DPS Meter Megathread

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Songcaller

The reason I ask is because I have done 2 Million Heals output and 20 k DPS in some Boss Fights. I see myself as Carrying the Raid, the Raid has never carried me. When I have DPS'd more and healed less, we do not clear the content.

It is not enough to simply have a DPS Meter and bench the lowest DPS. Raids should be complex affairs and as such blanket approaches can't be used. I could quibble and state 'I hate fools who stand in AoE and make me Heal through the damage instead of avoiding the damage which means I must heal and not DPS.' All because they want to stand there and continue DPS.

This is why I dislike DPS Meters and DPS Races to begin with. For a Player to maximise DPS other players have to maximise support. You either want the support or want to be face rolled because all you care for is DPS.

GazerGrazer

BlackBrony wrote: »

I don't wany an

GazerGrazer wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Isharya wrote: »

You talk about guilds shaming and excluding you but do you want to be in a guild that would do that anyway? if the people you are guilded with a meter shamers do you really want to be IN that guild?

This, totally. I’ve seen these “hardcore” guilds and avoid them. If you don’t want to be judged and pushed don’t join them.

I "am" those hardcore guilds, but I don't judge, I attempt to help.

It's far more productive.

I've literally never been in a guild where I've been benched for having low DPS. I've been bottom DPS while progressing through mythic content in WoW without fear of being benched.

The only time you get benched is if you're FAR below average. If everyone on average is pulling 80-40k DPS, and you're pulling 20k DPS. Yes, You will get benched, but honestly, you deserve to get benched.

Why do you expect 19 other players to carry you through content while you under perform? You're the toxic player in this situation not the 19 other people. You're the snowflake everyone is always complaining about. Practice, get better and contribute to the group instead of hold them back.

You should feel bad that you're the reason 19 other people can't down the boss, but the problem is, in your world, they can tell you're holding them back. That mindset is the reason every MMO fails.

Hopefully, the content in AoC will be classic Wow levels of easy, so the under performing players don't matter.

Put the effort. Yeah, what if you're bad? Some people are just bad.
What about content becoming too easy for people who use meters because they have min-maxed it to the extreme? And then demanding more challenging content.
And suddenly the other people who are not obsessed about it can't experience content because now min maxing is a requirement not something optional?

Do easier content. Life doesn't award people for being bad. If you want to see the content, practice. "I want this promotion at work, but I don't have a college degree like everyone else." You should probably get a college degree. "I can't get a college degree because I'm not smart enough." You probably shouldn't do that job then.

GazerGrazer

Neurath wrote: »

The reason I ask is because I have done 2 Million Heals output and 20 k DPS in some Boss Fights. I see myself as Carrying the Raid, the Raid has never carried me. When I have DPS'd more and healed less, we do not clear the content.

It is not enough to simply have a DPS Meter and bench the lowest DPS. Raids should be complex affairs and as such blanket approaches can't be used. I could quibble and state 'I hate fools who stand in AoE and make me Heal through the damage instead of avoiding the damage which means I must heal and not DPS.' All because they want to stand there and continue DPS.

This is why I dislike DPS Meters and DPS Races to begin with. For a Player to maximise DPS other players have to maximise support. You either want the support or want to be face rolled because all you care for is DPS.

Obviously not every encounter is about DPS. No one thinks that. If you get kicked from a group because you have low DPS, and it isn't a DPS problem, I'm sorry. In the situation where the wrong players are getting kicked, they're still not going to down the boss. That same person is also going to kick you because your spec isnt following the boss guide. He will kick you because you made a suggestion on how to down the boss.

You're pointing out a player issue, not a DPS meter issue. Players are going to get kicked from groups unjustly, regardless if theres a dps meter or not.

Songcaller

Yes, you can kick players as much as you want, but, you'll gain a reputation for kicking players and players will probably choose not to join future Raids, and word will spread, so friends of the kicked person will probably also not join the Raids.

In Ashes, I hope the Raids require movement, coordination and skill. Not a mindless approach to top charts and where any movement hinders 'The Best Deeps Rotations' and I want the Bosses to disrupt 'The Best Deeps Rotations' as much as physically possible. The good news is it seems unlikely Healers will be able to cover for stupidity due to Mana Constrictions and the fact Clerics aren't Heal Bots. I imagine we will see a shift in the balance of power away from Mindless Deeps, but, towards skilful players.

Atama

Neurath wrote: »

You've just singled out the twentieth player for low DPS and claim 19 others can't complete the content because of 1 player?

