DPS Meter Megathread

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

I’ve instructed the mods to focus any dps meter threads into a single mega thread to help focus and centralize the discussion 👍

Find more posts tagged with

Staff

Comments

Deztox

Aisa Aax wrote: »

It is almost impossible to get into a high-tier pug in wow if you are not a meta spec.

Now tell me. What is more cancer for the game - people playing sub-optimally or jerks that look at other players' dps constantly and kick/mock them for it?

No thanks. Dps meters and logs ruin games, period.
Instead of PLAYING people start chasing after numbers and making others do the same.

The entires game AoC in PvE encounters is a function of how well you play throughout the Dungeon, so if you want massive legendaries you would want to strive for the best performance if you are going after gear. Some people find a lot of enjoyment through this process of progression.

First of all, getting into pugs in WoW is NOT an issue at all. However, high tier PUG's that clear fast and smooth of course want you to be on par with the rest of the team? What is seriously wrong with that? Some people that want to push and perform don't like the idea of carrying people that haven't at least put in the minimum effort to be "good"... These kinds of things are not welfare. If you want to play a Non-Meta build then go join a non-top tier PUG? Easy as that.

Anyways, 100% agree with @noaani it would be the best thing to have something to look at after a fight and thus not something that is part of the gameplay/UI while fighting an encounter - and leaving it out just forces players to be guessing..

Noaani

Been talking to a few people that I've gamed with over the past couple of decades - people with similar desires in their MMO to myself - and told them about a few things that have happened here over the last few days.

I've told them about the family summoning thing, and how ripe for outright abuse it is. I've told them about how the community has pointed out all the flaws, and provided some suggestions on ways to avoid those flaws. I have also told them that this system is going to go to alpha at least, and will probably make it to the released game in some form or another - even though no matter what form it takes it will be abused. I also pointed out that there are indeed a small number of players that will make use of it as intended.

I also told these people about the marrage system. The general respose to that was something along the lines of "lulwhat?" A system like that being worth having development time put in to it before the game releases seems like an odd priority. But again, I pointed out that there are people that will use it.

Then I told them about the combat tracker, about how players came together and came up with ways to negate all percived issues with it - yet Intrepid still weren't going to have one, and were going to go out of their way to make it hard to use one with the game. Even though I told these people that there will be a third party one made for the game at some point either during beta or just after launch (which there will), I also got a similar reply from most of these people.

That reply was "fuck you". Not to me (nor from me), not the game, but specifically to the creative director.

The general concensus there - that I have to agree with based on actions - is that Intrepid are happy to cater to casual gamers and give them systems, happy to cater to hardcore RP'ers, and give them system, but are not willing at all to cater to hardcore PvE MMO players.

Now, to be fair, none of these people are actually upset about catering to casual gamers or full on RP'ers. Most of these people have been in MMO's about as long as me, and know that it takes all sorts to make an interesting community. The issue they all have is the complete lack of support for the portion of that diverse community that they (and I) inhabit.

Basically, they are looking at this as if Intrepid are giving them the finger and telling them to fuck off - which is largely what they plan to do.

StevenSharif

noaani wrote: »

That reply was "fuck you". Not to me (nor from me), not the game, but specifically to the creative director.

👍

Lostforever

The thing I don't understand is that how can you on hand say "not everyone is winner and we don't give participation trophy" and then say DPS meters are toxic? There is huge contradiction there or am I missing something?

If players can't "see"/"measure" other players performance, then effectively we are giving everyone "participation trophy". If I am going to run the WW first hard core guild, I need to know the performance of my raid force? Or we is AoC now against hard core players and guilds?

Also AoC is PvP game and majority of player toxicity is going to come from PvP, and toxicity from DPS meters are least of your concern. So if you are worried about toxicity in games maybe we should get rid of PvP from the game?

Lostforever

StevenSharif wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

That reply was "fuck you". Not to me (nor from me), not the game, but specifically to the creative director.

👍

Hi Steven,

I am hard core PvE player who loves to min/max my character and performance. I love going through my combat logs and analysis them to improve my performance. I understand there will be no in built dps meters but do you plan to log combat text to a log so that we can go through them at later time?

I come from Everquest 2 (many of your developers worked on that game) and that game does not have in built dps meters but it has detailed combat log. So you plan to do something like this please?

Thanks

Noaani

Lostforever wrote: »

is AoC now against hard core players and guilds?

This seems to be the case, to be honest.

There is a lot about this decision that doesn't make much sense.

The logic doesn't hold from a toxicity perspective.
It doesn't hold from a player agency perspective.
It doesn't hold from an inclusivity perspective.

The only perspective it makes sense from is a "his game, his choice" perspective. But even then, you would think there would be some logic in the choice.

