DPS Meter Megathread

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

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Speed

glad there wont be one as well

jsolo

Also glad there no dps meters. I hope they perma ban people who try to break rules and use addon or dps meters

GazerGrazer

Haraxa wrote: »

Because the benefit does, in my experience, not outweigh the harm. Even in our raid group we had players that were fixated on their dps. This happened in a game (WoW), in which many boss fights are not dps-races.
In most of the random groups I joined, the DPS-Meter was seen as a measurement of skill. So if something went wrong, even in movement-fights, the people watched the DPS-Meter. Even in 5-man-Dungeons dps-shaming became a thing. As a Tank-Main I started to avoid random groups, as there were to many players prioritizing their dps over things l like aggro.
So my first argument would be: There are too much player that use a DPS-Meter in the wrong way, as it sets wrong incentives, if you just think "more dps = better" (what too many players do).

If you have a bad leader kicking people for the wrong reason, their still not going to down the boss. Without a damage meter you end up kicking the person with the most boss damage because their build isn't meta, but no one can tell hes out performing everyone. Though the most likely scenario is you can't figure out why you can't down the boss, and the group quits trying to complain the boss is unkillable.

Haraxa wrote: »

The second argument is: What you can measure, matters more!
In a game like AoC, that plans to have true support classes, there will be another problem. Often times the DPS-Meter only tells a fracture of the story. In a balanced game, pure DPS-Combinations will be stronger than DPS+Support or Support+DPS specs. As you cannot measure support so easily as you can dps, a dps-meter could create a more dps-focused environment. In 15 years of gameplay, I never saw a player post a dispell ranking at the end of a fight an bragging about it. (I myself as a raid leader posted some after some messy fights, though ;-))
I would argue, that a dps-meter sets false incentives in this regard, too. As it seems to be a simple thing to compare and to judge player skills with it, the playerbase will most likely will use it at the expense of hybrid-classes.

If there is a encounter where dispels matter, the players should brag about their dispels. Instead you'll not know who is dispelling unless everyone is honest (I'm sorry a world where everyone is honest doesn't exsist).
I've bragged about my dispels on my warlock because I out performed the healers on dispels. Without the meter, you'll complain that the boss is unkillable because there isn't enough dispels in the game, instead of seeing half your healers aren't dispelling.

Haraxa wrote: »

The third argument is a more nostalgic one:
As a raid leader and as a player you can get lost in numbers. If you have this tool available, you will use it. But it breaks down the whole experience into little performance pieces, that are totaly seperated from playing the game. It is a post-try-analysis. There were situations in which we looked into the numbers longer, than actually fighting the boss. Not having a dps-meter means for me, that you have to do other things to improve your gameplay and getting a feeling of the best rotation etc.
And as a raid leader, I have to rely more on watching the raid performing and communicating with the players.

Do you know how many tests in college that I FELT I had failed and got an A on? Do you know how many times I've been pulled over when I FELT I was going the speed limit on? I don't think I need to give more examples. Feeling like you're doing better, doesn't mean you're doing better. Spamming my only magic spell on my hunter because I have built a fully arcane hunter may feel better, but I'm sure, it's not.

Haraxa wrote: »

The last argument: Every analysis tool impacts the design process, as it forces the designers to make bosses harder or devaluate the content. This makes such addons mandatory more often than not.
Let's say, as a game designer you aim at a boss difficulty of 100 at the end, because this is the challenging level of difficulty. With no add-ons 100=100. If you allow helpful add-ons, that ease a fight by 30%, the difficulty level now is at 70 for addon users. If the add-ons get more popular, you have to make the bosses more difficult, if you want the players have a challenging experience. By doing so, you make it harder for everyone to succeed without these add-ons.
More an more guilds will require you to use these add-ons. Thats how it went in WoW. You have very complex fights and quasi mandatory addons. If you had less effective tools in fight and afterwards, I guess the fights would not be so complex in current WoW.

I'm not arguing to have tons of addons. I'm arguing to have a built in damage meter. That way people can see how well they're performing instead of just feeling like they're performing better.

I want groups to be able to identify what is holding them back. I don't want groups to just say a boss is unkillable and give up.

Beekeeper

Agreed, DPS meters just abstract the game down way too much. It creates a toxic atmosphere where playing the game as intended or in the most fun way gets pushed aside to force a meta based on half-baked info like "this class has the most dps in this rotation". That's just an awful way to interact with what is trying to be a living, breathing world.

Noaani

BlackBrony wrote: »

I'd argue for a Combat tracker in game just so people don't have to use add ons. But even if there's a combat tracker ingame people will still use an external addon because they want more information.

That is as good a reason to want one as any.

The people I know that are building trackers for Ashes are only building them because there may not be one if they don't.

