DPS Meter Megathread

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

I’ve instructed the mods to focus any dps meter threads into a single mega thread to help focus and centralize the discussion 👍

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tupactopus

WMC51 wrote: »

There is a damage meter.

Find a spot with lots of the same enemies. Kill them with different combos or gear sets and see which kills faster.

People are going to record and analyze the damage they do on various classes, data will be aggregated and a tier list WILL come out. It is inevitable.

All you're doing is having people put a lot of work into sub optimal characters just to hear they made a mistake.

I completely understand the idea of playing a class because its fun. I like that idea; however, it's 2020. Gamers have come a LONG way. There is a large population of gamers who play MMOs because they want to push the limit of their characters and playstyles instead of being average andys.

The tier list will come out.

Kekals

The biggest problem with banning dps meters and parses is that it leads people to be oblivious to problems they may have. Whether that be spec, gear, rotation, or whatever, if there is nothing there to tell the player how they are doing then they will just never know. I understand that not everyone wants to min/max, nor should they have to but they should at least have an idea of where they stand compared to others.

Coming from FFXIV where dps meters are taboo, it did not make anyone nicer. It just means instead of kicking individuals, whole groups disband. They still yell at people for gear, mechanics, not pulling big enough groups, healers that don't also dps, or whatever else they decide to be mad about that day.

What does make the community a little more civil in FFXIV is the no nonsense policy Square Enix takes when it comes to toxic behavior. DPS meters are not the hill to die on.

Noaani

WMC51 wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

StevenSharif wrote: »

Hello friends! I love reading all of the comments and opinions here. There was also a very large thread on dps meters A little while back, where I felt Noanni articulated the position in favor of DPS meters very well.

My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed ❤️

@StevenSharif

You spelt my name wrong.

This leaves the last real question as; when there are trackers to be used, will their use be against the EULA/ToS, and as such not able to be openly discussed in hame or on the forums - or are you ok with people having and using trackers they are able to get working around the measures you will have in place?

ROFL. Hahaha.

If we use add-ons after you banned them and talk about it on the forums will we get in trouble???

Think about it for a second while you read...

There is a difference between not allowing something, and actively taking action on that thing.

TheRealDex

There won't be DPS meter. There won't be party finders. There won't be anything going against the social aspect. This isn't a competition, it's a game.

Linstead

TheRealDexta wrote: »

There won't be DPS meter. There won't be party finders. There won't be anything going against the social aspect.

Comparing apples and oranges.

DPS meters do not stop players from talking about rotations/skillsets/gear/etc.

Caeryl

StevenSharif wrote: »

Hello friends! I love reading all of the comments and opinions here. There was also a very large thread on dps meters A little while back, where I felt Noaani articulated the position in favor of DPS meters very well.

My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed ❤️

That’s disappointing you won’t even respond to the massive benefits objective information brings. I do hope you realize that this puts a big limit what players will be able to achieve in the game, especially if you don’t give players actual combat feedback.

Noaani

TheRealDexta wrote: »

There won't be DPS meter. There won't be party finders. There won't be anything going against the social aspect.

Combat trackers have no effect on any social aspect of any game.

All those times people have kicked you out of a group or what ever - they would have kicked someone out of that group anyway, because it makes them feel good.

A combat tracker was just an easier excuse.

Linstead

Another problem my friend brought up would be that it discourages people from trying new builds/sets of skills other than cookie cutter ones we will end up seeing in internet guides, because without the easy access to objective data they will not want to pursue a new path or build since it will require a bunch of testing and hoops to jump through.

All in all, this hurts the casual player more than helping them, because the competitive players will go through the effort to find the best possible setups regardless of having combat trackers or not.

If a player has to test a new build religiously for hours and hours, only to find out it's worse, then it's a bunch of wasted effort, when having a combat tracker to begin with would minimize the time spent doing such menial tasks. Everyone will just use some random popular youtuber's/guide maker's cookie cutter build and "follow the fold" as they say.

Noaani

Linstead wrote: »

Another problem my friend brought up would be that it discourages people from trying new builds/sets of skills other than cookie cutter ones we will end up seeing in internet guides, because without the easy access to objective data they will not want to pursue a new path or build since it will require a bunch of testing and hoops to jump through.

All in all, this hurts the casual player more than helping them, because the competitive players will go through the effort to find the best possible setups regardless of having combat trackers or not.

If a player has to test a new build religiously for hours and hours, only to find out it's worse, then it's a bunch of wasted effort, when having a combat tracker to begin with would minimize the time spent doing such menial tasks. Everyone will just use some random popular youtuber's/guide maker's cookie cutter build and "follow the fold" as they say.

