DPS Meter Megathread

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  • halbarzhalbarz Member
    Caeryl wrote: »
    halbarz wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »
    Hello friends! I love reading all of the comments and opinions here. There was also a very large thread on dps meters A little while back, where I felt Noaani articulated the position in favor of DPS meters very well.

    My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed ❤️

    That’s disappointing you won’t even respond to the massive benefits objective information brings. I do hope you realize that this puts a big limit what players will be able to achieve in the game, especially if you don’t give players actual combat feedback.

    saying that it puts limits on what players can achieve or that they would not try out different builds is ridiculous.

    By trail and error, they can try out different builds, craft their own setup and see what feels right.
    If a player can only do this because a DPS meter is their source of information then that player is the problem, not the game.

    It is a useful tool for many people, but having one in place also makes the game feel very different.
    Besides that addons and DPS meters have made it so that content is burned through faster. A lot of games have suffered because of this and some saw a drop in player base because they get bored.

    Trail and error when it comes to your build, dungeons, raids, etc. is part of the game it is content and yes also makes it so that content will be relevant for a longer time as it would not be cleared in 1.2.3

    Hardcore guilds that claim they are the best of the best but cannot figure out their build on their own or by testing stuff out .... might not be as good as you think :open_mouth: (my opinion)

    If there is no object feedback, how exactly is anyone supposed to know if that new build is any better than the old one? You can’t do “trial and error” without any feedback on what actually works. And if there is combat feedback, then other people can, will, and should use combat tracking software to make informed decision on how to approach content.

    The feedback you receive by trying out new things, (skills, gear, combos, etc) you check yourself and this is done by trial and error. An individual player should not have a DPS meter at all. as this would lead to:
    -screenshot requests
    - LFG with ranger x DPS + only
    - etc.

    class guides, content guides with a DPS meter are based on numbers so people will follow that script to the letter. Without one: it is a theory, so subject to change.

    Having a guild only DPS meter: only makes a small portion of the game about numbers.
    With this, I do think a guild one (see my other post) can work if restrictions are put in place and it would give everyone (pro or con, meter) something, meeting the middle ground
  • halbarzhalbarz Member
    edited July 30
    Noaani wrote: »
    halbarz wrote: »
    A lot of games have suffered because of this and some saw a drop in player base because they get bored.
    Ashes will see fewer people pick up the game based on this decision.

    Every serious PvE guild is now looking elsewhere.

    you can't call them serious if they only function when they have a tool :wink: J/k
  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    edited July 30
    halbarz wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    There won't be DPS meter. There won't be party finders. There won't be anything going against the social aspect.

    Combat trackers have no effect on any social aspect of any game.

    All those times people have kicked you out of a group or what ever - they would have kicked someone out of that group anyway, because it makes them feel good.

    A combat tracker was just an easier excuse.

    while we made have a different opinion on DPS meters you have made some good points in the past.

    saying that combat trackers have no effect on the social aspects of the game, I do not agree at all. :smiley:
    The fact that they use it as an excuse like you say is exactly that. Kicking will then also trigger some people that do not use it and it becomes another episode of desperate housewives.

    If a meter would be in the game, you might be ok with having some people in your group that don't hit X DPS.
    Even having an individual meter,: screenshots required or lfg with ranger needed X dps+ only.
    This takes away the accessibility for newbies that join the game later or take longer to level.
    While you have a point, the thing is, the same point as above applies.

    If guilds can't ask to see a specific DPS, and have no way to judge DPS after a propective member joins the guild, then the guild looking for new recruits is far more likely to only recruit people that have already done the content.

    So, basically, rather than only recruiting people that can do xxx DPS, guilds will only recruit people that have done xxx content.

    This is no easier for newbies - arguably much harder, in fact.
    You seem like a really reasonable person, so yes you might not be your typical DPS meter jerk but many others will be exactly that.

