DPS Meter Megathread

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

I’ve instructed the mods to focus any dps meter threads into a single mega thread to help focus and centralize the discussion 👍

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Undead Canuck

Well, at least they necro-ed an old post and didn't start another one.

Aaaaaaand we're off! Again!

Samson1

I'm okay with no damage meters.

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Lincoln Hawk

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Game is dead without a meter. to be honest, the more I hear the more this seems like it could be one of the most spectacular failures any MMO has ever had. I take no joy in saying that btw.

LOL
This isnt a competitive PvE only MMO.

unknown

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Lincoln Hawk

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Lincoln Hawk wrote: »

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Game is dead without a meter. to be honest, the more I hear the more this seems like it could be one of the most spectacular failures any MMO has ever had. I take no joy in saying that btw.

LOL
This isnt a competitive PvE only MMO.

Any game with PVE is competitive PvE. Not allowing meters means the content will be piss easy.

Im interested to see how competitive it will be when you have the chance to get run up on at any moment by another guild. More challenge in that then your dps.

Samson1

I can see the argument from both sides. On one hand, the DPS meter can be used for self improvement... which is wonderful. And on the other hand, I feel the meters can be used to gloat and promote oneself and alienate others.

This is just a quick explanation but I'm sure others have reiterated with more in depth the same thing within the multiple 'DPS meter' threads that exist.

Caeryl

Samson wrote: »

I can see the argument from both sides. On one hand, the DPS meter can be used for self improvement... which is wonderful. And on the other hand, I feel the meters can be used to gloat and promote oneself and alienate others.

This is just a quick explanation but I'm sure others have reiterated with more in depth the same thing within the multiple 'DPS meter' threads that exist.

A solution was already provided, make combat tracking a guild perk that only guild masters + officers can use. Fulfills the need for objective combat feedback and keeps info out of the hands of trolls who don’t know how to use the information correctly.

Samson1

Caeryl wrote: »

Samson wrote: »

I can see the argument from both sides. On one hand, the DPS meter can be used for self improvement... which is wonderful. And on the other hand, I feel the meters can be used to gloat and promote oneself and alienate others.

This is just a quick explanation but I'm sure others have reiterated with more in depth the same thing within the multiple 'DPS meter' threads that exist.

A solution was already provided, make combat tracking a guild perk that only guild masters + officers can use. Fulfills the need for objective combat feedback and keeps info out of the hands of trolls who don’t know how to use the information correctly.

But I also think that many guild masters/officers could abuse this information and could potentially lead to toxic situations and the alienation of guild community members.

Caeryl

Samson wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Samson wrote: »

I can see the argument from both sides. On one hand, the DPS meter can be used for self improvement... which is wonderful. And on the other hand, I feel the meters can be used to gloat and promote oneself and alienate others.

This is just a quick explanation but I'm sure others have reiterated with more in depth the same thing within the multiple 'DPS meter' threads that exist.

A solution was already provided, make combat tracking a guild perk that only guild masters + officers can use. Fulfills the need for objective combat feedback and keeps info out of the hands of trolls who don’t know how to use the information correctly.

But I also think that many guild masters/officers could abuse this information and could potentially lead to toxic situations and the alienation of guild community members.

If they chose combat tracking over another guild perk (which is how the perk systems works) then that would be a massive waste of resources on their part.

To be clear here, I believe a lot of “toxicity” is just people disliking that their performance is put in the open. I’ve tried to coach players who were performing badly, giving polite advice and general combat tips, and those people will ignore all advice and continue weighing down the group, then scream “TOXIC! ELITIST!!” when the group reasonably kicks them.

GMs should absolutely have access to combat info from their members. Those guild members have an obligation to each other and to their guild to perform in a way that benefits the guild. In the same way it isn’t “toxic” for a merchant guild to kick a trader for massively undercutting everyone else, it’s not “toxic” for a combat guild to kick someone for refusing to put forth effort to improve.

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Lincoln Hawk

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Lincoln Hawk wrote: »

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Lincoln Hawk wrote: »

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Game is dead without a meter. to be honest, the more I hear the more this seems like it could be one of the most spectacular failures any MMO has ever had. I take no joy in saying that btw.

LOL
This isnt a competitive PvE only MMO.