I would blame the raid as a whole, because, Raids aren't always about DPS. Do you refer to a point when a Boss has 60k Health left when the Boss wipes the raid, or just generally want to bad mouth low DPSers at any point. I do not see how a player with 20k Damage Done should be penalised in this manner. It would only mean 19 other players would need to do less than 4k extra DPS in total, but of course, the elitist Min/Maxers only want to top the charts, not actually perform to the benefit of all in a Raid Group.

Thanks for the behind the scenes look at a DPS Meter Challenge.

You’re acting like this is far-fetched but it’s not. I have been in that situation where myself and another DPS were not pulling our weight and the raid failed. Specifically it was this fight:
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Deathbringer_Saurfang

Note that it does say in the article that the raid is explicitly a “DPS race”. Maybe Ashes won’t have content like this. Who knows? But people aren’t making things up, in many MMOs if you want to do end game raids all it takes is one person screwing up and you fail.

Another fight we got stuck on was Sindragosa, the second-to-last in the Icecrown Citadel. In that case it wasn’t a DPS thing or anything a meter would tell you at all, but we had one player who consistently could not take cover in one part of the fight and died. Taking the time to resurrect that player hurt us and without them we couldn’t finish. We found out later he always used the keyboard for all movements (even turning!) so he just couldn’t move fast enough. We helped him get used to using the mouse and got through it.

Yes, there are raids where everyone needs to be at their best or you won’t make it, and others can’t make up the slack for one person because they are already doing as much as they can. It’s “elitist” in the sense that they are trying to complete the hardest content in the game. It’s not “elitist” because they are unforgiving snobs; it’s the content that is unforgiving.

Songcaller

Yes, Atama, I want all that and more. I doubt we will get it in a PvX Game but I can hope. I do like to outperform others, and, often can once I get to grips with a Toon. It can be difficult to learn some fights but some fights aren't worth learning.

Sometimes it is better to train people (Which I do in PUG Raids) than to kick and replace people all the time. It hasn't been a case that a DPS Meter has caused the kicks, or, the replacements, but because people have had time constraints or people just do not listen to the warnings and continue to stand in AoE.

I am not requesting no skill be required, I am requesting that skill be required. You can have skill without a DPS Meter, its old school in fact. If a Raid Encounter requires a DPS Meter to complete I do not think it is a good Raid Design. Why would IS give us a Raid based on a DPS Meter when IS aren't giving us a DPS Meter? I do also appreciate Enrage Timers, but, again, we never used DPS Meters to tackle an Enrage Timer, we just had four modes 'Switch Tank', 'Light DPS', 'Nuke' and 'Hate Increase'.

It depends on specific Raid setups though - It never works to cloud communications so simple instructions are often the best. It is difficult for me to say how I would deal with an Ashes Raid because I haven't seen all the Classes let alone any of the Raids (Besides a Dragon and the Brood Queen).

Wiplasher

I've read a lot of this and while I don't really care either way doesn't it just mean if there is no meter everything would be harder? I like it harder...

halbarz

wiplasher4 wrote: »

I've read a lot of this and while I don't really care either way doesn't it just mean if there is no meter everything would be harder? I like it harder...

it's because some people claim that a game doesn't function without a meter.
That they can not be good at the game without one.
Some claim that it's the only way they can optimize their class.
and then you got your group that thinks that Dps meters improve the community in a game.

Valento92

Hopefully the most prevalent punishment leading to a boss wipe is badly positioning and incorrect party distribution throughout the encounter, rather than raw numbers. I speak this as a 85% DPS / 15% support player.

I suspect they're aiming for this, rendering DPS meters not that useful anyways.

halbarz

Valento92 wrote: »

Hopefully the most prevalent punishment leading to a boss wipe is badly positioning and incorrect party distribution throughout the encounter, rather than raw numbers. I speak this as a 85% DPS / 15% support player.

I suspect they're aiming for this, rendering DPS meters not that useful anyways.

So do I, I prefer fights where it is more about tactics, movement, etc. even full a DPS stop is fun once and a while. then just be about let's pull out our bows and swords and smack this dragon down in 2 min.

Naxxaz

Okay, good case for both sides.
I don't support DPS meters being implemented.

The min-max'ers will set the bar for what is "acceptable" damage compared to them, so I don't mind not having easy access to the info, just to slow down the meta.
I would say, focus on making each class bring something substantial to the group, so it's less about damage and more about diversity.

Atama

Neurath wrote: »

Yes, Atama, I want all that and more. I doubt we will get it in a PvX Game but I can hope. I do like to outperform others, and, often can once I get to grips with a Toon. It can be difficult to learn some fights but some fights aren't worth learning.

Sometimes it is better to train people (Which I do in PUG Raids) than to kick and replace people all the time. It hasn't been a case that a DPS Meter has caused the kicks, or, the replacements, but because people have had time constraints or people just do not listen to the warnings and continue to stand in AoE.