    In the past ( i think it was you) you mentioned a guild based meter that only the leader/officers could use in guild groups.
    - If this would mean that this guild would have to invest their points into PVE instead of size or buffs sure why not.
    - This leader/officer should only be able to see the guild members DPS in that party (even if someone external joins)
    - Only 1 guild can be joined at a time with an X amount of days cooldown in between changing guild.
    - DPS meter should be exactly as it says showing DPS, not an aggro meter.
    - Can only be used within instanced Pve!
    - The information shown can not be extracted or logged, it should solely support that guild during the encounter itself.

    I believe that this solution would benefit everyone, it gives hardcore guilds the option to go full PVE in their journey/adventure in the game. It would not affect the open-world due to being instanced only, doesn't affect PvP, would not affect random groups, (pugs), or newbies that would join the game later on.
    The other thing with this is that it forces guilds to take on the role of trainer.

    To me, this is the single best aspect of adding this - and I'm still waiting for anyone to show me a negative aspect.
  • halbarzhalbarz Member
    edited July 30
    @noaani Focusing on your last part:

    - yes I think a guild only one would work (for guild leaders/officers)
    - The trainer role could be a thing.

    Nice to see we agree somewhat hihi :open_mouth:
  • Shoelid wrote: »
    I'm a little bit torn on damage meters.

    It often becomes a matter of dick measuring rather than being the best teammate.

    This is very true. Made me laugh.

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  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    halbarz wrote: »
    The trainer role, could be something legit. of course not everyone is interested in this but I do see it happening.
    The way I see it, if players don't have access to combat trackers before joining a guild with one, guilds can't expect too much from recruits - but are able to set targets that they need to meet within a specific time period (ie, you need to hit xxx DPS after being in the guild for a month).

    However, because the player has had no real opportunity to objectivly assess their own performance, it is in the guilds best interests to help them at least a little. This is likely to mean that most guilds would actually allocate at least one member to assisting new recruits (or expand the number of recruiters, and task them with helping them get through that first month).

  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    I'm a little bit torn on damage meters.

    It often becomes a matter of dick measuring rather than being the best teammate.
    While this absolutely can be true, there is nothing wrong with a bit of dick measuring between friends.

    The only time this goes wrong is if people try to measure their dick against someone that doesn't want to compare.

    Never compare dicks unless both parties are willing - a solid rule to live your life by.
  • halbarzhalbarz Member
    edited July 30
    Noaani wrote: »
    halbarz wrote: »
    The trainer role, could be something legit. of course not everyone is interested in this but I do see it happening.
    The way I see it, if players don't have access to combat trackers before joining a guild with one, guilds can't expect too much from recruits - but are able to set targets that they need to meet within a specific time period (ie, you need to hit xxx DPS after being in the guild for a month).

    However, because the player has had no real opportunity to objectively assess their own performance, it is in the guilds best interests to help them at least a little. This is likely to mean that most guilds would actually allocate at least one member to assisting new recruits (or expand the number of recruiters, and task them with helping them get through that first month).

    that could work, and if this would mean that this guild would not be able to put points to get a meter + buffs or size I think it is a trade-off that could work.

    Again officers/leader should be the only ones that can see this info.
    It also makes it so that there is more of a collaboration within that guild aka the trainer role as you said.

    I think that having it like mentioned below, would please both sides of this discussion. Meeting in the middle.

    If this would mean that this guild would have to invest their points into PVE instead of size or buffs sure why not.
    - This leader/officer should only be able to see the guild members DPS in that party (even if someone external joins)
    - Only 1 guild can be joined at a time with an X amount of days cooldown in between changing guild.
    - DPS meter should be exactly as it says showing DPS, not an aggro meter.
    - Can only be used within instanced Pve!
    - The information shown can not be extracted or logged, it should solely support that guild during the encounter itself.


  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    halbarz wrote: »
    I think that having it like mentioned below, would please both sides of this discussion. Meeting in the middle.
    As do I.

    This is as I have been asking for on these forums for perhaps 6 months now. Intrepid have seen the suggestion, have seen me ask people to find issue with the suggestion, and then alter the suggestion to cater to the issues that were found.

    I even specifically asked Intrepid if they could see any issues in the system, so that a solution to those could also be discussed. I didn't expect a comment in regards to that, and didn't get one.

