Archetypes and roles

Well first of all let me talk about roles in general. Well one of the things that should want to consider when making a class is the shelf life of that class. Or how long can a player play a class before he gets bored of it. Now there different things that come into play like skill shots, number of abilities how difficult it is to master. But lets take a look at the dps role for rangers. But instead of roles lets look at as responsibilities.

If you were to look at the abilities rangers have a dps cc role. So lets say they have those two responsiblities dps and cc chains in pvp and pve. Well I play rangers a lot and want to tell you that those two responsibilities are not enough to keep players playing that class for a long time. They just do not have enough to do to keep the class interesting ounce you hit a hard skill cap. After lest say one year. (although fun factor could change that) I know this sounds odd but lets look at the tank responsibilities
(Want to point out that every class has a dps role even healers when party is full of health so it could be said that rangers only have one additional role cc)

Tank responsibities
Dps still have contribute was much dps as possible but not primary role
Pulling
Holding argo
Target calling which includes putting icons over target heads
CC and interupts
Have to keep track of every ones mana and health in between pulls cannot pull when people are to low on health or mana.
Many times fulling the role of group leader and doing ready checks explaining fights.

So tanks have a full plate when it comes to responsibilities which makes the class ,in my opinion ,makes it more immersive and fun.

Think wandering mist made a post about how healers need more to do or something to that affect. I have never healed before so will not post about that but will say that a healers targeting system and GUI looks more complicated than the average rotation for dps cycle for dps class.

So looks like dps classes has a shortage of responsibilities so think that Archetypes would be a good way to give the player more to do but there are other ways to do that.

Another thing I want to mention is role playing value. For example for Beastmasters if their pet had a danger sense that detected stealthed enemies or undead in the ground like cadaver dogs. Would increase the role playing value of that archetype. Or for rogues if they were able to set trip wires (oddly enough League of Legends Jax already does this) in between dooar posts (concealed) and out in the open (unconcealed). So if a certain Archetype allowed a rogue to do that that would be great. Ninjas and other martial arts class also fall into the rogue category could be the rogue rogue category.
Also want to mention hunter mage like if traps were augmented with with implosion and actually pulled the target into trap increasing radius then imploding making little mushroom at center of trap knocking toon into air only to met by a trap when they land that would be pretty cool. Think this are the types of things players want.

The next topic I want to talk about is a class being able to do everything. Now some people say that makes all the classes the same, but in my opinion it is not what they are doing it is how well they can do it.

Now Ret pallies in WoW have an ability called flash of light. Flash of light is a spammable ability with cast time that serves as a small but decent seflheal or off heal. But the problem with this was that the way the game mechanics was set up that spell could be buffed on a ret pally in such a way that for a short time The Ret pally could fill the role of a healer. (heal someone to full health in 3 or 4 casts.) So if you were in a raid and there was a part of the fight that did damage pally could off heal and really no way that the tank was going to die with additional heals. So it would give raid groups with pally a huge advantage over a group without one so it got DEMARCATED

Yes gents demarcation is a fancy word for nerf

But Pallies can get an off heal for roleplaying purposes. Decent heal on a long cool like 3 min really does not have to much impact on game just Pally will be able to save people ounce in a while. But if you give pallies an ability on a short cooldown with low mana cost and decent heal then Pally would find himself pushing the heal button a lot more and play more the role of a dps with great heals instead of just a heal.

Now the Protection Pally in Cataclysm also played a dps role. There is a passive ability vengeance that was based on the total damage received while in combat well if you chained pulled the entire dungeound and stayed in combat by the time you got to end of dungeoun you would be doing an insane amount of damage. So that dps role had to demarcated or nerfed.

Now Hunters in WoW have an ability called raor of sacrifice were pets take 20 percent damage of target thing is it was on a 30 second cool down last time I played. Well 20 percent less damage every 30 seconds to help out tank is a huge boost (certain amount of skill required but not too hard) most tank defensive cooldowns were like 2 min and above I think.
But this allowed hunters to play the off tank role on top of their dps cc roles. Also want to add that hunters in WoW had a debuff abilitied called tranquilizing shot. Could be spammed cost 20 energy out of 100 but because it was spammable hunters also had responsibilty to debuff. Worked great in pvp sometimes useful in pve. So just one ability gave him a role mainly because it was spammable and not on a long coold down. Got demarcated (nerfed). Hunters also had a very small 2 percetent heal every 20 second more for role playing purposes which I liked. Yes hunter had a heal that could heal others but so small impact on game extremely small.

