Question about the handling of the lack of tanks in the trinity system

As the title states, in my experience there is normally a lack of tanks in the trinity system.

As far as I understood the augmentation system, the secondary class doesn't change your class per se, which means a mage stays a mage even if he chooses the tank augmentation. So when I combine the dps class mage as primary with the tank who is "[...] to control a fight, to help the party mitigate incoming damage, and to dictate who is getting hit [...]" I end up with the Spellstone which I identify as a durable control/support mage.

This in conclusion would mean AoC has only one tank class or maybe two if we can count in the summoner if he has viable tanking abilities, which favors the problematic role distribution.

My guess is, that the devs are aware of this problem but I couldn't find anything regarding that so far. For me, it's a huge pain when playing an MMO, so I would like to know how they prevent this from happening? Also, is there a dual spec system like in WoW, which allows you to simply switch between two skill trees?
My questions are probably already answered so thanks in advance, if you can point me in the right direction.

As a bit of additional information where this is coming from; I love to play rogues but often played a tank class because of this problem. My theory is, that if you give the dedicated DPS classes a tank tree and the ability to easily switch between two trees, more people would have a tank spec, as their second tree. Now instead of playing a whole other class, I really would like to have a tank spec, as a second one, on my rogue.

Additionally, I would like to see some new tanking strategies.
For example a "dirty" rogue-tank combination, that deals mainly with single target aggro and has the ability to redirect incoming damage onto clones/illusion.

Or another example would be a mage-tank combination, that is a ranged tank with a lot of CC and or mobility, which has to kite his targets in order to generate a shield or damage reduction buff to tank damage once his targets has reached him, until his CC and mobility abilities come back online, and he is able to kite them again.

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Comments

Songcaller

In my opinion, those with ample amounts of Tanks will win Sieges and Raids. Those without Tanks will lose more Sieges and Raids. Tank is a Hard Counter to AoE, a meat shield in combat, it is a tower of strength and a position of permanence. It will be important to have Tanks. If the game is poorly created and Tanks can't kill whatever they are a Hard Counter to, then few people will opt for Tanks.

We are in the hands of the Devs. Tanks should be able to kill whatever they are a Hard Counter to, everything else they should be able to damage but not necessarily kill. The Balance will be around Groups but if there's a lack of tanks most groups won't be balanced.

I can't say how pivotal tanks will be for certain but in Ashes tanks should feel more useful than simple Flag Carriers in other games.

Noaani

In terms of group content, a single tank and healer is Ashes will be able to take 6 DPS through content, as opposed to the 3 they can take in a game like WoW.

This will have a drastic effect on the number of tanks needed.

darthaden

In Ashes the standard party size is 8 and there's 8 main classes. The priest is the main healer but Bards can also heal to a degree, I'd assume they probably plan on making so the fighter can off tank/ tank lower level content

Varkun

Yes this is one of the reasons I always main a tank. I want to go run a dungeon check tank slot already filled, plus I do actually really enjoy tanking.

Will be interesting to see what class the tank is a hard counter for though.

phdmonster

Varkun wrote: »

Yes this is one of the reasons I always main a tank. I want to go run a dungeon check tank slot already filled, plus I do actually really enjoy tanking.

Will be interesting to see what class the tank is a hard counter for though.

My guess is any physical damage glass cannons like rogues.

B1uefalc0n

Seeing as they literally named a class Tank I'm going to go on a limb and say that's the sole tanking class. I agree that most MMO's that utilize the trinity system typically have a shortage of tanks and often healers as well. I must also add that fewer tanks and healers are needed in groups in comparison to dps. That being said to successfully implement a tank in this type of game is to make players want to play a tank as the role has a lot of responsibility are typically required to be the leader of the group and the most knowledgable of the dungeon this isn't often the case but the expectations are there from the other players in the group.

So given the added responsibility and lack of cool exploding abilities to destroy the mobs as they move through the dungeon it is important in my opinion to make the tanking playstyle fun meaning boss fights that require the tanks to do something cool and have a good time while they are being hammered by some dragon instead of just standing there in a bent-over position waiting for it to be over.

It is also important to mention that is a PvX game meaning PvP is something that will occur all the time this means in order for people to want to play a tank they can not be useless in this aspect of the game they need to be able to hold their own. Im not saying they should be able to go around 1 shotting people but they should be able to take down a character in a timely fashion that is on par with other classes. No one wants to be able to say yea I can kill you it will take 2 hours but I will win. That is boring gameplay and if tanks are considered to be a weak PvP class no one will want to play one as they will lose to 85% percent of this games content.

So here's to hoping that the Dev's get this one right and are able to create fun environments for tanks to thrive and are rewarded for taking on the added responsibilities of being a tank.

Aardvark

B1uefalc0n wrote: »

Seeing as they literally named a class Tank I'm going to go on a limb and say that's the sole tanking class. I agree that most MMO's that utilize the trinity system typically have a shortage of tanks and often healers as well. I must also add that fewer tanks and healers are needed in groups in comparison to dps. That being said to successfully implement a tank in this type of game is to make players want to play a tank as the role has a lot of responsibility are typically required to be the leader of the group and the most knowledgable of the dungeon this isn't often the case but the expectations are there from the other players in the group.

