Serious concern/question about being a bad guy

*Since this thread is getting more attention and people know me from other games and are now wanting to join in the conversation then I will amend my opener here but still keep the original text for posterity sake as you read and catch up.

This thread wants to focus on in-game mechanics that already exist that will allow for good guys to choose to partake in a risk/reward situation and those bad guys that are the potential punishment waiting for them. This game offers much potential for discussion and that is all we want is an open discussion for ways to be bad, and no this thread is not promoting the killing of unwilling participants. Our version of pvp is the literal definition of player vs player on a more small scale version outside from guild/city raids. We are discussing a way for good guy players to seek risk and how bad guy players can be the counterpart*

I want to start this off by saying that I understand how taboo pvp is to a large portion of players. Most people want great story arc progression and maybe others are interested in pvp just enough for the rewards, achievements, gear etc. I would like to present another type of player, not necessarily a roleplay type person but a person who wants to be a bad guy. I want to know how this game will appeal to those of us who aren't looking for dungeon glory, who don't have time for world politics or a sense of life long goals... I want to discuss the person who likes being the bad guy, the guy who was raised with nothing given to them, who learned that the only way to get by is to take it from others and to inflict a little pain so others know how he/she feels.

I have watched some videos and read some articles/posts and I do feel like I have an entry-level understanding of this game's open-world pvp structure, but I feel like it is a far more punishing system, then it is a way to play the game. As stated above, I get that the vast majority of people aren't going to be interested in this but there are plenty of people who like being the bad guy and every good story or hero needs a bad guy. This game has the bounty hunter system and some guild and zone pvp but I have yet to see a full break down of actual pvp focused gameplay.

I don't want to just be a griefing player killer, but I do want some incentive to play a bad character that keeps the fancy lads and goody players on their toes. So far I see more in=game mechanics dedicated to punishing these types of actions and only allowing just a tiny taste of the bad life, I don't see anything that rewards players for taking this path. This game gives you religious arcs that lead to exclusive items, titles and even new skill augments. This game allows a player to build a restaurant in popular hunting areas to benefit the dedication of their time to crafting delicious food and planning a location to be the best source of buffs in that area but what about the bad guys?

Is there really no underground sub-faction that has rewards certain individuals for throwing a wrench into something? A reverse bounty system? An unholy religion that promotes being a bad guy? I mean look at some of the possible skill combos necromancer, trickster, assassin, charlatan, shadow lord... This game provides the bad guy prototypes but doesn't embrace the full potential? Please please please tell me that with all the love put into this game and all the "doing better than other mmos" doesn't mean that you have written off the classic villain player character in light of trying to making people a completely safe and comfortable feeling.

I know a lot of the devs in this game mention older mmo games as inspiration so I am sure you guys remember Ultima Online? You had a full on red player system that basically turned you into a different type of player. Will this game have something like this or is it only that internal system that punishes you for being bad by basically making you completely useless after so long so that you are no longer a threat to even a level 1 critter.

Can someone please link or explain something related to my questions/concerns? I would obviously love to hear from a dev or tester.

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RahkstarRPG

Attacking caravans, past the rewards of the caravan you claim itself, has a progression system for it.

Ganking though? No. They are trying to discourage ganking. It shouldn't be rewarded.

SSRogue

RahkstarRPG wrote: »

Attacking caravans, past the rewards of the caravan you claim itself, has a progression system for it.

Ganking though? No. They are trying to discourage ganking. It shouldn't be rewarded.

I specifically said that I didn't want to just be a player killer. I did see the caravan system and I see the potential for a guild dedicated to being a highwayman type thing or even some sort of robin hood theme and it is more than nothing outside of guild/node wars, but I feel like this game is far too grand to have that be the only system.

I do appreciate your feedback and I welcome more, but please do not assume that I am only worried about being a player killer. I want to know if the game acknowledges that bad people exist and part of life is such. There is story potential as stated above with possible class types and maybe an evil or corrupt religion. I just want to know about the darker side of gameplay.

Bardtic

This game is designed on a player driven ally and enemy system. Check out how some of the games like Eve and Star Wars Galaxy worked in their hay day. You have endless options to be the bad guy. Within the most simple and basic crook/thug mentality you can play a corrupt player who player kills and then tries to run and hide while reaping the experience rewards as your corruption ticks away over time. All the while trying to avoid or defeat bounty hunters on your tail.

On another note this game is going to have an interconnection of alliances, enemies and politics. You can play the spy. Infilitrate an opposing guild as a "recently max level" or "looking for a new guild/social group" and get info on the defensive systems or when a massive caravan. will be moved Relay that info to an enemy guild and get paid and try not to get caught.

For those who have only ever played what main stream MMO's have become you are in for an absolute treat of what happens when players are given the tools to create and then left to their own devices. The sinister actions you can take are completely up to your own imagination.