So classes can do lots of things and still play their main role. Just should be careful about abilities given.

Another Thing I think you should consider is the needs of the company. When the game rolls out lots of tanks will be need so only makes sense to have more classes fulfill the tank role. So you could have the tank archetype be more impactful than the rest of the archetypes. Really do not think you should tie your self down to all 64 archetypes to a certain level of demarcated roles instead just create them as needed to benefit the game. My personal recommention is to allow warriors warlocks tanking roles. rogue more of a pure dps role over all,hunters off tank role with pet tanking (that means ranger tanks would be allowed to have pets).......point is tank archetypes could have different amount of impact per class.

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Comments

Plateau

Ryufu

Keep in mind DPS classes also need to care about mechanics of a fight, so they don't necessarily have nothing to do. Not every class has to have as many responsibilities as other classes, since that is often how people choose a class.

consultant

Well I posted on a sevral topics really would be really happy if they had abilities or augments that raised the role playing value that would be really good. Besiedes just general suggestions not to be taken as this is what you should do.

Tacualeon

Plate user than can heal is an aberration. Power creep inevitably makes it broken.

consultant wrote: »

The next topic I want to talk about is a class being able to do everything. Now some people say that makes all the classes the same, but in my opinion it is not what they are doing it is how well they can do it.

Noaani

Tacualeon wrote: »

Plate user than can heal is an aberration. Power creep inevitably makes it broken.

Not true at all.

EQ2 had three plate wears that could also heal, and one plate wearer that could siphon health. Two of these were tank classes, two of them were healers.

Of these, one of the healers was quite good, one of the tanks was kind of average, and the other two were somewhat underpowered for over a decade.

If you build a plate wearing healer, all you need to do to prevent it from being over powered is to not give it too much of anything else. If it has low protection against magical damage (plate armor should't automatically provide protection against magical damage), then there is an obvious way to take it on in PvP - and if it has no real damage, no CC and is completely unable to manage hate (as a healer should be), then it is a healer with flavor, not a healer in which power creep is inevitable.

As to an actual tank that is able to heal, all you need to do is make it so those heals replaced the damage mitigation abilities that other tanks have. Kind of straight forward, really.

consultant wrote: »

The next topic I want to talk about is a class being able to do everything. Now some people say that makes all the classes the same, but in my opinion it is not what they are doing it is how well they can do it.

No, please. Players needs some small structure, and meaningful choices of skills and talents with risk.

Played a "classless" wow server and everyone were picking 1 point wonders and being efficient with "generalist builds" and high objetive value talents.
Pick 1 mobility spell.
Pick 1 Paladin Seal.
Pick 1 Paladin Aura.
Pick mage ice shield.

Why would you pick something cool and unique with risk when you can make a high value generalist?

Efficiency and fun are not always in the same page, and most people will put efficient over fun.

If you try and showhorn an existing game in to a system that it was not designed for, then obviously things won't go well - even if it is actual professionals that are attempting it.

Taking a bunch of amateurs attempting this is nothing more than a recipe for failure.

However, neither of these are an indication that the idea can't work if it was a part of the design from the very beginning.

All your argument here is - if you actually made it properly - is an argument against poor execution, not an argument that a game can't be designed around the notion of all classes being able to do all things.

There is an argument both for and against that, but not the one you just made.

Tacualeon

noaani wrote: »

If you build a plate wearing healer, all you need to do to prevent it from being over powered is to not give it too much of anything else.

I think it might be easier said than done.

noaani wrote: »

If it has low protection against magical damage (plate armor should't automatically provide protection against magical damage), then there is an obvious way to take it on in PvP -

Being able to be taken down by magic is something innate of every class, I don't think that counts as weakness.

noaani wrote: »

and if it has no real damage, no CC and is completely unable to manage hate (as a healer should be), then it is a healer with flavor, not a healer in which power creep is inevitable.

Then is useless class.
"no real damage" Can't dungeon dps, can solo content?
"no CC" Can't tank.
"unable to manage hate" Can't heal in dungeon.

noaani wrote: »

If you try and showhorn an existing game in to a system that it was not designed for, then obviously things won't go well - even if it is actual professionals that are attempting it.

Doesn't disprove the point that people will make efficient their fun if given the chance.

noaani wrote: »

Taking a bunch of amateurs attempting this is nothing more than a recipe for failure.

This people are getting paid. I think the game could be much more.

noaani wrote: »

All your argument here is - if you actually made it properly - is an argument against poor execution, not an argument that a game can't be designed around the notion of all classes being able to do all things.