StevenSharif

Lostforever wrote: »

StevenSharif wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

That reply was "fuck you". Not to me (nor from me), not the game, but specifically to the creative director.

👍

Hi Steven,

I am hard core PvE player who loves to min/max my character and performance. I love going through my combat logs and analysis them to improve my performance. I understand there will be no in built dps meters but do you plan to log combat text to a log so that we can go through them at later time?

I come from Everquest 2 (many of your developers worked on that game) and that game does not have in built dps meters but it has detailed combat log. So you plan to do something like this please?

Thanks

Hello friend,

Yes there are combat logs

Noaani

StevenSharif wrote: »

Lostforever wrote: »

StevenSharif wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

That reply was "fuck you". Not to me (nor from me), not the game, but specifically to the creative director.

👍

Hi Steven,

I am hard core PvE player who loves to min/max my character and performance. I love going through my combat logs and analysis them to improve my performance. I understand there will be no in built dps meters but do you plan to log combat text to a log so that we can go through them at later time?

I come from Everquest 2 (many of your developers worked on that game) and that game does not have in built dps meters but it has detailed combat log. So you plan to do something like this please?

Thanks

Hello friend,

Yes there are combat logs

Do I have to go back and tell all my friends that a combat tracker from 12+ years ago will be able to be ported to work on Ashes?

Because combat logs are literally all that is needed to get ACT running...

halbarz

twist or turn it as much as you want, to be good at the game you do not need a tracker. It's not called "Trackers of Creation" Over the last 20 years I have played countless MMO's that didn't support meters. Were they around?? for sure, but because it was not officially the majority of the player base would not use them, some of the MMO's didn't care, others banned if they found out.

Yet in those MMO's are the ones that gave me the best memories ... we had to figure out everything on our own! We came up with our own strategy and funny enough most encounters weren't even DPS races.
Based on the mechanics and the progression you make in a fight you will quickly identify what the problem is in your group. If anyone says that cannot do this without a tracker, to bad for them.

I've lead raids in dozens of MMO's through raids, dungeons, pvp, etc. and never used a tracker to say that X sucked. We worked as a team, we trust each other and discuss with each other our builds.

The builds we used was based on mix and match, trying stuff out. Working with your friends and guild to say: Hi let's start a group, is it ok if I try my new build? if you are in a good guild, friendly, and one that works as a team 99% sure people will help you out.

Earlier in this discussion, we spoke about a middle ground, which I still stand by as someone who is against meters. Purely because I want people to enjoy the game. But clearly people want everything or nothing.

The people I am going to be playing Ashes with, some wouldn't mind a meter but understand the pain points.
This doesn't stop any of them from not playing the game! We look forward to taking on new challenges, no matter if it takes us 50 tries to get a boss down or if we have to go back to the drawing board.

Lostforever

@StevenSharif

Sorry to spam messages at you but I was really looking forward to AoC and I am highly disappointed by the news that AoC will not have detailed combat feedback etc. There are many things I still love about the game so I will play it but really sad about lack of combat feedback. I am really passionate about the game and because of that feeling bit sad now!

Detailed combat feed back is really really important for people to figure out whats going on in the game. A good player will use this info to improve their play and help other players. A bad player will use it to excluded others players so yes its double edge sword but at the end of the day you can't punish the good players for the bad ones. Thats unfair.

I played ESO, it does not have detailed combat logs and when things goes wrong, players have no idea what went wrong so they end up blaming each other since they have no way to figure out what went wrong.So lack of detailed info can lead to toxic behavior as well.

I think the best option is to have detail combat log and lets players use 3rd part tools to do whatever they want with the logs, however make it banning offense if anyone use these logs to harass other players in game. This is what FF14 does and I think its a good compromise.

Lostforever

StevenSharif wrote: »

Lostforever wrote: »

StevenSharif wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

That reply was "fuck you". Not to me (nor from me), not the game, but specifically to the creative director.

👍

Hi Steven,

I am hard core PvE player who loves to min/max my character and performance. I love going through my combat logs and analysis them to improve my performance. I understand there will be no in built dps meters but do you plan to log combat text to a log so that we can go through them at later time?

I come from Everquest 2 (many of your developers worked on that game) and that game does not have in built dps meters but it has detailed combat log. So you plan to do something like this please?

Thanks

Hello friend,

Yes there are combat logs

oh sorry missed this!!!!! Thank you so much. My guild in EQ2 is 30 people story and I will do my best to get them all to move to AoC with full vigor now! This will be our next MMO

Lostforever

halbarz wrote: »

twist or turn it as much as you want, to be good at the game you do not need a tracker. It's not called "Trackers of Creation" Over the last 20 years I have played countless MMO's that didn't support meters. Were they around?? for sure, but because it was not officially the majority of the player base would not use them, some of the MMO's didn't care, others banned if they found out.