These are all things that have been bought up in the other threads on this topic - such threads go back almost 18 months.

This means that these are things that Intrepid seems to be ok with.

While I am the first to say that this is Stevens game and his decision, I do find that the decision made seems somewhat counter to the rest of the game. Player agency seems to be of the utmost importance in Ashes - except in combat.

Linstead

Yeah, I can appreciate that they are headstrong in their ideals and values (instead of bending the knee as other developers do), and I'll still play the game either way because I will be a competitive person who will grind out such things and find my own way, but the reasons to not have them in seem lackluster. If they want to combat toxicity, it's not like this will help in any ways, as pointed out by other people and other games that do not have combat trackers people will find ways to be toxic regardless or they will end up kicking you from groups based on some subjective internet guide with no factual evidence of the archetype being better or worse than others.

And even in games with combat trackers, it doesn't stop people from playing what they want to play even if it's unoptimal. There are still people playing ret paladin and feral druid in Classic WoW and we've known those specs are absolutely horrendous for 16 years. Do they get ostracized sometimes? Yeah, they do. Are they completely incapable of playing the game? No, they aren't.

Genaro

GazerGrazer wrote: »

StevenSharif wrote: »

Hello friends! I love reading all of the comments and opinions here. There was also a very large thread on dps meters A little while back, where I felt Noanni articulated the position in favor of DPS meters very well.

My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed ❤️

This makes me the big sad. I will still try the game because I love MMOs, but this makes me worried. I'll go in with an open mind, and hope you prove me wrong.

Imagine not playing an amazing game because it does not have a feature that shows a number on your screen telling if you are 'good' or 'bad'.

noaani wrote: »

TheRealDexta wrote: »

There won't be DPS meter. There won't be party finders. There won't be anything going against the social aspect.

Combat trackers have no effect on any social aspect of any game.

All those times people have kicked you out of a group or what ever - they would have kicked someone out of that group anyway, because it makes them feel good.

A combat tracker was just an easier excuse.

Right in being wrong. Yes, people can be kicked out/replaced for being bad at the game even if the game doesn't have a combat tracker. And, as you said yourself, a DPS meter shows, intensifies and speeds up this process of getting '/kick', in other words, 'ease' the decision. So yeah, they have a DIRECT impact in the social aspect by interfering in the decision making of the party/raid leader. Plus, it also facilitates the game to gravitate towards optimization as a rule, not as a tool.

Noaani

lokympg wrote: »

Right in being wrong. Yes, people can be kicked out/replaced for being bad at the game even if the game doesn't have a combat tracker. And, as you said yourself, a DPS meter shows, intensifies and speeds up this process of getting '/kick', in other words, 'ease' the decision. So yeah, they have a DIRECT impact in the social aspect by interfering in the decision making of the party/raid leader. Plus, it also facilitates the game to gravitate towards optimization as a rule, not as a tool.

There is something very wrong with this logic.

If a player is going to kick someone from a group, they are going to kick someone from a group.

If a player is not going to kick someone fro a group, they are not going to kick someone from a group.

If a game doesn't have combat trackers the kind of people that would kick others out of groups due to a combat tracker, that person would instead be kicking or not inviting people based on their class, or their specific build, or their social organization, or their religion.

Basically, people that exclude will exclude, people that include will include, and anyone that thinks a combat tracker can ever have any impact on any of that really needs to get out and meet more people.

Atama

noaani wrote: »

lokympg wrote: »

Right in being wrong. Yes, people can be kicked out/replaced for being bad at the game even if the game doesn't have a combat tracker. And, as you said yourself, a DPS meter shows, intensifies and speeds up this process of getting '/kick', in other words, 'ease' the decision. So yeah, they have a DIRECT impact in the social aspect by interfering in the decision making of the party/raid leader. Plus, it also facilitates the game to gravitate towards optimization as a rule, not as a tool.

There is something very wrong with this logic.

If a player is going to kick someone from a group, they are going to kick someone from a group.

If a player is not going to kick someone fro a group, they are not going to kick someone from a group.

If a game doesn't have combat trackers the kind of people that would kick others out of groups due to a combat tracker, that person would instead be kicking or not inviting people based on their class, or their specific build, or their social organization, or their religion.

Basically, people that exclude will exclude, people that include will include, and anyone that thinks a combat tracker can ever have any impact on any of that really needs to get out and meet more people.

Yes and no. Playing devil's advocate here... I do agree that people who have the mindset to kick people who aren't putting out enough DPS in their opinion are likely to do that for any excuse they find. And there are many, many ways a person may nitpick to kick out people they don't like.