No. I think you should read again. People will make efficient their fun the same way people will pay to win.

Ventharien

Tacualeon wrote: »

Being able to be taken down by magic is something innate of every class, I don't think that counts as weakness.

You are incorrect. When this is used as a balancing factor, it is weighed on the other side by cloth/light having superior magic damage defense, as opposed to Plate/heavy having superior physical defense. This can be taken even further by having multiple types of heavy/light and multiple damage types those armor classes resist. Piercing/Blunt/Slashing for physical, elemental/light/dark/arcane for magic, as an example.

Tacualeon wrote: »

Then is useless class.
"no real damage" Can't dungeon dps, can solo content?
"no CC" Can't tank.
"unable to manage hate" Can't heal in dungeon.

This is defeating your own argument. Healers shouldn't be doing damage in dungeons. They should be healing. Are healers generally harder to solo things with? Yes. That's the price you pay for being able to effectively make someone else's damage meaningless. And a healer should never manage aggro. They should manage heals. The two can be related, but they are related on player choice and ability, not inherent systems (Misdirect Effects)

Atama

WoW also has plate healers (Holy spec paladins) and they are fine. The idea of having heavy healing and high armor doesn’t on its own lead to imbalance. There are a lot more factors than just the ability to heal and one kind of damage mitigation.

I have played every kind of role in MMOs (though I usually play tank or DPS). I feel challenged in any role. A DPS can bear a lot of responsibility; who else has been in a raid where the boss has “rage” mechanics? Basically, where they start suddenly getting more powerful if their health gets low, or the fight goes on too long?

For the former, you need to have good burst damage, timing, and resource management. Let’s say the boss goes berserk when its health is at 10%. It suddenly puts out high damage AoE pulses, or randomly stuns people, or some other major challenge. Your DPS saves their big attacks or high damage CDs for that point. You might also have to slow the damage down right before you hit 10%, to make sure tanks and healers have mana (or whatever) and nothing on CD so they can handle spike damage. Then you explode, trying to burn down that last 10% ASAP before you wipe.

In the latter situation, you need DPS that can do steady high damage to end the fight as soon as you can. If it goes on too long, the boss gets stronger than you can handle and you wipe.

I’ve heard either kind of battle referred to as a “DPS check” and a great deal of responsibility falls on players who are tasked solely with doing damage. That is in addition to the usual concerns... Stay out of AoE, damage spots, or other encounter mechanics, don’t draw aggro, etc. Well-designed group content does not involve the DPS doing their optimal rotation over and over until the fight is finished.

Noaani

Tacualeon wrote: »

Then is useless class.
"no real damage" Can't dungeon dps, can solo content?
"no CC" Can't tank.
"unable to manage hate" Can't heal in dungeon.

I think you are getting a little mixed up here.

No real damage means if cant dungeon DPS, but none of the classes we are talking about are DPS classes. I would potentially agree that a plate wearing healer that could DPS well was overpowered.

And no, none of the four classes I am talking about were overly good at soloing. They weren't meant to be, and the games developer was quite happy to tell people that if they complained about it.

The no CC was also on a healer, so no, it couldn't tank. Plate armor does not automatically mean you can tank.

The inability to manage hate doesn't prevent you from being able to heal in a dungeon, in most games. Tanks are able to keep mobs off healers just fine - it is the DPS that need to keep their hate down. The only real exception to this is WoW, a game where healers generate more hate than they perhaps should.

Your comme ts about being magic being able to take down every class - most games have some form of mechanic where specific classes have higher resistance to magic than other classes. Some games have this built in to class buffs (EQ2), some have it built in to gear (Archeage). This is why in a game like Archeage, tanks taking on players using magic will often equip themselves with full cloth armor - it increases their defense against that magic damage.

The notion that some classes are strong to magic and some are weak to it is kind of a basic building block of classes in MMO's, I'm surprised this seems to be new to you.

As to players making their fun efficient - most games are developed around this concept. The fact that you played on a private server that didn't take this in to account means nothing outside of that private server.

Atama

noaani wrote: »

The inability to manage hate doesn't prevent you from being able to heal in a dungeon, in most games. Tanks are able to keep mobs off healers just fine - it is the DPS that need to keep their hate down.

I still remember this old bit of wisdom for MMORPGs...

If the healer dies, it’s the tank’s fault.

If the tank dies, it’s the healer’s fault.

If a DPS dies, it’s their own damn fault.