Essentially, they *will* have a tracker to use.

Both groups I know doing this would happily stop development on them if Intrepid released an in game tool that allowed for analyzing raid encounter pulls, and allowed players to assess different builds and gear options.

If those two things are catered for, the amount of work needed to build a tracker for what ever is left is simply not worth it.

In my opinion combat trackers trivialize lots of encounters, make it easier and then people complain there's no content. All you have to do to figure out what it's wrong is look at the numbers.
Then I, as a non raider nor min-maxer, will have to follow your class guide because it's the meta, even if I don't fully understand it, nor should I.
I don't need to know how everything works to the decimal number.

This is only true if the game develops content without keeping in mind that players have trackers - which is another advantage to having them in game rather than ad an addon.

GazerGrazer

jsolo wrote: »

Also glad there no dps meters. I hope they perma ban people who try to break rules and use addon or dps meters

Go play FF14. They do that. Guess what? Everyone still uses a damage meter, but instead of trying to help you improve your DPS, they just kick you without giving you a reason. Square Enix doesn't ban the group leader because they have no evidence of the 3rd party damage meter. Now you're getting kicked from every group after the first wipe and you'll never know why.

Seriously, go play FF14. They have a no damage meter policy. You will get banned if you're caught using one. Tell me that's more fun than just allowing the meter.

StevenSharif

Hello friends! I love reading all of the comments and opinions here. There was also a very large thread on dps meters A little while back, where I felt Noaani articulated the position in favor of DPS meters very well.

My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed ❤️

BlackBrony

noaani wrote: »

This is only true if the game develops content without keeping in mind that players have trackers - which is another advantage to having them in game rather than ad an addon.

Isn't this causing less players to raid or experience content? Imagine trying to join a guild and you get dumped 3 guides:

- 1 for your class, because you're not using the meta class and its rotation
- 1 on the raid boss explaining when you're supposed to hit your heavy rotation because X support classed activated X ability that amplifies damage
- 1 on gear because clearly you're not using the correct augments

I understand this from a hardcore pure PvE standpoint, but if Devs have to keep in mind that people are using Add ons it means the gap between hardcore and not so much hardcore keeps widening, forcing Developers to create content for less people, that still demand even more challenging raids.

I think it's a way to set a future which you're destined to fail in, because you keep creating content that needs to keep in mind the use of Combat Trackers that nullify many things that would require more time to learn in a Trial & Error basis vs having all the information laid out after just a couple of tools.

And I believe this makes joining more people to raids less likely.
I have raided, not sure if hardcore, but I had to have certain DPS and certain gear. Only raided in Rift during Storm Legion, and it was fun, and healing, and killing Crucia felt great.

But I don't think in "people that don't put the effort". Some people are just bad, poorly coordinated and even if they practice a lot, they won't make it. Some things are just out of our grasp. One thing is maybe people noticing, another one is just seeing that really low number that despite your efforts doesn't improve.

Should they raid? Well, in Steven's world they might have a chance, because average people could slip through, while in a Combat Tracker world would be impossible, all of their failures are for everyone to see.

GazerGrazer

StevenSharif wrote: »

Hello friends! I love reading all of the comments and opinions here. There was also a very large thread on dps meters A little while back, where I felt Noanni articulated the position in favor of DPS meters very well.

My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed ❤️

This makes me the big sad. I will still try the game because I love MMOs, but this makes me worried. I'll go in with an open mind, and hope you prove me wrong.

Linstead

GazerGrazer wrote: »

I want groups to be able to identify what is holding them back. I don't want groups to just say a boss is unkillable and give up.

A prime example of this would be how back in Vanilla, Ion Hazzikostas (the current game director of WoW), with his guild Elitist Jerks theorized that the boss C'thun was "mathematically impossible" to kill and requested that Blizzard retune the boss. This is also how he got his job at Blizzard.

Nowadays, we know for 100% certainty that he is completely wrong, because private servers have proved that not only is the boss, unnerfed, extremely killable, but they even buff the boss on private servers because players are just that much better.

The difference is they didn't have the addons and information that we have in 2020. If they had that knowledge, they wouldn't have given up, they would have had to get better, and Blizzard wouldn't have had to nerf the boss.

DarkLorde

I personally have found in the past playing with certain groups the raid leader is pretty relaxed (dps doesn't matter anyway). However, in more competitive groups they do care. My question is why not just give competitive groups the option to use a DPS meter? You don't have to use a DPS meter or even be in a group that monitors DPS. And if they do... Be reasonable.

Shoelid

I'm a little bit torn on damage meters.

Often times I find damage meters to be the same as medals in Overwatch. Sure it shows who has the most damage dealt, but in a team environment most damage != best performance. Nobody wants the person who stands in fire to pad their dps numbers. It often becomes a matter of dick measuring rather than being the best teammate.