But a DPS meter has the potential to put that in their face, and is an incentive to make them do it. Let's say you get in a small PUG, and you are halfway through some content and everything is going relatively okay... You are moving at a reasonable pace, nobody has died (or come close to it), there is no drama about loot, it's mellow. Alpha Broseph, King of D00Ds, is keeping quiet since nobody has slipped up.

Change the situation to having a damage meter. Everything is the same, except for some reason one person is doing about 2/3 the DPS as the rest of the group. It's clearly not a problem, but Alpha Broseph starts ranting about how much faster things would be if this slacker was pulling their weight, and starts arguing to kick them until it becomes disruptive and that person leaves the group voluntarily to not put up with it anymore, or the rest of the group agrees to kick the person lagging behind.

In either case, Alpha Broseph is the same jerk but they were given a reason to act on being a jerk with the meter. This is the scenario that I assume most people are worried about, and I have to say it isn't totally far-fetched. I assume it has happened at some point. However, I've been playing MMOs for over 2 decades now, and many of those games had DPS meters, and I've never experienced this. I have to believe it's rare. I've dealt with many, MANY toxic people, and I've been kicked before for frivolous reasons (and a few times for legit ones, I'm not perfect). But I've never been kicked for lacking DPS. Not once.

(Gear score, on the other hand...)

Linstead

Atama wrote: »

(Gear score, on the other hand...)

Running ICC 10man Normal mode. 6.5k gs and link "Heroic: Fall of the Lich King (25 player)" pst

Noaani

Atama wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

lokympg wrote: »

Right in being wrong. Yes, people can be kicked out/replaced for being bad at the game even if the game doesn't have a combat tracker. And, as you said yourself, a DPS meter shows, intensifies and speeds up this process of getting '/kick', in other words, 'ease' the decision. So yeah, they have a DIRECT impact in the social aspect by interfering in the decision making of the party/raid leader. Plus, it also facilitates the game to gravitate towards optimization as a rule, not as a tool.

There is something very wrong with this logic.

If a player is going to kick someone from a group, they are going to kick someone from a group.

If a player is not going to kick someone fro a group, they are not going to kick someone from a group.

If a game doesn't have combat trackers the kind of people that would kick others out of groups due to a combat tracker, that person would instead be kicking or not inviting people based on their class, or their specific build, or their social organization, or their religion.

Basically, people that exclude will exclude, people that include will include, and anyone that thinks a combat tracker can ever have any impact on any of that really needs to get out and meet more people.

Yes and no. Playing devil's advocate here... I do agree that people who have the mindset to kick people who aren't putting out enough DPS in their opinion are likely to do that for any excuse they find. And there are many, many ways a person may nitpick to kick out people they don't like.

But a DPS meter has the potential to put that in their face, and is an incentive to make them do it. Let's say you get in a small PUG, and you are halfway through some content and everything is going relatively okay... You are moving at a reasonable pace, nobody has died (or come close to it), there is no drama about loot, it's mellow. Alpha Broseph, King of D00Ds, is keeping quiet since nobody has slipped up.

Change the situation to having a damage meter. Everything is the same, except for some reason one person is doing about 2/3 the DPS as the rest of the group. It's clearly not a problem, but Alpha Broseph starts ranting about how much faster things would be if this slacker was pulling their weight, and starts arguing to kick them until it becomes disruptive and that person leaves the group voluntarily to not put up with it anymore, or the rest of the group agrees to kick the person lagging behind.

In either case, Alpha Broseph is the same jerk but they were given a reason to act on being a jerk with the meter. This is the scenario that I assume most people are worried about, and I have to say it isn't totally far-fetched. I assume it has happened at some point. However, I've been playing MMOs for over 2 decades now, and many of those games had DPS meters, and I've never experienced this. I have to believe it's rare. I've dealt with many, MANY toxic people, and I've been kicked before for frivolous reasons (and a few times for legit ones, I'm not perfect). But I've never been kicked for lacking DPS. Not once.

(Gear score, on the other hand...)

This guy just sounds like trouble - even just his name!

In this situation, the group is going to go much, much faster with the person doing less DPS than the others than it would without that person, as since there is no automated group finder, there is no real way to get another player to the group. It is easy to boot someone if you know there is a queue of players behind them waiting for content that can be ported instantly to you.

Now, one could argue that the family summons may facilitate this, depending on how that pans out. But if this is the case, I would then argue that the reason that player was kicked from the group was due to the summon ability, not the combat tracker.

halbarz

Caeryl wrote: »

StevenSharif wrote: »

Hello friends! I love reading all of the comments and opinions here. There was also a very large thread on dps meters A little while back, where I felt Noaani articulated the position in favor of DPS meters very well.

