off.

On the other hand, if your a tank playing an action combat game and you and your target are both stationary, you are probably not having a good time.

This is why action combat games tend to focus more on PvP, the bigger the focus on action combat, the bigger the focus on PvP.

The idea of a pure action combat MMO with a PvE focus is almost laughable.

I'm on record as being pro-tab target combat, but there is no way I would play a single player game with that combat. I am pro-tab because I am pro-PvE, specifically top end PvE, and pure action combat simply isn't going to ever work there. A toned down action combat system (like ESO) could work in top end PvE, but even a BDO style action combat system won't work for 20+ player top end PvE.

This is the main reason tab target MMO'are always going to be more popular - it isn't the combat system, it is the fact that this is where the good PvE is at.

I could go on at length about how limits on people's reaction timesplays a part. Or how the fact that tab target is easy to get in but has a long tail to master it, while action is harder to get in to and then has almost no further depth to it also plays a part. But while both of these are factors, they pale in comparison to the fact that action combat is better for PvP, and tab is better for PvE - and most people will make a decision based on PvP/PvE before they even consider action/tab.

On your reaction argument, I don't think it takes more time to react to things in an action game vs a tab game but if people really need more time to react to things, developers can give them more time. They are already tailoring the fight so you can react, if they need to give players more time to react then they can do it

My counter-argument is that I don't think it is the case that it requires someone to take more time to react in a tab game vs an action game.

I can think of two scenarios, one where you have to react to something your target is doing and one you have to react to what something else is doing.

If you are reacting to something your target is doing then in both free aim and tab system, all you need to do is press the button of the skill you want to react with or move. Neither system requires more out of the user.

If you are reacting to something you aren't targeting then in a tab system, you must look at your target, target them, and use the skill you want to use to react. the quickest thing you could do is have some kind of focus/assist macro set up to target and then press the button. Still two actions unless we are able to macro skills together, at which point you approach skill bar bloat which is something i'm against. I don't enjoy having 3+ buttons that do the same skill on different targets but that's me.

If you are reacting to another target in a free aim system then all you have to do is look at the target you are reacting to and press the button. Simply move the mouse and press the button. Designers can obviously make this more demanding if they want by tighting up aiming requirements but they can also make it relatively easy. It's one of the things i like about fee aim, you can create a variety of abilities that require different levels of skill to use. This adds extra depth to the combat that i enjoy.

Your second "push back" argument isn't an argument as that isn't necessary for an action/free aim system.

Free aim/action is about how you deliver your skills to your target.

It's cool if you like tab and prefer it but if you can't imagine action combat in a pve MMO then you don't have a good imagination.

Tab games aren't the most popular games. Old MMOs that use tab are the most popular MMOs but back to my argument, we don't have new tab MMOs coming out and succeeding. If tab was the recipe for success then we would see new ones coming out and succeeding but instead we are in a market where games seem to fail whether they are tab or not.

I still don't think your reaction argument is an argument as developers can tailor the fight. That said I'm also unsure if it's even true if it takes more time to react to something in the different systems. @noaani Message me if you want to put it to the test. I was thinking we could load up some different MMOs with both tab and action systems and get a feel for how long it takes to react to different situations. We could meet in the Ashes discord some time and play around.

Noaani

mcstackerson wrote: »

It's cool if you like tab and prefer it but if you can't imagine action combat in a pve MMO then you don't have a good imagination.

Just for completions sake, I'll restate my opinion on this matter.

There are no action combat based MMO's that have successfully implemented more than 20 player raid content in to the game in a manner where the raid content itself is the goal - as opposed to the raid being there as a catalyst for PvP.

The above is a material fact, and is not really up for debate. My theory goes towards trying to explain this, and is as follows; action combat as proponents of action combat want it to be is not conductive to this type of content.

Developers wanting to implement these two things in to one game have to find a way to compromise. The first way they could look at this is to add somewhat interesting PvE content, but make the games action combat system essentially action combat lite (ESO). The second way is that they could attempt to keep the action combat system mostly in tact, but neuter the PvE content to the point where it becomes uninteresting to take on (Archeage). The third thing a developer could do is leave the action combat system essentially untouched, and basically not even bother with PvE content (BDO).

Now, you could attempt to prove this theory wrong, but that would be the wrong way to go about things. What you should be doing is providing another explination as to why action combat and raiding have never been successfully combined in one MMO - as even if you did disprove my above theory, the fact would still remain that these two things have never been successfully combined.