Damokles

Tacualeon wrote: »

Plate user than can heal is an aberration. Power creep inevitably makes it broken.

consultant wrote: »

The next topic I want to talk about is a class being able to do everything. Now some people say that makes all the classes the same, but in my opinion it is not what they are doing it is how well they can do it.

No, please. Players needs some small structure, and meaningful choices of skills and talents with risk.

Played a "classless" wow server and everyone were picking 1 point wonders and being efficient with "generalist builds" and high objetive value talents.
Pick 1 mobility spell.
Pick 1 Paladin Seal.
Pick 1 Paladin Aura.
Pick mage ice shield.

Why would you pick something cool and unique with risk when you can make a high value generalist?

Efficiency and fun are not always in the same page, and most people will put efficient over fun.

Played on a similar server once. But I did the one thing no one else did: Aura and def spell stacking as a druid bear. You can achieve ridiculous levels of tankyness xD

But to be real with you guys.
I think that classes should have their roles and their own gameplay. A warlock should not play like a mage. If it did, then you should rather play a mage.

If a clas didnt have its own gameplay then we would come to the same result as wow did. All ranged classes basically feeling the same, while all melee classes feel the same. No individuality.

A secondary class should not totally change the identity of a class. It should augment it. A Keeper (Tank/Summoner) would still be a tank, but instead of absorbing the damage himself, they would redirect it to their summons or something. Choosing the Cleric as your secondary wont make you a off healer. It will give you the tools to heal yourself.

Noaani

Atama wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

The inability to manage hate doesn't prevent you from being able to heal in a dungeon, in most games. Tanks are able to keep mobs off healers just fine - it is the DPS that need to keep their hate down.

I still remember this old bit of wisdom for MMORPGs...

If the healer dies, it’s the tank’s fault.

If the tank dies, it’s the healer’s fault.

If a DPS dies, it’s their own damn fault.

As a person that has been a DPS first for almost 20 years (with tank, healer and support characters ready to go should they be needed by my guild), I have to say, this is about as accurate as a bit of wisdom can get.

Tacualeon

noaani wrote: »

The notion that some classes are strong to magic and some are weak to it is kind of a basic building block of classes in MMO's, I'm surprised this seems to be new to you.

Talking about basic, the basic building block for rpgs is D&D and D&D, as far as I know, doesn't have innate magic resistanc stats. You are just making what you have experienced, the arbitrary rule.
I see no point in keep talking to you if you keep patronizing.

Plateau

Noaani

Tacualeon wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

The notion that some classes are strong to magic and some are weak to it is kind of a basic building block of classes in MMO's, I'm surprised this seems to be new to you.

Talking about basic, the basic building block for rpgs is D&D and D&D, as far as I know, doesn't have innate magic resistanc stats. You are just making what you have experienced, the arbitrary rule.
I see no point in keep talking to you if you keep patronizing.

D&D is where some concepts came from, but it isn't used as a building block in many things.

If it were, WotC would sue - they are fairly strict in protecting their IP's.

Even the use of a Beholder has seen them sue in the past - let alone actually making use of their game systems without permission.

Many games also break down physical and magical in to sub-groups, with physical being broken down in to slashing, crushing and piercing, while magic is broken down in to fire, cold, lightning etc. If I were talking about this kind of thing, then I'd have to agree with you that it was some arbitrary thing I was making up. This is because fewer games do this, and among those that do, most have their own way of breaking things down past the generic magic/physical that is fairly standard in virtually all games.

As to arbitrary comments - not at all. The thing with arbitrary comments is that if you are talking from inexperience, all comments are arbitrary. When you are talking from experience - as long as your comments are based on that experience - those comments are no longer arbitrary.

So sure, I could be talking about what I have experienced, but if I have experienced 20 or more MMORPG's, then comments based on the collected knowledge from those MMORPG's is not arbitrary knowledge.

Attempting to talk about MMO's in general if you have only played 1 or 2 does run the risk of being arbitrary though.

In terms of what is absolutely arbitrary, this comment is the closest to a textbook example in this thread.

Tacualeon wrote: »

Plate user than can heal is an aberration. Power creep inevitably makes it broken.

It is taken from a singular perspective, yet is written in an attempt to be authoritative. It is also ignoring many, many games out there that have successfully implemented exactly what you are tring to say is broken.

Your comments on magical resists are also somewhat arbitrary, your attempt to back that comment up with your D&D quote above is completely arbitrary.

Tacualeon

noaani wrote: »

but it isn't used as a building block in many things.

Like innate magic resistance.

