Meter Poll

I understand what Steven said about dps meters being toxic. But this only applies for group/party dps meters.

What about personal dps meters that you get access to when you are practicing against training dummies? This way players can learn the best way to optimize their playstyle without dealing with the toxic aspect of dps meters. You could also add stats such as ally/self healing done as well, to help healers out.

Vote Here:

https://strawpoll.com/7hyq1vcz7

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Comments

Noaani

This was a part of the suggestion I made to Intrepid in another thread, that has been rejected.

halbarz

Best to include this in the already going discussion (2 discussions below this one)

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/45220/no-damage-meter#latest

In this discussion you will find more information, the statement from Steven and some of the idea's the community has come up with.

CaptnChuck

noaani wrote: »

This was a part of the suggestion I made to Intrepid in another thread, that has been rejected.

Damn really? That sucks.

CaptnChuck

halbarz wrote: »

Best to include this in the already going discussion (2 discussions below this one)

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/45220/no-damage-meter#latest

In this discussion you will find more information, the statement from Steven and some of the idea's the community has come up with.

Yea I saw it. I feel like they should do a poll on this as well.

CaptnChuck

Made a poll on this topic, https://strawpoll.com/7hyq1vcz7

Noaani

Not everything can or should be subject to a poll.

At the end of the day (and I feel I've said this many times now), if Steven says no, it is his game to say no with.

I'd just like to know the thinking behind it.

CaptnChuck

noaani wrote: »

Not everything can or should be subject to a poll.

At the end of the day (and I feel I've said this many times now), if Steven says no, it is his game to say no with.

I'd just like to know the thinking behind it.

Check the poll. Surprisingly, its somewhat even between those who want dps meters, and those who dont.

I think its important to know this, as there is a false assumption that a clear majority prefer no dps meters. Hence the poll.

Noaani

I have no doubt that Intrepid have done some research in to what people think, and they have made their decision.

Aisa Aax

I think it is ok to have an in-game mechanic to measure performance. I like training arenas in FFXIV, where you can set up a normal dummy, or one that will cast abilities for you to dodge or interrupt. If damage/healing is measured in that scope - I am ok.

But there should be no damage meters of logs available when doing actual content.

That's my opinion.

The thing is, builds WILL get optimized through simcraft anyway. There is no avoiding it. So banning personal dummy-based meters achieves nothing. At the same time, those can be useful to train.
But allowing meters in any actual content just leads to toxicity. It doesn't make people play better - it just makes them to put numbers above the actual person/player. It leads to good people being kicked from raids, or quitting good guilds because of perceived low skill of that guild.
That ruins the games

Drag13

noaani wrote: »

I'd just like to know the thinking behind it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8UmFQGDnI4

In the recent interview with TimTatMan, Steven Sharif explained that he disliked damage meters because of toxicity created by minimum DPS requirements. He further explained that he disliked the community it encourages. Mr. Sharif wants players to help each other to improve at the game, and when a large group event goes awry he thinks "trial and error" are healthier to the MMO environment.

Songcaller

CaptnChuck wrote: »

I think its important to know this, as there is a false assumption that a clear majority prefer no dps meters. Hence the poll.

There are around 10,000 Phoenix Initiates, and thousands more non-Phoenix Initiates. You have less than a thousands votes...you can't draw any solid conclusions from the vote because I doubt the majority are even aware it exists.

Noaani

Drag13 wrote: »

In the recent interview with TimTatMan, Steven Sharif explained that he disliked damage meters because of toxicity created by minimum DPS requirements. He further explained that he disliked the community it encourages. Mr. Sharif wants players to help each other to improve at the game, and when a large group event goes awry he thinks "trial and error" are healthier to the MMO environment.

Toxicity from combat trackers being an issue in a game where I can literally destroy your house and take your belongings?

Doesn't hold to even basic scrutiny.

I also don't see a raid of 40 players being content dying constantly (and thus gaining experience debt and repair bills) with "trial and error" being the only thing they have to work out how to get through.

Valento92

Let people scrutinize toxicity; the poll speaks by itself.

halbarz

I wonder how many of the people that voted yes, have played an MMO that wasn't WoW.

Noaani

halbarz wrote: »

I wonder how many of the people that voted yes, have played an MMO that wasn't WoW.

I wonder how many of the people that voted no were the same people.

But as I said before this poll had more than 2 or 3 votes, this is not an issue where a poll is suitable.

daxiongmao87

Damage meters weren't always a thing with MMORPGs, and their inclusion never really made me think they made the games more fun. In fact it was just one way to bring the game closer to a spreadsheet. But I've never been a min-maxer

Drag13

noaani wrote: »

Drag13 wrote: »

In the recent interview with TimTatMan, Steven Sharif explained that he disliked damage meters because of toxicity created by minimum DPS requirements. He further explained that he disliked the community it encourages. Mr. Sharif wants players to help each other to improve at the game, and when a large group event goes awry he thinks "trial and error" are healthier to the MMO environment.

Toxicity from combat trackers being an issue in a game where I can literally destroy your house and take your belongings?

Doesn't hold to even basic scrutiny.

I also don't see a raid of 40 players being content dying constantly (and thus gaining experience debt and repair bills) with "trial and error" being the only thing they have to work out how to get through.

This isn't a debate between you and me so don't take this the wrong way. The philosophy of the developer is that if you think "Toxicity from combat trackers being an issue in a game where I can literally destroy your house and take your belongings?" Then surround yourself with capable players that will help you defend your belongings. If you think "I don't see a raid of 40 players being content dying constantly with "trial and error" being the only thing they have to work out how to get through.", the developers don't either. They want that group of 40 people to put their heads together to identify their weaknesses instead of just looking at a damage meter and saying "Let's drop these guys because their damage is to low, or the tanks taking to much damage, or the healer isn't cutting it.

The developers don't want to implement mechanics that improve efficiency at the cost of social interactions between players. It's their desire to make a game that will develop bonds between players. A group that properly communicates between one another can efficiently overcome the challenges presented to them.

To be clear, I don't know if not having a damage meter is the right choice. But if you think it is the right choice you need to justify it's benefits over socialization in a game that is fundamentally being designed to be as social as possible (in the designer's minds).

I hope this was helpful!

Noaani

daxiongmao87 wrote: »

Damage meters weren't always a thing with MMORPGs, and their inclusion never really made me think they made the games more fun. In fact it was just one way to bring the game closer to a spreadsheet. But I've never been a min-maxer

You are exactly the kind of person that needs to be taken in to account when implementing something like a combat tracker.

When I look at things like the in game marrage system, my first thought is along the lines of - wtf?

Thing is, I'm perfectly fine with it being in game, as long as there are no advantages to it that would make me want/need to use it. As long as it is a thing that people do because they want to, go for it.

Similarly with family summons abilities. As long as it isn't something that is easily exploitable, what ever. I think the family system is kind of silly, but hey, others like it.

In terms of combat trackers, they need to be made in a way where they don't impact you at all, but are still able to do what they should do.

That is how you consider it successful - not just that it does what it should, but that it also doesn't do what it shouldn't.

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