So given the added responsibility and lack of cool exploding abilities to destroy the mobs as they move through the dungeon it is important in my opinion to make the tanking playstyle fun meaning boss fights that require the tanks to do something cool and have a good time while they are being hammered by some dragon instead of just standing there in a bent-over position waiting for it to be over.

It is also important to mention that is a PvX game meaning PvP is something that will occur all the time this means in order for people to want to play a tank they can not be useless in this aspect of the game they need to be able to hold their own. Im not saying they should be able to go around 1 shotting people but they should be able to take down a character in a timely fashion that is on par with other classes. No one wants to be able to say yea I can kill you it will take 2 hours but I will win. That is boring gameplay and if tanks are considered to be a weak PvP class no one will want to play one as they will lose to 85% percent of this games content.

So here's to hoping that the Dev's get this one right and are able to create fun environments for tanks to thrive and are rewarded for taking on the added responsibilities of being a tank.

tank is an archclass and part of 15 classes in this game

Knives1

Thanks for the responses.

Neurath wrote: »

In my opinion, those with ample amounts of Tanks will win Sieges and Raids. Those without Tanks will lose more Sieges and Raids. Tank is a Hard Counter to AoE, a meat shield in combat, it is a tower of strength and a position of permanence. It will be important to have Tanks. If the game is poorly created and Tanks can't kill whatever they are a Hard Counter to, then few people will opt for Tanks.

We are in the hands of the Devs. Tanks should be able to kill whatever they are a Hard Counter to, everything else they should be able to damage but not necessarily kill. The Balance will be around Groups but if there's a lack of tanks most groups won't be balanced.

I can't say how pivotal tanks will be for certain but in Ashes tanks should feel more useful than simple Flag Carriers in other games.

Oh my, I completely forgot about the rock-paper-siccor mechanic mentioned in the wiki while researching this topic. Steven Sharif was quoted there with the following statement:
There will be match ups in 1v1s where one class will be superior to another; and that application should be a rock-paper-scissors dynamic. We want there to be counter-play between the different classes

darthaden wrote: »

In Ashes the standard party size is 8 and there's 8 main classes. The priest is the main healer but Bards can also heal to a degree, I'd assume they probably plan on making so the fighter can off tank/ tank lower level content

The 8 man group was something I honestly didn't know till now and really influences the numbers. I already thought about the fighter class as an off-tank and hope for it.

B1uefalc0n wrote: »

So given the added responsibility and lack of cool exploding abilities to destroy the mobs as they move through the dungeon it is important in my opinion to make the tanking playstyle fun meaning boss fights that require the tanks to do something cool and have a good time while they are being hammered by some dragon instead of just standing there in a bent-over position waiting for it to be over.

I ultimately hope that the devs will come up with different tanking playstyles for a few archetypes. Like you said, having engaging boss mechanics that make the tank do something is also part of the fun, but normally every other/normal fight is bending over and waiting for dps to do their job. Having a new playstyle, like the kiting mechanic mentioned in my original post, would make me personally very intrigued in trying it out.

B1uefalc0n wrote: »

It is also important to mention that is a PvX game meaning PvP is something that will occur all the time this means in order for people to want to play a tank they can not be useless in this aspect of the game they need to be able to hold their own. Im not saying they should be able to go around 1 shotting people but they should be able to take down a character in a timely fashion that is on par with other classes. No one wants to be able to say yea I can kill you it will take 2 hours but I will win. That is boring gameplay and if tanks are considered to be a weak PvP class no one will want to play one as they will lose to 85% percent of this games content.

On the PvP note, I half expect the cheap shot balancing between PvP and PvE by making the tanks defensive skills less effective and his attacks more effective against players. As far as I experienced it, this is mostly the way the balancing is handled...

Aardvark wrote: »

tank is an archclass and part of 15 classes in this game

Yes, but please correct me if I am wrong, as I wrote:

Knives wrote: »

As far as I understood the augmentation system, the secondary class doesn't change your class per se, which means a mage stays a mage even if he chooses the tank augmentation.

LPsyKongroo

I dunno about you, but personally I really love when games have extremely clear distinctions between class types. When I first heard that there would be 64 total possible classes, that got me more hyped than anything else I'd heard about this game. I like it when character creation means something; I want the Templar to have vastly different abilities and fighting styles from the Battle Mage, for example.

I guess this is why I'm always a bit disappointed when I hear that an MMO will use the trinity system, because this doesn't often leave for a lot of variance between classes. A tank in most games will still end up being able to deal decent amounts of damage, while also being able to heal themselves with certain skills, on top of being hard to bring down and good at managing aggro. I find that kind of design boring and linear, with no real difference between one subclass and another, for the sake of "balance".

Obviously every class and character should still be able to complete the game's content and level up, gather, etc. on their own, but I'd rather have a smaller number of classes with much greater variance between them over a large number of classes with only a few differing abilities. If AoC can create 64 classes AND have all of them vastly different from each other in terms of gameplay, that would be a huge plus in my book.

Roymachine

In the same way that the Cleric is the main healer while Bard can also heal, but to a different degree, on top of the fact that the game largely follows the holy trinity of game archetypes, one can assume that Cleric is main healer, Bard is off healer, Tank is main tank, Fighter (most likely) is off tank.

There will also be many flavors of tanks, fighters, clerics, and bards due to the secondary classes, so while there is only one 'Tank' archetype, there will be many different ways to build and play them.

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