Any game with PVE is competitive PvE. Not allowing meters means the content will be piss easy.

Im interested to see how competitive it will be when you have the chance to get run up on at any moment by another guild. More challenge in that then your dps.

Nothing about a zerg is a challenge. If there was like an arena system or something maybe.

This isnt wow its an open world game, where 80% of dungeon/raid content is also open, which means you will be competing just to do the dungeon let alone worry about competitive dps numbers.

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Nagash

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Samson wrote: »

I'm okay with no damage meters.

Dont use one then, and let everyone else who cares about that k

Damokles wrote: »

@noaani @nagash This thread is already the biggest non-toast thread on the new forums (not counting the archived threads).
The DPS meter thread has 4.6k views and 569 comments.
The Solo gameplay thread has 5k views and 234 comments.

DPS Meter is officially the longest thread and has the second most views in the General Discussions forum.

(I scanned quickly through the whole general discussions forum)

Its a very important feature for an MMO.

Nagash wrote: »

Kosturko wrote: »

So if there is no dps meter that means that Raids will be way to easy ? Otherwise without logs how can you make a hardcore pve guild ? More importantly how can you recruit players when you can’t judge anyone’s performance ?

You will just have to do it the good old fashed way. trial and error

This kind of thinking leads to dead games. Enjjoy killing the game because you think people should not be able to improve and track what dps they are doing. Even more so with 64 classes combos. Not having a dps meter is also letting people know pve content is a joke.

well considering that I put a lot of money on The success of the game proves otherwise. Just tell me what is the harm of not having a dps meter in a practical sense?

Lincoln Hawk

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Lincoln Hawk wrote: »

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Lincoln Hawk wrote: »

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Game is dead without a meter. to be honest, the more I hear the more this seems like it could be one of the most spectacular failures any MMO has ever had. I take no joy in saying that btw.

LOL
This isnt a competitive PvE only MMO.

Any game with PVE is competitive PvE. Not allowing meters means the content will be piss easy.

Im interested to see how competitive it will be when you have the chance to get run up on at any moment by another guild. More challenge in that then your dps.

Nothing about a zerg is a challenge. If there was like an arena system or something maybe.

This isnt wow its an open world game, where 80% of dungeon/raid content is also open, which means you will be competing just to do the dungeon let alone worry about competitive dps numbers.

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Lincoln Hawk wrote: »

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Lincoln Hawk wrote: »

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Lincoln Hawk wrote: »

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Game is dead without a meter. to be honest, the more I hear the more this seems like it could be one of the most spectacular failures any MMO has ever had. I take no joy in saying that btw.

LOL
This isnt a competitive PvE only MMO.

Any game with PVE is competitive PvE. Not allowing meters means the content will be piss easy.

Im interested to see how competitive it will be when you have the chance to get run up on at any moment by another guild. More challenge in that then your dps.

Nothing about a zerg is a challenge. If there was like an arena system or something maybe.

This isnt wow its an open world game, where 80% of dungeon/raid content is also open, which means you will be competing just to do the dungeon let alone worry about competitive dps numbers.

So hard content will be instanced. Great everything I said is correct.

Nope, not even close.

Niraada

I'm speaking purely as a healer main here, but I for one am all for not having damage meters. As long as I have a log itemising who died to what so I can see how we're failing mechanics, I'm not interested in who has the bigger e-peen.

Do they even give any actual relevant information? If you're wiping to a boss at 30%, those numbers aren't holding some mystical secret to adjusting your tactics, and if you're wiping at 3%, then are those numbers really going to tell you anything you don't already know?

Noaani

Nagash wrote: »

Just tell me what is the harm of not having a dps meter in a practical sense?

Without a combat tracker, players have no real way of finding, testing and reporting issues with the games combat system to Intrepid.

As much as I believe Intrepid will prove to be one of the most competent MMO developers out there (honestly, perhaps the single most competent), there will still be things that they miss in their combat system. Since games like this are so large and complex, we can't necessarily expect them to find all of these issues themselves after launch, either.

However, arm a few hundred players that know what they are doing with a solid combat tracker, and we'll find all of these issues out. This is what has happened in every MMO I have played (which seems to be a fairly long list).