My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed ❤️

That’s disappointing you won’t even respond to the massive benefits objective information brings. I do hope you realize that this puts a big limit what players will be able to achieve in the game, especially if you don’t give players actual combat feedback.

saying that it puts limits on what players can achieve or that they would not try out different builds is ridiculous.

By trail and error, they can try out different builds, craft their own setup and see what feels right.
If a player can only do this because a DPS meter is their source of information then that player is the problem, not the game. Besides that having a DPS meter that would only show your damage and etc, would lead to a lot of jerks asking for screenshots, etc. before you can join. Lff would be full of looking for ranger xxx dps+ only!

It is a useful tool for many people, but having one in place also makes the game feel very different.
Besides that addons and DPS meters have made it so that content is burned through faster. A lot of games have suffered because of this and some saw a drop in player base because they get bored.

Trail and error when it comes to your build, dungeons, raids, etc. is part of the game it is content and yes also makes it so that content will be relevant for a longer time as it would not be cleared in 1.2.3

Hardcore guilds that claim they are the best of the best but cannot figure out their build on their own or by testing stuff out .... might not be as good as you think

(my opinion)

Caeryl

halbarz wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

StevenSharif wrote: »

Hello friends! I love reading all of the comments and opinions here. There was also a very large thread on dps meters A little while back, where I felt Noaani articulated the position in favor of DPS meters very well.

My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed ❤️

That’s disappointing you won’t even respond to the massive benefits objective information brings. I do hope you realize that this puts a big limit what players will be able to achieve in the game, especially if you don’t give players actual combat feedback.

saying that it puts limits on what players can achieve or that they would not try out different builds is ridiculous.

By trail and error, they can try out different builds, craft their own setup and see what feels right.
If a player can only do this because a DPS meter is their source of information then that player is the problem, not the game.

It is a useful tool for many people, but having one in place also makes the game feel very different.
Besides that addons and DPS meters have made it so that content is burned through faster. A lot of games have suffered because of this and some saw a drop in player base because they get bored.

Trail and error when it comes to your build, dungeons, raids, etc. is part of the game it is content and yes also makes it so that content will be relevant for a longer time as it would not be cleared in 1.2.3

Hardcore guilds that claim they are the best of the best but cannot figure out their build on their own or by testing stuff out .... might not be as good as you think (my opinion)

If there is no object feedback, how exactly is anyone supposed to know if that new build is any better than the old one? You can’t do “trial and error” without any feedback on what actually works. And if there is combat feedback, then other people can, will, and should use combat tracking software to make informed decision on how to approach content.

Noaani

halbarz wrote: »

A lot of games have suffered because of this and some saw a drop in player base because they get bored.

Ashes will see fewer people pick up the game based on this decision.

Every serious PvE guild is now looking elsewhere.

halbarz

noaani wrote: »

TheRealDexta wrote: »

There won't be DPS meter. There won't be party finders. There won't be anything going against the social aspect.

Combat trackers have no effect on any social aspect of any game.

All those times people have kicked you out of a group or what ever - they would have kicked someone out of that group anyway, because it makes them feel good.

A combat tracker was just an easier excuse.

while we made have a different opinion on DPS meters you have made some good points in the past.

saying that combat trackers have no effect on the social aspects of the game, I do not agree at all.

The fact that they use it as an excuse like you say is exactly that. Kicking will then also trigger some people that do not use it and it becomes another episode of desperate housewives.

If a meter would be in the game, you might be ok with having some people in your group that don't hit X DPS.
Even having an individual meter,: screenshots required or lfg with ranger needed X dps+ only.
This takes away the accessibility for newbies that join the game later or take longer to level.

You seem like a really reasonable person, so yes you might not be your typical DPS meter jerk but many others will be exactly that.

In the past ( i think it was you) you mentioned a guild based meter that only the leader/officers could use in guild groups.
- If this would mean that this guild would have to invest their points into PVE instead of size or buffs sure why not.
- This leader/officer should only be able to see the guild members DPS in that party (even if someone external joins)
- Only 1 guild can be joined at a time with an X amount of days cooldown in between changing guild.
- DPS meter should be exactly as it says showing DPS, not an aggro meter.
- Can only be used within instanced Pve!
- The information shown can not be extracted or logged, it should solely support that guild during the encounter itself.

I believe that this solution would benefit everyone, it gives hardcore guilds the option to go full PVE in their journey/adventure in the game. It would not affect the open-world due to being instanced only, doesn't affect PvP, would not affect random groups, (pugs), or newbies that would join the game later on.

Potato Basket

Wouldn't players be able to create their dps meters and add-ons eventually regardless of Intrepid's support?

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