Samson1

Or you could become the mayor of a node and apply a 100% taxation...

SSRogue

Reign118 wrote: »

Within the most simple and basic crook/thug mentality you can play a corrupt player who player kills and then tries to run and hide while reaping the experience rewards as your corruption ticks away over time. All the while trying to avoid or defeat bounty hunters on your tail.

On another note this game is going to have an interconnection of alliances, enemies and politics. You can play the spy. Infiltrate an opposing guild as a "recently max level" or "looking for a new guild/social group" and get info on the defensive systems or when a massive caravan. will be moved Relay that info to an enemy guild and get paid and try not to get caught.

For those who have only ever played what mainstream MMO's have become you are in for an absolute treat of what happens when players are given the tools to create and then left to their own devices. The sinister actions you can take are completely up to your own imagination.

I do get this and trust me it is very cool but the guild politics are a bit much. The highwayman and thug ideas do seem pretty cool. I get why the corruption system exists but are there mechanics that benefit you for it? Again I keep going back to something with religion or a quest line that allows you to be in a kinda faction or npc guild like a thieves guild? Just the act of doing bad and then running and hiding from bounty hunters is a bit one-sided, it would be at least more exciting to have some reward for players who deal with corruption and the negative status you HAVE to deal with by giving some sort of title/vanity unlock showing your bad ways to better enforce your identity as a and guy when you do things within the game.

Actually that is the best way to describe this, does anyone know if by repeatedly doing bad things and having to put up with the corruption negativity and going out of your way to hinder your character by being a bad guy, could a player unlock things to show off that they are in fact a bad guy? You could you this for roleplay and be more in character for the more allowed in-game mechanics. I yet again go back to the religion system and even the craft/politics system, how doing things unlock titles/positions and those titles give a status or augment to reflect your effort/achievement. Even things like guild leader system that gives special permission, or mayor etc.

If I were a rogue archetype and partook in a guild that focused on taking over caravan escorts then all I have to show for it is the experience and loot, but if I were an actual bad guy that was part of something in-game then I could look the part either via cosmetic appearance or skill augment. Then my guild could actually roleplay that much more like a group of baddies, along with balancing a thug/bully system with bounty hunters. In the end, the good guys will ALWAYS win because of corruption but if one wanted to dedicate time to that then are mayhaps something becomes available to those players via a questline?

Noaani

SSRogue wrote: »

I feel like it is a far more punishing system, then it is a way to play the game.

This is it right here.

Corruption is not a way to play the game, nor is it meant to be.

Corruption is a penalty, and nothing else.

Intrepid do not want to prevent you from killing other players without reason, but they want to give you absolutely no encouragement to do it, either.

Bardtic

From what I gathered, it seemed like there would be aspects of the thieves guild that reward you for being a bad guy.

SSRogue

noaani wrote: »

SSRogue wrote: »

I feel like it is a far more punishing system, then it is a way to play the game.

This is it right here.

Corruption is not a way to play the game, nor is it meant to be.

Corruption is a penalty, and nothing else.

Intrepid do not want to prevent you from killing other players without reason, but they want to give you absolutely no encouragement to do it, either.

Don't focus so much on killing, there are other things you could do to still be a bad guy besides outright griefing or the more involved guild spies. Brawler rings, pickpockets, or even something with trickster or charlatan that can allow you to deceive some internal mechanic like forging fake items or being deceitful. There will be times where killing someone is part of a line towards being a bad buy but that doesn't have to be the goal and corruption negates griefing so that is already not an issue, but you can't have a game so open with so much potential and only have so little to offer for bad guy players.

I am sure we have all played a variety of mmo games from WoW to Ultima, DAC, Lineage and BD, and this game sets out to improve on all their mechanics... except this game seems to have a hard cut on the role of a bad guy, which again is more than player killing.

SSRogue

Reign118 wrote: »

From what I gathered, it seemed like there would be aspects of the thieves guild that reward you for being a bad guy.

Do you have any links to that information? Something officially said or actual in-game?

FuryBladeborne

Intreprid wants to allow players to attack others that they have a problem with. That is it. There is a potential reward in crafting material drops from attacking non-combatants, but the reward does not go farther than that unless you count the benefit of getting additional PVP against bounty hunters without gaining corruption.

Bardtic

@SSRogue It was one of the interviews with Steven, either the summit or asmongold where he talks about a quest of stealing a book from an opposing faction.

SSRogue

FuryBladeborne wrote: »

Intreprid wants to allow players to attack others that they have a problem with. That is it. There is a potential reward in crafting material drops from attacking non-combatants, but the reward does not go farther than that unless you count the benefit of getting additional PVP against bounty hunters without gaining corruption.