Now, if a given player is someone that doesn't care if there are aspects of the combat system that are not working as they should, and only care if they can kill the mob/player in front of them, they probably wouldn't care about this. Honestly, they probably care about this as much as someone like me cares about in game marrage.

The thing is, if that player is able to see that there are other ways to play an MMO, and that those other ways of playing an MMO are no more or less valid than the way they play, then that player that doesn't care about a combat tracker themself would be able to see that it is a fairly central part of the way players that are focused on efficiency or mastery of combat actually play MMO's.

Honestly, my thoughts on marrage in game are probably similar to some peoples thoughts on combat trackers. I think it is absolutely stupid, and I want nothing at all to do with it. However, I fully understand that other people appreciate it for reasons that are their own, and as long as it doesn't become something I am forced to have to deal with, I am more than happy for it to be in the game for them to enjoy.

Noaani

Niraada wrote: »

I'm speaking purely as a healer main here, but I for one am all for not having damage meters. As long as I have a log itemising who died to what so I can see how we're failing mechanics, I'm not interested in who has the bigger e-peen.

A list of players that die, and what they die to, is one of the things a combat tracker does.

In fact, anything that does this is a form of combat tracker, as it tracked the combat.

Do they even give any actual relevant information? If you're wiping to a boss at 30%, those numbers aren't holding some mystical secret to adjusting your tactics, and if you're wiping at 3%, then are those numbers really going to tell you anything you don't already know?

To players that have no idea, the information contained in a combat tracker means little. These people often refer to them as DPS meters, as that is the only aspect of a combat tracker they understand (to be fair, some people refer to them as DPS meters so that these people know what is being discussed).

If your raid is wiping at 30%, what a good raid leader would do is look at what is killing the individual players. The fact that the raid is wiping then doesn't mean as much as "why" the raid is wiping then.

A proper combat tracker will be able to tell you literally every attack that your group or raid dealt to an encounter, every attack they recieved from an encounter, every heal, and every CC that hits its mark. Obviously, from this, things like individual character DPS or HPS can be calculated, but so too can things like how much damage the tank is mitigating, blocking and dodging, which healers are over healing, which players are not successfully performing the tasks that the encounter is asking of them, who is not moving out of the lava - etc.

In terms of relevent information, a person that understands how a combat tracker works is able to look at a handful of charts that the tracker spits out, and will know how the pull went, and why that is how it went.

Niraada

noaani wrote: »

Niraada wrote: »

I'm speaking purely as a healer main here, but I for one am all for not having damage meters. As long as I have a log itemising who died to what so I can see how we're failing mechanics, I'm not interested in who has the bigger e-peen.

A list of players that die, and what they die to, is one of the things a combat tracker does.

In fact, anything that does this is a form of combat tracker, as it tracked the combat.

Do they even give any actual relevant information? If you're wiping to a boss at 30%, those numbers aren't holding some mystical secret to adjusting your tactics, and if you're wiping at 3%, then are those numbers really going to tell you anything you don't already know?

To players that have no idea, the information contained in a combat tracker means little. These people often refer to them as DPS meters, as that is the only aspect of a combat tracker they understand (to be fair, some people refer to them as DPS meters so that these people know what is being discussed).

If your raid is wiping at 30%, what a good raid leader would do is look at what is killing the individual players. The fact that the raid is wiping then doesn't mean as much as "why" the raid is wiping then.

A proper combat tracker will be able to tell you literally every attack that your group or raid dealt to an encounter, every attack they recieved from an encounter, every heal, and every CC that hits its mark. Obviously, from this, things like individual character DPS or HPS can be calculated, but so too can things like how much damage the tank is mitigating, blocking and dodging, which healers are over healing, which players are not successfully performing the tasks that the encounter is asking of them, who is not moving out of the lava - etc.

In terms of relevent information, a person that understands how a combat tracker works is able to look at a handful of charts that the tracker spits out, and will know how the pull went, and why that is how it went.

I was talking about damage meters specifically, hence why I mentioned wanting to have a log available, and why my references were specifically to the meters.

Combat logs are usually the things that such meters pull data from, and do serve a useful purpose outside of providing raw numbers.

I'm not interested in seeing how hard every single attack hit. I don't think it's particularly useful information. Knowing that someone died by standing in fire though... that's pretty useful. I don't really care how hard the fire hit them.

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