    So, Intrepid have seen this, have seen the lack of negatives, the multitude of positive, the invitation to point out issues we may have missed (they do this for a living, they should be able to see things we don't), or to point out things we are missing that make it outright untenable - and instead of any of that, we simply get a "we don't want it".

    Again, Stevens game, Stevens decision.

    That doesn't mean there can't be some reasoning given behind a decision like this when there seems to be better solutions at hand.
  • halbarzhalbarz Member
    edited July 30
    Noaani wrote: »
    halbarz wrote: »
    I think that having it like mentioned below, would please both sides of this discussion. Meeting in the middle.
    As do I.

    This is as I have been asking for on these forums for perhaps 6 months now. Intrepid have seen the suggestion, have seen me ask people to find issue with the suggestion, and then alter the suggestion to cater to the issues that were found.

    I even specifically asked Intrepid if they could see any issues in the system, so that a solution to those could also be discussed. I didn't expect a comment in regards to that, and didn't get one.

    So, Intrepid have seen this, have seen the lack of negatives, the multitude of positive, the invitation to point out issues we may have missed (they do this for a living, they should be able to see things we don't), or to point out things we are missing that make it outright untenable - and instead of any of that, we simply get a "we don't want it".

    Again, Stevens game, Stevens decision.

    That doesn't mean there can't be some reasoning given behind a decision like this when there seems to be better solutions at hand.

    even that I am against meters on a large/public scale, all I can say it was nice to have this "discussion' hihi with ya :smiley: any reasonable person and that is a bit open-minded would not have a problem with what we talked about :smiley:
    Maybe this is something @Steven Sharif can look at.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    halbarz wrote: »
    Maybe this is something Steven Sharif can look at.
    Sadly, he already has.
  • DeztoxDeztox Member
    I think people are bringing up some very good points. For me any there needs to be some kind of decent combat tracking tool just to test various stuff that has been theory crafted. Especially the points @noaani has mentioned, quote: (my comments in bold)
    They are NOT needed, for;
    players posting builds on forums and such for others to copy - (I don't really see how this wrong, as many like to try new stuff out and this can be an inspiration for some)
    players booting others out of groups and raids for performance reasons - As loot tables are locked behind difficulty, this is bound to happen with or without a combat tracker, in this instance the combat tracker just allows good players to join up with others even if they haven't played together before.
    players thinking they are the best example of their class
    players complaining their class is underpowered, or another class is overpowered - It is a decent way for the community to point out to the developers, e.g. if a single player can do 25% of the overall dmg

    They ARE needed for;
    peer-reviewing posted builds to ensure they are actually good
    players being able to prove to the idiot group/raid leader that their performance is just fine
    players being able to point out that the guy who thinks he is all that is actually not
    players being able to objectively point out which class is under or overpowered, rather than just guessing."

    All the needed stuff I absolutely agree with :smiley:

    Overall I just think it should be some kind of combat log that you can pull up after fights and not something that will be observed in your UI while your engaged in the event/combat. I think there is a massive difference between having an in-game UI that is messing up your screen and tells you what to do and when to do vs. tools that you can use for research after you played an encounter.
  • BeyondBeyond Member
    A DPS meter is a no no !
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    Deztox wrote: »
    I don't really see how this wrong, as many like to try new stuff out and this can be an inspiration for some
    In itself, posting builds isn't wrong.

    Posting builds that are not that great though, that causes issues with players that are not able - due to ability or time - to come up with their own builds.

    I was more highlighting the fact that without combat trackers, there is no way for a player to gain an objectively good build - there is no ability for other players to come in after them and either confirm that a build is good, or to offer suggestions for changes or alternate options.

  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    Beyond wrote: »
    A DPS meter is a no no !

    Nope, it's like Thanos, inevitable.
  • halbarzhalbarz Member
    edited July 30
    Look I am against a DPS meter, but sometimes we have to meet halfway. The suggestion to make it a guild perk is the fairest solution and would please everyone :) We can do the yes no dance forever and ever.

    In the end steven made the call, I am very happy about it but as said before ... would not mind the guild perk option for leaders/officers giving visibility on how their members are doing in instanced Pve only! this to keep it away from everything else.