Yet in those MMO's are the ones that gave me the best memories ... we had to figure out everything on our own! We came up with our own strategy and funny enough most encounters weren't even DPS races.
Based on the mechanics and the progression you make in a fight you will quickly identify what the problem is in your group. If anyone says that cannot do this without a tracker, to bad for them.

I've lead raids in dozens of MMO's through raids, dungeons, pvp, etc. and never used a tracker to say that X sucked. We worked as a team, we trust each other and discuss with each other our builds.

The builds we used was based on mix and match, trying stuff out. Working with your friends and guild to say: Hi let's start a group, is it ok if I try my new build? if you are in a good guild, friendly, and one that works as a team 99% sure people will help you out.

Earlier in this discussion, we spoke about a middle ground, which I still stand by as someone who is against meters. Purely because I want people to enjoy the game. But clearly people want everything or nothing.

The people I am going to be playing Ashes, some wouldn't mind a meter but understand the pain points.
This doesn't stop any of them from not playing the game! We look forward to taking on new challenges, no matter if it takes us 50 tries to get a boss down or if we have to go back to the drawing board.

Can you give an example of game where there is no detailed combat logs and how did you figure thing out on your own pls?

Noaani

halbarz wrote: »

But clearly people want everything or nothing.

I've not met a single PvE raider that would not be content with the suggestion made previously.

It covers what people consider the basic functionality, and that is all that really matters.

I will say though, combat tracker or no - if someone I don't know is invited to a group with me and introduces themselves by saying they are trying a new build, I would probably suggest they don't - and for a few reasons.

The first and most important - is that with a group they are unfamiliar with, they won't be able to compare that build to any previous build.

You should always try new builds with groups you have run with before.

CaptnChuck

Made a poll on this topic. https://strawpoll.com/7hyq1vcz7.

halbarz

Lostforever wrote: »

halbarz wrote: »

twist or turn it as much as you want, to be good at the game you do not need a tracker. It's not called "Trackers of Creation" Over the last 20 years I have played countless MMO's that didn't support meters. Were they around?? for sure, but because it was not officially the majority of the player base would not use them, some of the MMO's didn't care, others banned if they found out.

Yet in those MMO's are the ones that gave me the best memories ... we had to figure out everything on our own! We came up with our own strategy and funny enough most encounters weren't even DPS races.
Based on the mechanics and the progression you make in a fight you will quickly identify what the problem is in your group. If anyone says that cannot do this without a tracker, to bad for them.

I've lead raids in dozens of MMO's through raids, dungeons, pvp, etc. and never used a tracker to say that X sucked. We worked as a team, we trust each other and discuss with each other our builds.

The builds we used was based on mix and match, trying stuff out. Working with your friends and guild to say: Hi let's start a group, is it ok if I try my new build? if you are in a good guild, friendly, and one that works as a team 99% sure people will help you out.

Earlier in this discussion, we spoke about a middle ground, which I still stand by as someone who is against meters. Purely because I want people to enjoy the game. But clearly people want everything or nothing.

The people I am going to be playing Ashes, some wouldn't mind a meter but understand the pain points.
This doesn't stop any of them from not playing the game! We look forward to taking on new challenges, no matter if it takes us 50 tries to get a boss down or if we have to go back to the drawing board.

Can you give an example of a game where there is no detailed combat logs and how did you figure the thing out on your own pls?

Never said there are no combat logs, we just didn't have to use them or become a data Analyst.
We went through each fight by observing what was going on, how could we counter it, what went wrong, what did we notice, etc.

This has given me some of my best MMO memories

We played (below is the ones were we focused on Pve content)

- Lotro
- WoW (we played until cata)
- Swtor (raiding was not their strong point, neither the story or nightmare mode)
- Gw2
- Eso
- Wildstar (not sure if you are familiar with this MMO - wasn't around for that long)
-
Missing a few for sure

Never have we harrassed a random that joined our group, if they didn't do that well or they struggled we just spoke with them and gave some pointers

it's also how I met a lot of my MMO friends

mcstackerson

noaani wrote: »

Lostforever wrote: »

is AoC now against hard core players and guilds?

This seems to be the case, to be honest.

There is a lot about this decision that doesn't make much sense.

The logic doesn't hold from a toxicity perspective.
It doesn't hold from a player agency perspective.
It doesn't hold from an inclusivity perspective.

The only perspective it makes sense from is a "his game, his choice" perspective. But even then, you would think there would be some logic in the choice.

I think the biggest thing to keep in mind is it's easier to give something then take it away.