I've also had experiences where they brought a lot of satisfaction. Practicing rotations on a target dummy and slowly seeing your performance get better and better. Grinding for hours to get my legendary cape in WoW and immediately seeing a huge boost (granted, you don't need a meter to see that). I've also had guild members who struggled one week, came back the next week and topped the charts. Everybody notices it and hypes them up and it's a great time.

I think AoC, with its augment system, will be different. We don't know any specifics yet, but it seems to me that choosing tank would boost survivability rather than damage. Choosing things like mage/ranger/fighter would probably increase your damage output. As Steven Sharif said, the mechanic serves to turn the dial a bit between the classes. Sure you can go for maximum damage output with your mage/mage build but is that what's best for the team? We don't know yet.

This isn't to say that there should be no 'benchmarking' tools in the game, because there definitely should. Otherwise people would just test how fast they kill a monster with a convenient amount of HP, which is both super inconvenient and a little immersion breaking. I would like these tools to be in town with options for lots of different group sizes.

Linstead

Damage meters also give competitive PvE players a reason to log in after clearing content. Competing for the #1 parse on a boss is fun for them.

For a game that offers a complex variety of ways to play and progress, I don't see how the simple addition of a combat tracker would develop a meta. It does in WoW, because WoW only has dungeon/raid PvE content.

GazerGrazer

Linstead wrote: »

Damage meters also give competitive PvE players a reason to log in after clearing content. Competing for the #1 parse on a boss is fun for them.

For a game that offers a complex variety of ways to play and progress, I don't see how the simple addition of a combat tracker would develop a meta. It does in WoW, because WoW only has dungeon/raid PvE content.

There's going to be a meta no matter what. The most popular guide on how to down a boss is going to explain why you need to bring certain classes. Now your meta is based on opinions of the guides' creator instead of actual data.

Aisa Aax

I am strongly against dps meters, logs, parsers and any such stuff.
They make people too focused on numbers, to the point of doing sub-optimal things chasing that damage - like cleaving/AOE the adds instead of focusing them down, for example.

I do, however, feel, that you could implement something like a training dummy encounter that measures your output. Or those training arenas in FFXIV that give you a timed encounter that trains certain aspects. The very base ones are dps/healing dummies. On more complex arenas the dummy will cast spells that you need to dodge or interrupt, etc, so you can train to improve your performance in a more dynamic situation.

tupactopus

All I want a meter for is to know if my class is undertuned compared to the others I'm playing with.

If I go into a boss encounter and we kill it no problems and I don't have a meter, I'll never know that even though I was pressing all my buttons, my class just isn't doing as much as someone else.

I'll then go on to other content like pvp, arena for example, and then just get utterly wasted by someone playing a class that deals more damage than I do, and I'll never understand why.

You'll have to forgive me for not trusting the devs to balance classes by themselves with no player oversight, I've been hurt before :'(

Noaani

StevenSharif wrote: »

Hello friends! I love reading all of the comments and opinions here. There was also a very large thread on dps meters A little while back, where I felt Noanni articulated the position in favor of DPS meters very well.

My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed ❤️

@StevenSharif

You spelt my name wrong.

This leaves the last real question as; when there are trackers to be used, will their use be against the EULA/ToS, and as such not able to be openly discussed in game or on the forums - or are you ok with people having and using trackers they are able to get working around the measures you will have in place?

WMC51

There is a damage meter.

Find a spot with lots of the same enemies. Kill them with different combos or gear sets and see which kills faster.

WMC51

noaani wrote: »

StevenSharif wrote: »

Hello friends! I love reading all of the comments and opinions here. There was also a very large thread on dps meters A little while back, where I felt Noanni articulated the position in favor of DPS meters very well.

My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed ❤️

@StevenSharif

You spelt my name wrong.

This leaves the last real question as; when there are trackers to be used, will their use be against the EULA/ToS, and as such not able to be openly discussed in hame or on the forums - or are you ok with people having and using trackers they are able to get working around the measures you will have in place?

ROFL. Hahaha.

If we use add-ons after you banned them and talk about it on the forums will we get in trouble???

Think about it for a second while you read...

Linstead

WMC51 wrote: »

There is a damage meter.

Find a spot with lots of the same enemies. Kill them with different combos or gear sets and see which kills faster.

There is a difference though. You can't measure damage over a 5-10 minute encounter with a burst dps on a small enemy that takes 10-20 seconds to kill. I doubt there will be soloable enemies that would take the same time as a raid encounter.

You also won't be able to take boss defensive mechanics and resistances into account.

Also how will healers or tanks test their HPS/TPS?

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