    This way Pve guilds looking to just do that kind of content can be happy as well and it keeps random groups, pvp, etc addon/meter free.

    apologies for my poor English (non-native)
  • SepiDNSepiDN Member
    Id like to stay that im against DPS meters because it makes things a tad too easy and as addon id never want as that creates gap between players.

    Iv had this discussion in past numerous times where people tell me that DPS meter, questie, swing timer etc. didnt make things easier and still when discussing meta these are must things to have. Of course DPS bar can be something in the game already and then everyone gets the advantage which is the better option BUT

    I like that you have to test this out and people post forum posts / videos telling this build is best but yet they cant prove it. You can train to be better and stride for perfection if you just take how much time it takes to clear. Now how do you know if someone is slacking? Watch the game or recording and you see that Jimmy actually only hits every 30sec cuz he's washing laundry at the same time. And when you group with people in smaller scale you get to see them in action and get to know people.

    Dps meter takes your eyes off the game a bit. When I don't use DPS bar I might ask someone "hey why do use x isnt y faster method to kill" and after that I might test it out if he thinks its better than your rotation. You test and you are not quite sure and then you test some more in different situations. With dps bar I just look at the bar. I dont need to ask anything and neither does he/she.

    Now if the difference is very little DPS bar spots this in 1 minute but your eye necesserily wont which would create 2 different rotation styles.

    Sure its convinient but I think so are swing timers, cooldown timers for your enemies, enemy cast bars and to me they all take away from player skill and actual exerince in the game. If the game tells you when to swing, when to cast and how to cast to be most efficient then where does that leave you?

    This also makes it harder to distinguish which class is meta and we would actually see more class diversity and I think thats better.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    SepiDN wrote: »

    Dps meter takes your eyes off the game a bit.
    Not if you're using it right.

    Generally speaking, there is no need to be looking at a combat tracker during a fight. If you are, and the encounter isn't designed around a specific mechanic that requires this, you are doing something wrong.

    This is why the suggestion I have been putting to Intrepid for many months now includes the notion that the data from an encounter is not available until that encounter is over.

    WIth that, you literally have nothing to look at in combat.
    SepiDN wrote: »
    If the game tells you when to swing, when to cast and how to cast to be most efficient then where does that leave you?
    I am completely unsure as to what this has to do with a combat tracker.
  • Aisa AaxAisa Aax Member
    Kekals wrote: »
    The biggest problem with banning dps meters and parses is that it leads people to be oblivious to problems they may have. Whether that be spec, gear, rotation, or whatever, if there is nothing there to tell the player how they are doing then they will just never know.
    Yeah. Now tell me why it is bad do be sub-optimal in a GAME when you still get to reach your goal?

    Why is it bad when people can communicate and learn from EACH OTHER the proper rotations or better talents.

    Yes, you're absolutely right that people will have less indication as to their performance. This is a GOOD thing.

    Did you know that you can be banned in FFXIV for bringing up someone's dps or performance? And as a result we have a game with 100 times less toxic community than wow, where people actually vote kick based on dps meters in a random heroic with the reason "sh&t dps"(I saw this happen many times)

    It is almost impossible to get into a high-tier pug in wow if you are not a meta spec.

    Now tell me. What is more cancer for the game - people playing sub-optimally or jerks that look at other players' dps constantly and kick/mock them for it?

    No thanks. Dps meters and logs ruin games, period.
    Instead of PLAYING people start chasing after numbers and making others do the same.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    edited July 30
    Aisa Aax wrote: »
    Why is it bad when people can communicate and learn from EACH OTHER the proper rotations or better talents.
    Without objective data, there is no way to know which are better.

    You can't just go to a class guide and look it up, as without a combat tracker, those guides are just guessing.

    If you want to play the game in a way that is not striving for efficiency, that is actually fine. I honestly hope you have all the systems in the game that you need and want to make that work for you.

    My expectation is only that you would wish the same for people that do strive for efficiency.

    This seems fair to me.
  • DeztoxDeztox Member
    Aisa Aax wrote: »
    It is almost impossible to get into a high-tier pug in wow if you are not a meta spec.

    Now tell me. What is more cancer for the game - people playing sub-optimally or jerks that look at other players' dps constantly and kick/mock them for it?