What I can say is that it is not a lack of demand from players of those games. My entire time in Archeage, there was a more consistent cry from players for actual PvE content than anything else. BDO players are always complaining that there is only one spot in the whole game that is worth PvE farming. Players want this kind of content, but game develoeprs have not managed to deliver it - for almost a decade now.

mcstackerson wrote: »

On your reaction argument, I don't think it takes more time to react to things in an action game vs a tab game but if people really need more time to react to things, developers can give them more time.

It doesn't need to take more time, you are completely correct in that.

However, most proponents of an action combat system would not like a system where player a player with faster reactions is not at a significant advantage. As a tab target proferred player, even I wouldn't advocate for this - it straight up isn't what action combat is about.

This is less about what is and is not possible and more about what proponents of action combat and tab combat want from each combat system type. Most action combat proponents would place player reactions as one of the most important aspect of action combat - you can't remove the need for this to be there and keep action combat proponents happy.

mcstackerson

I feel like you are just taking me down pointless arguments but i'll bite.

A lot of MMOs have moved away from raids larger than 20 but even with that, this statement isn't true. Wildstar successfully implemented 40 man raids. Yes, the game ended up failing but it had the end game raiding was there and worked.

Guild wars 2 also has a lot of action mechanics and has large group pve content but i'm guessing that doesn't count because that content isn't necessarily the focus?

Action combat is not as hard as you think it is and at this point, more people probably have experience with action systems then tab systems.

They could just not neuter anything. Implement whatever pve content you think is hard and make any minor adjustments that are necessary.

The reason we haven't seen a lot of action MMOs with large group pve content is that we haven't seen a lot of MMOs recently. They were in style for a while but they are large investments and with the number of them that fail, big companies have stopped trying.

Just because game developers haven't created something yet doesn't mean it can't be created. Do you really lack the imagination to figure out how to translate mechanics from a tab game to an action setting? You are saying something is not possible, do you really believe no one will ever be able to do it?

But if you really think this is impossible then maybe we need to challenge the ashes devs to do the impossible. Are you saying that this is something they can't do? According to you, they would be doing the impossible if they did accomplish it.

Once again, I challenge you to meet me in discord and we can test your reaction speed argument. See if it really takes me more time to press a button in an action game over a tab game as well as explore how things are different. I was thinking of downloading Tera and ESO for the action game examples, do you have any other recommendations?

George_Black

Stick with Tera plz.
Inspire people with thay awesome combat system

Jesforart

Here are some pros and cons that me and some friends discussed about Tab-Targeting versus Action Combat.

Action Combat Pros:
• Makes the player feel more in-grained into the game

• Requires a level of skill to Master a Class

• Works great for PvP and WvW content

• If done well, action combat could improve any game's animation system by creating stagger ( who doesn't want to see that their combo has altered the enemies animated state)

• Enemy bosses can truly be created with a diversified combat system

• Can really diversify gameplay for specific classes (Ex. Warriors play differently from Healers)

• Can easily help new players or veteran players decipher between whos good at the game and whos not.

Action Combat Cons:
• Really hard to balance skills across all classes; not only will the numbers behind skills need to balanced, but the animation itself could possibly need to change (just think about GW2's PvP system; currently its still in a state of mayhem)

• If not done well, Metas could be established, that could easily steamroll bosses

• In PvE regular mobs are easily steamrolled because the AI combat system doesnt account for a full set of skills (enemies can't regularly heal, interrupt, or perform special attacks because the teams might be limited in resources)

• Usually players have a hard time adapting to such a system

Tab-Targetting System Pros:
• It easies a new player in to a mmo

• It helps to clearly define roles

• It allows the player to play with robust customization in choosing skill trees

• Easier to balance

• Easier to recycle key animations

• Skills are more identifiable

• Resource Friendly

Tab-Targetting System Cons:
• Produces Rigor-Mortis and monotony

• Has there every been any good Tab-Targetting gameplay for PvP

• It can make any character feel like a carbon copy of another player (im not into Role Playing)

• In my experience, Tab-Targetting is too easy.

Im not a professional game developer and i really tried my best to be unbiased. My interest were piqued when Steven started talking about the Military node during Jahlon's livestream. If the military nodes kingship is decided upon with combat, do you really believe that Tab-Targetting will be utilized within that node system? How do you introduce skillful play into such a system?

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