If they really think they need to add them later down the line, they can and people will be happy but if they cave to pressure now and decide they want to go back, there will be a lot more backlash.

Also, just because you have counter-arguments or know of instances where something they claim isn't true, doesn't discount their whole argument.

There have most definitely been instances where having easy access to data on DPS has caused toxicity.

Having the precise data you get from dps meters does reduce player agency as you have a very fine measuring stick to know exactly how different builds perform. This means fewer builds are viable as even if it's by a small margin and it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, you know what's better.

Inclusivity kind of loops back to the toxicity argument.

Just because you are right doesn't mean they are wrong.

As a side note, you can be a hardcore player without dps meters. It just takes a little more work.

Noaani

mcstackerson wrote: »

There have most definitely been instances where having easy access to data on DPS has caused toxicity.

If we were to assume that toxicity is a major driver behind the decision, all we need to do is look at the toxicity that will be caused when players have their freeholds steamrolled over after losing a siege - have their entire in game life and routine completely upended - to realize that any potential toxicity that could come from combat trackers (especially if implemented as per the suggestion made months ago) would be insignificantly minor in comparison.

This is the issue.

It's ok to have a thing that will cause toxicity in the game for one group of players, but not something that only might possibly cause a small amount of the same - and on very rare occasions when all the stars and planets align - is not ok if it is for a different segment of the player base.

Honestly, saying it is because of toxicity is worse than saying almost anything else - worse than saying nothing.

mcstackerson wrote: »

As a side note, you can be a hardcore player without dps meters. It just takes a little more work.

Indeed you can.

But if you are going to put that work in, best put it in on a game that wants you there.

If the systems to support high end PvE aren't there, what reason do we have to assume the content will be?

Songcaller

People don't keep making threads about the potential to delevel nodes (No Toxicity).

People keep making threads about DPS Meters etc (Toxicity in most of these threads).

I see the argument about toxicity to be self evident.

Isharya

It's great that there is a combat log confirmed now, but will this be exportable? Or in game only? And does it only say what you've done or show what others have done also?

Also, i assume "damage meters" as a whole will exist on the Intrepid side so they can balance the game using their sims of classes. But the combat formulas (if not expressly given) will be closely approximated or reverse engineered if the game is popular enough, and sims will be run to get the tier list of damage dealt, HPS done, Best tank configuration. Then the associated stats and any thresholds that are seen (really depends on how the stats are). These will be posted up in guides and People will enter in their current gear to sim how they are doing compared to others. We have seen this in many other popular and non-popular games that do and don't offer damage meters. Combat logs are enough for this but trial and error testing on targets would do fine too.

There are sites like warcraftlogs.com that will take a combat log and extract all the information from it, put it on a timeline, show you what happened when and where. It doesn't show positioning or anything of that but what damage was done where and when and for how much. Then give a breakdown in a chart of you and the raid against the world. So it's not like damage meters wont exist. It may be that every person will need to input their output log separately but that's just a hassle. But doesn't mean it wont be done.

So a group will be able to "optimize" the best they can with this information. The community will eventually know which augments are good or perceived to be less optimal. You can use Utility abilities to make a certain class worth bringing but a rogue finding a trap door wont help kill the dragon faster, and that is what people will want to do. In a lot of the examples you've given in interviews, you've talked about the Fighter using Daggers and getting a bleed effect or picking up fire sword synergies with Mages. One of those will do theoretical higher damage than the other. Yes you will have people who do one or the other because of how they want to play and what feels more fun, but the "hardcore" group will be forced into one of them. Now either stuff will be too easy for them to and will need to be made harder, or you make it so sub optimal can complete the content just not as fast or easily.

Where i am getting at here is really, while i would LOVE a world in which damage meters don't exist and people play the game and enjoy it and damage wont matter, that world unfortunately wont exist; and if it does, not for very long.

I think if you want to not officially support damage meters in game, that's fine. But i wouldn't go out of your way to hinder 3rd party ones that use official game data (like the combat logs). Because it'll happen anyway and if that's your policy then you'll spend a lot of time tackling a problem that really at the end of the day is out of your hands. I think a better use of your time would be to keep working on balancing the games, working on systems and new features for future content packs / expansions.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

People don't keep making threads about the potential to delevel nodes (No Toxicity).

People keep making threads about DPS Meters etc (Toxicity in most of these threads).

I see the argument about toxicity to be self evident.

If you go back through the threads on combat trackers this year, most of the threads have been somewhat toxicity free - and what toxicity has been in them has been from the side that doesn't want them.

And this isn't a great comparison. People have been in situations where they blamed combat trackers for 'bad things' that happened to them (right or wrong - mostly wrong), they havn't been in situations where their node was deleveled and their house destroyed.

Child Item