Thank you for your feedback good sir but again I state that this thread isn't completely focused on player killing. Yes part of doing bad guy things is killing people and it is allowed and you are punished for it and it would be cool for players who constantly play this game with corruption to have some sort of acknowledgment if you are going out of your way to do so as part of a quest to prove how much of a bad guy your character is that leads towards something AND the potential for having a guild that perhaps does fight bounty hunters as a good vs bad in the eyes of society is fun but again good will always win do to corruption and that is fine but there are other things that make you a bad guy.

Intreprid is giving us the caravan system that allows some level of being a bad guy and that is awesome but.. . obviously bad guys want more right? So I can only hope a dev comes across this with more detailed information on some long term mechanics or a system that player may partake in that can reward that path to counterbalance the good guys.

I will also state one more time, I am not asking to be rewarded strictly for being a player killer.

SSRogue

Reign118 wrote: »

@SSRogue It was one of the interviews with Steven, either the summit or asmongold where he talks about a quest of stealing a book from an opposing faction.

I do seem to remember something during the Asmon interview, I'll have to go rewatch that. Thank you for bringing it up and please feel free to share any further details on this open should you come across any.

In every rpg game I play, from D&D to WoW to private Ultima Online servers, I always have one good guy character that is the raider and end game content grinder but... I also have my bad guy. I have my thief, or my pk, or my looking out for himself character. Part of the rewarding experience in games is being able to act out this side of yourself and yes even being beaten up and caught for being the bad guy is part of it. This game has so many systems and promises and so much world-building... it would be a shame for only a tiny handful of things outside of faction/guild pvp (including guild spies and guild espionage) to be a bad guy. The caravan system is legit and has some promise but that alone is limited to only one event, I just want to know what other options are out there for my time and money to be dedicated to.

Bardtic

@SSRogue I feel you. Most MMO's I am a meta slave. I love optimization. But in every D&D campaign I have ever played I always start out as a bad guy. It is hard though, some people just can't actually roleplay and start getting mad at you(you personally, not your character) when your character does bad/evil things. So 9/10 times my character ends up being good overall. But my favorite campaigns have always been when I can really get into that evilness and the DM lets you feel the consequences of your actions.

Noaani

SSRogue wrote: »

you can't have a game so open with so much potential and only have so little to offer for bad guy players.

Actually, you can.

"Bad guy" players cost games subscriptions.

Why would a game cater to a player niche that costs the games more subscriptions than it brings in?

SSRogue

noaani wrote: »

SSRogue wrote: »

you can't have a game so open with so much potential and only have so little to offer for bad guy players.

Actually, you can.

"Bad guy" players cost games subscriptions.

Why would a game cater to a player niche that costs the games more subscriptions than it brings in?

You have every right to feel and think the way you do but do not assume your mindset represents all or most (I admit it does though). Many players enjoy being and others enjoy punishing those bad guys. These devs have already taken care of player killers so much so that griefing won't happen so if that is what you are uncomfortable with then it is already not a problem.

As for bad guy players being so "bad" for a game, then take any fantasy story as an example. you always have to have some bad. This game is far far too involved for it to be overrun by just a few mechanics like thieves or some assassin to kill a "good" npc or a corrupt individual who titers on the edge of society. The game devs have some systems in place already that make being bad fun like ambushing caravans to punish greedy adventurers for wanting more rewards, I'm just curious as to what else they have.

If you the good character wanders into the wrong part of town or out alone then why not be punished or have the potential.

Noaani

SSRogue wrote: »

As for bad guy players being so "bad" for a game, then take any fantasy story as an example.

If every time the bad guy in a fantasy story came along, the book turned back 12 pages and the reader had to read them again - you can bet people would stop buying stories with bad guys.

Haraxa

@SSRogue
Hey, I think I understand your point, but I have the feeling you're mixing three things, that should be seperated (and it isn't helpful that the developers use the term "corruption" for both and do not seperate it by different words).

1. Being a bad guy regarding the morals held up in the world.
This means for example: "Do I have the chance to choose between a selfish solution for a quest and a selfless one". I'm thinking of Star Wars, that gives you decisions from time to time that pushes you more to the light or darf side of might. I would love to see this ingame. For example: You are sent out to bring back stolen goods. You succeed. Now the game gives you the choice: Take all the goods for yourself (=much more money but bad reputation), lie and only give back part of it (more money, less reputation), give back all of it (less money, but more reputation). I am not sure if AoC will have this implemented. Does anyone know?

2. Being a bad guy by making some progression of other players harder
This means: Raiding caravans, setting traps for other players (PVP) or even be a soldier guild that loves raiding cities. For example: After winning a siege battle, there will be a brief period in which you can go around and plunder player and guild freeholds. There you can be a really bad guy.