Many games also break down physical and magical in to sub-groups, with physical being broken down in to slashing, crushing and piercing, while magic is broken down in to fire, cold, lightning etc.

Really like the simple yet accurate slashing, crushing and piercing. I think magic could be a bit richer.

noaani wrote: »

In terms of what is absolutely arbitrary, this comment is the closest to a textbook example in this thread.

Tacualeon wrote: »

Plate user than can heal is an aberration. Power creep inevitably makes it broken.

It is taken from a singular perspective, yet is written in an attempt to be authoritative. It is also ignoring many, many games out there that have successfully implemented exactly what you are tring to say is broken.

Your comments on magical resists are also somewhat arbitrary, your attempt to back that comment up with your D&D quote above is completely arbitrary.

You made a comment expressing how what you experienced and your vision was the basic building block.
D&D IS the basics building block and contradicts that.

About plate armor and direct, constant sustain I hope I'm wrong.

Noaani

Tacualeon wrote: »

Really like the simple yet accurate slashing, crushing and piercing. I think magic could be a bit richer.

Some games do go further than that - but any discussion about that in the context of this discussion would be arbitrary and random.

EQ2 broke magic damage down in to 7 different types, while physical damage had the above 3. As I said though, talking about an example from one game would be arbitrary in this discussion.

You made a comment expressing how what you experienced and your vision was the basic building block.
D&D IS the basics building block and contradicts that.

But this isn't true.

D&D isn't a basic building block of MMORPG's (except DDO - and even then that is debatable).

D&D was influencial in the fantasy roleplaying genre, and MMORPG's have taken some aspects from that, but in no way is D&D a basic building block of current day MMORPG's.

Atama

leonerdo wrote: »

Tacualeon wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

The notion that some classes are strong to magic and some are weak to it is kind of a basic building block of classes in MMO's, I'm surprised this seems to be new to you.

Talking about basic, the basic building block for rpgs is D&D and D&D, as far as I know, doesn't have innate magic resistanc stats. You are just making what you have experienced, the arbitrary rule.
I see no point in keep talking to you if you keep patronizing.

I hate to be that guy, but aren't Will/Fortitude/Reflex kind of like magic resistance, while Armor Class is like physical resistance? Of course it's not as simple as putting on cloth armor to get more magic resistance, but there are still ways to increase your defenses against spells, right? It's been a long time since I played any DnD, so maybe I'm mistaken.

Going back further to my years playing 2nd Edition, each class had different saving throws against various magical effects. A warrior might do better against a dragon’s breath weapon, but a wizard might do better against a wand. (Hypothetical examples, I am not going to go dig out the PHB from the boxes in my garage to give real stats.)

consultant

consultant wrote: »

The next topic I want to talk about is a class being able to do everything. Now some people say that makes all the classes the same, but in my opinion it is not what they are doing it is how well they can do it.

No, please. Players needs some small structure, and meaningful choices of skills and talents with risk.

Played a "classless" wow server and everyone were picking 1 point wonders and being efficient with "generalist builds" and high objetive value talents.
Pick 1 mobility spell.
Pick 1 Paladin Seal.
Pick 1 Paladin Aura.
Pick mage ice shield.

Why would you pick something cool and unique with risk when you can make a high value generalist?

Efficiency and fun are not always in the same page, and most people will put efficient over fun.

[/quote]

Well Protection pally in WoW is a Hybrid class that can do everything tank dps heal cc interupts burst dps
not so much dps because of tank spec but still had dps responsibility and I think it is the best class in that game. Not every class has to do everything I said a class not every class. Some classes could mostly be dps class with no support abilities and few cc abilities.

Another thing that I think should be considered is how prominent or impactful should an archetype be.
Archetype should present a little bit of a learning curve. Each Archetype within a class should be different enough so that the player should have to learn how to play that Archetype. Kind of like in WoW they had different specializations.

Think Archetypes should represent lesser versions of Presitige Classes from the world of Dungeouns and Dragons.

AntVictus

Having played ESO and seeing what a joke classes are over there because they can do this, no. No, no no, no no. When everyone is special no one is and when everyone can do anything stupid tends to happen, unkillable heal tanks for instance (which also did stupid big damage). You need tank only classes, you need healer only classes (classes that are the only ones that are able to viably tank or healers). Classes need an identity...and they have them based on primaries. A tank doesn't need to be able to throw up it's hand and fully heal itself, and a healer doesn't need to be able to do massive damage, while a dps doesn't need to be able to eat a tank buster and survive. Those are my 2 cents good day.

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