    No thanks. Dps meters and logs ruin games, period.
    Instead of PLAYING people start chasing after numbers and making others do the same.

    The entires game AoC in PvE encounters is a function of how well you play throughout the Dungeon, so if you want massive legendaries you would want to strive for the best performance if you are going after gear. Some people find a lot of enjoyment through this process of progression.

    First of all, getting into pugs in WoW is NOT an issue at all. However, high tier PUG's that clear fast and smooth of course want you to be on par with the rest of the team? What is seriously wrong with that? Some people that want to push and perform don't like the idea of carrying people that haven't at least put in the minimum effort to be "good"... These kinds of things are not welfare. If you want to play a Non-Meta build then go join a non-top tier PUG? Easy as that.

    Anyways, 100% agree with @noaani it would be the best thing to have something to look at after a fight and thus not something that is part of the gameplay/UI while fighting an encounter - and leaving it out just forces players to be guessing..



  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    edited July 30
    Been talking to a few people that I've gamed with over the past couple of decades - people with similar desires in their MMO to myself - and told them about a few things that have happened here over the last few days.

    I've told them about the family summoning thing, and how ripe for outright abuse it is. I've told them about how the community has pointed out all the flaws, and provided some suggestions on ways to avoid those flaws. I have also told them that this system is going to go to alpha at least, and will probably make it to the released game in some form or another - even though no matter what form it takes it will be abused. I also pointed out that there are indeed a small number of players that will make use of it as intended.

    I also told these people about the marrage system. The general respose to that was something along the lines of "lulwhat?" A system like that being worth having development time put in to it before the game releases seems like an odd priority. But again, I pointed out that there are people that will use it.

    Then I told them about the combat tracker, about how players came together and came up with ways to negate all percived issues with it - yet Intrepid still weren't going to have one, and were going to go out of their way to make it hard to use one with the game. Even though I told these people that there will be a third party one made for the game at some point either during beta or just after launch (which there will), I also got a similar reply from most of these people.

    That reply was "fuck you". Not to me (nor from me), not the game, but specifically to the creative director.

    The general concensus there - that I have to agree with based on actions - is that Intrepid are happy to cater to casual gamers and give them systems, happy to cater to hardcore RP'ers, and give them system, but are not willing at all to cater to hardcore PvE MMO players.

    Now, to be fair, none of these people are actually upset about catering to casual gamers or full on RP'ers. Most of these people have been in MMO's about as long as me, and know that it takes all sorts to make an interesting community. The issue they all have is the complete lack of support for the portion of that diverse community that they (and I) inhabit.

    Basically, they are looking at this as if Intrepid are giving them the finger and telling them to fuck off - which is largely what they plan to do.

  • StevenSharifStevenSharif Moderator, Staff, Avatar of the Phoenix
    Noaani wrote: »
    That reply was "fuck you". Not to me (nor from me), not the game, but specifically to the creative director.
    👍
  • The thing I don't understand is that how can you on hand say "not everyone is winner and we don't give participation trophy" and then say DPS meters are toxic? There is huge contradiction there or am I missing something?

    If players can't "see"/"measure" other players performance, then effectively we are giving everyone "participation trophy". If I am going to run the WW first hard core guild, I need to know the performance of my raid force? Or we is AoC now against hard core players and guilds?

    Also AoC is PvP game and majority of player toxicity is going to come from PvP, and toxicity from DPS meters are least of your concern. So if you are worried about toxicity in games maybe we should get rid of PvP from the game?
  • Noaani wrote: »
    That reply was "fuck you". Not to me (nor from me), not the game, but specifically to the creative director.
    👍

    Hi Steven,

    I am hard core PvE player who loves to min/max my character and performance. I love going through my combat logs and analysis them to improve my performance. I understand there will be no in built dps meters but do you plan to log combat text to a log so that we can go through them at later time?

    I come from Everquest 2 (many of your developers worked on that game) and that game does not have in built dps meters but it has detailed combat log. So you plan to do something like this please?

    Thanks
  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    is AoC now against hard core players and guilds?
    This seems to be the case, to be honest.