3. Being a bad person by making the game experience for other players less fun
If the core element of "being a bad guy" is to ruin the game experience of others (what you denie in some post, but there is the impression you want to do this), this will not a viable path to play the game. AoC, as far as I know, follows a "risk brings rewards" system. This gives much space to hinder players and battle them (i.e. caravans). But there is a more save, but less rewarding way to play it. This way is protected and should be. If someone (and I'm not saying you are such a person, as I don't know your standpoint about this, yet) gets his*her fun in a game by intentionally ruining the game experience of others, you are not longer playing a bad guy, you'r acting as a bad person.
To be clear about that: I am not talking about destroying a player build city. This is part of the game. I am not talking about PVP. I am talking about stuff that is adressed by the corruption system: Ganking over and over again not-flagged low level players, for example.

tltr: There will be many chances to be a "bad guy" like a warmonger, plunderer or raider. But if you mainly target other players ability to have fun playing the game, there will be mechanics in place to prevent this.

As I am relatively new to the game, feel free to correct me. :-)

Best wishes,
Haraxa

Xrael

SSRogue wrote: »

I want to start this off by saying that I understand how taboo pvp is to a large portion of players. Most people want great story arc progression and maybe others are interested in pvp just enough for the rewards, achievements, gear etc. I would like to present another type of player, not necessarily a roleplay type person but a person who wants to be a bad guy. I want to know how this game will appeal to those of us who aren't looking for dungeon glory, who don't have time for world politics or a sense of life long goals... I want to discuss the person who likes being the bad guy, the guy who was raised with nothing given to them, who learned that the only way to get by is to take it from others and to inflict a little pain so others know how he/she feels.

I have watched some videos and read some articles/posts and I do feel like I have an entry-level understanding of this game's open-world pvp structure, but I feel like it is a far more punishing system, then it is a way to play the game. As stated above, I get that the vast majority of people aren't going to be interested in this but there are plenty of people who like being the bad guy and every good story or hero needs a bad guy. This game has the bounty hunter system and some guild and zone pvp but I have yet to see a full break down of actual pvp focused gameplay.

I don't want to just be a griefing player killer, but I do want some incentive to play a bad character that keeps the fancy lads and goody players on their toes. So far I see more in=game mechanics dedicated to punishing these types of actions and only allowing just a tiny taste of the bad life, I don't see anything that rewards players for taking this path. This game gives you religious arcs that lead to exclusive items, titles and even new skill augments. This game allows a player to build a restaurant in popular hunting areas to benefit the dedication of their time to crafting delicious food and planning a location to be the best source of buffs in that area but what about the bad guys?

Is there really no underground sub-faction that has rewards certain individuals for throwing a wrench into something? A reverse bounty system? An unholy religion that promotes being a bad guy? I mean look at some of the possible skill combos necromancer, trickster, assassin, charlatan, shadow lord... This game provides the bad guy prototypes but doesn't embrace the full potential? Please please please tell me that with all the love put into this game and all the "doing better than other mmos" doesn't mean that you have written off the classic villain player character in light of trying to making people a completely safe and comfortable feeling.

I know a lot of the devs in this game mention older mmo games as inspiration so I am sure you guys remember Ultima Online? You had a full on red player system that basically turned you into a different type of player. Will this game have something like this or is it only that internal system that punishes you for being bad by basically making you completely useless after so long so that you are no longer a threat to even a level 1 critter.

Can someone please link or explain something related to my questions/concerns? I would obviously love to hear from a dev or tester.

Being the bad guy is something a lot of people love doing and have a ton of fun with. But in an MMO, your fun should NEVER come at the expense of others.

You're allowed to kill someone if you don't like them or if you're having a really really bad day and you wanna take it out on someone. But the game limits this with the corruption system for good reason. As I said above, sure u might enjoy going around killing people and being the bad guy, but the players you are killing will not be having as much fun. So a single player's enjoyment isn't worth the negative experience of multiple players.

I think AoC is going as far in the direction of allowing the bad guy type of playstyle, without dampening player experience, as an MMO possibly could, maybe even a bit too far. You need multiple player kills to gain corruption, you can lose corruption by hunting monsters, and you gain no corruption when killing bounty hunters. In fact, most people on the forums are complaining about ways the corruption system WONT be able to stop griefing, not the other way around.

I love pvp, always have. I also enjoy the feeling of being the bad guy, killing the bounty hunters that come to kill me and all of that. But I don't want it to be a playstyle that is encouraged for the reasons that I mentioned above. Asking for a certain type of playstyle that allows you to have fun at the expense of others is a selfish thing.

Vandersexxx

The best bad guys will be the ones who rise through the ranks in a community and then find a way to kill the leaders of a guild or node and steal. Pretend to be a normal player and then strike when no one expects it. I'm hoping to see some real treachery unfold in the future.

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