    There is a lot about this decision that doesn't make much sense.

    The logic doesn't hold from a toxicity perspective.
    It doesn't hold from a player agency perspective.
    It doesn't hold from an inclusivity perspective.

    The only perspective it makes sense from is a "his game, his choice" perspective. But even then, you would think there would be some logic in the choice.
  • StevenSharifStevenSharif Moderator, Staff, Avatar of the Phoenix
    Noaani wrote: »
    That reply was "fuck you". Not to me (nor from me), not the game, but specifically to the creative director.
    👍

    Hi Steven,

    I am hard core PvE player who loves to min/max my character and performance. I love going through my combat logs and analysis them to improve my performance. I understand there will be no in built dps meters but do you plan to log combat text to a log so that we can go through them at later time?

    I come from Everquest 2 (many of your developers worked on that game) and that game does not have in built dps meters but it has detailed combat log. So you plan to do something like this please?

    Thanks

    Hello friend,

    Yes there are combat logs :)
  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    Noaani wrote: »
    That reply was "fuck you". Not to me (nor from me), not the game, but specifically to the creative director.
    👍

    Hi Steven,

    I am hard core PvE player who loves to min/max my character and performance. I love going through my combat logs and analysis them to improve my performance. I understand there will be no in built dps meters but do you plan to log combat text to a log so that we can go through them at later time?

    I come from Everquest 2 (many of your developers worked on that game) and that game does not have in built dps meters but it has detailed combat log. So you plan to do something like this please?

    Thanks

    Hello friend,

    Yes there are combat logs :)

    Do I have to go back and tell all my friends that a combat tracker from 12+ years ago will be able to be ported to work on Ashes?

    Because combat logs are literally all that is needed to get ACT running...
  • halbarzhalbarz Member
    edited July 30
    twist or turn it as much as you want, to be good at the game you do not need a tracker. It's not called "Trackers of Creation" Over the last 20 years I have played countless MMO's that didn't support meters. Were they around?? for sure, but because it was not officially the majority of the player base would not use them, some of the MMO's didn't care, others banned if they found out.

    Yet in those MMO's are the ones that gave me the best memories ... we had to figure out everything on our own! We came up with our own strategy and funny enough most encounters weren't even DPS races.
    Based on the mechanics and the progression you make in a fight you will quickly identify what the problem is in your group. If anyone says that cannot do this without a tracker, to bad for them.

    I've lead raids in dozens of MMO's through raids, dungeons, pvp, etc. and never used a tracker to say that X sucked. We worked as a team, we trust each other and discuss with each other our builds.

    The builds we used was based on mix and match, trying stuff out. Working with your friends and guild to say: Hi let's start a group, is it ok if I try my new build? if you are in a good guild, friendly, and one that works as a team 99% sure people will help you out.

    Earlier in this discussion, we spoke about a middle ground, which I still stand by as someone who is against meters. Purely because I want people to enjoy the game. But clearly people want everything or nothing.

    The people I am going to be playing Ashes with, some wouldn't mind a meter but understand the pain points.
    This doesn't stop any of them from not playing the game! We look forward to taking on new challenges, no matter if it takes us 50 tries to get a boss down or if we have to go back to the drawing board.
  • @StevenSharif

    Sorry to spam messages at you but I was really looking forward to AoC and I am highly disappointed by the news that AoC will not have detailed combat feedback etc. There are many things I still love about the game so I will play it but really sad about lack of combat feedback. I am really passionate about the game and because of that feeling bit sad now!

    Detailed combat feed back is really really important for people to figure out whats going on in the game. A good player will use this info to improve their play and help other players. A bad player will use it to excluded others players so yes its double edge sword but at the end of the day you can't punish the good players for the bad ones. Thats unfair.

    I played ESO, it does not have detailed combat logs and when things goes wrong, players have no idea what went wrong so they end up blaming each other since they have no way to figure out what went wrong.So lack of detailed info can lead to toxic behavior as well.

    I think the best option is to have detail combat log and lets players use 3rd part tools to do whatever they want with the logs, however make it banning offense if anyone use these logs to harass other players in game. This is what FF14 does and I think its a good compromise.
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