That’s what happened to us. Our guild lasted for years across multiple games. I joined it playing Lord of the Rings Online, and we later moved to World of Warcraft (and SW:TOR, and Rift, and The Secret World) so we were a close group. A number of them are still Facebook friends. We weren’t in the business of kicking people, we helped each other, and that’s what happened; we trained, changed our builds and gear, got better rotations and eventually won.

I am not requesting no skill be required, I am requesting that skill be required. You can have skill without a DPS Meter, its old school in fact. If a Raid Encounter requires a DPS Meter to complete I do not think it is a good Raid Design. Why would IS give us a Raid based on a DPS Meter when IS aren't giving us a DPS Meter? I do also appreciate Enrage Timers, but, again, we never used DPS Meters to tackle an Enrage Timer, we just had four modes 'Switch Tank', 'Light DPS', 'Nuke' and 'Hate Increase'.

As I said, we were in LotRO when I joined the guild. We also did end game raids there. Some of them were DPS races, where the enemy went berserk after awhile if you didn’t kill them fast enough. Without meters we had no tools to figure out what to do. That may have been on us but we really couldn’t begin to address the issues when we had no data to show us where the problems were. We kept trying but never succeeded. In WoW, we had the tools and used them to improve and eventually accomplished what we couldn’t in LotRO. As you said though, probably those raids were not appropriate for that game, you’ll get no argument from me.

It depends on specific Raid setups though - It never works to cloud communications so simple instructions are often the best. It is difficult for me to say how I would deal with an Ashes Raid because I haven't seen all the Classes let alone any of the Raids (Besides a Dragon and the Brood Queen).

This may be a big deal in Ashes or a non-issue. We’ll find out later. I will say what I’ve said before; some MMOs don’t need meters. I hope Ashes is one of them.

Marcet

No damage meter is much better. People saying they need it to play the game, thats BS.

DaRougaroux

GazerGrazer wrote: »

I heard there isn't going to be a damage meter allowed in this game. I think this is a mistake. Damage meters allow you to know how you're performing in comparison to other people of your class. Increasing my DPS is basically where I get all my enjoyment out of PvE encounters. Does anyone else feel this way?

No it's not a mistake. Sick to death of elitist asshat tools being used to trivialize other peoples gameplay to the point of harassment. Goodbye. Good riddance and about time.

Lostforever

DaRougaroux wrote: »

GazerGrazer wrote: »

I heard there isn't going to be a damage meter allowed in this game. I think this is a mistake. Damage meters allow you to know how you're performing in comparison to other people of your class. Increasing my DPS is basically where I get all my enjoyment out of PvE encounters. Does anyone else feel this way?

No it's not a mistake. Sick to death of elitist asshat tools being used to trivialize other peoples gameplay to the point of harassment. Goodbye. Good riddance and about time.

After reading this reply, I wounder who the real "toixc" player is....

tupactopus

I'm just going to point out, again, that without a tool to see stats you won't know that your class is objectively worse than someone else's.

That leaves the entire balancing act in the hands of the devs with ZERO player oversight.

In the other parts of the game, pvp for example, you will get rolled because your class is worse, and you still won't know why. Player skill can only overcome so much disadvantage before class disparity makes it impossible.

A game with zero oversight from the playerbase has the potential to become unfun very quickly.

Double Decker Dylan

I don't like damage meters, I don't like add-ons that basically handicap content. Let players teach by word of mouth, guides, and videos.

Metas are born and quickly degrade games because being aware of them usually makes most people feel like what they're doing isn't the 'correct' way or the most 'efficient' way. I know players can choose to ignore it, and not follow like 'sheep'.

However...

It's easily mitigated if we avoid fostering the idea that the game needs to be figured out from top to bottom as soon as possible with tools aiding in such endeavors. RPG's are meant to be immersive and fun - not doing things necessarily the 'correct' and most 'efficient' way. The correct and efficient way to meaningful game play is to leave things in the unknown sometimes.

BlackBrony

GazerGrazer wrote: »

Do easier content. Life doesn't award people for being bad. If you want to see the content, practice. "I want this promotion at work, but I don't have a college degree like everyone else." You should probably get a college degree. "I can't get a college degree because I'm not smart enough." You probably shouldn't do that job then.

tupactopus wrote: »

I'm just going to point out, again, that without a tool to see stats you won't know that your class is objectively worse than someone else's.

That leaves the entire balancing act in the hands of the devs with ZERO player oversight.

In the other parts of the game, pvp for example, you will get rolled because your class is worse, and you still won't know why. Player skill can only overcome so much disadvantage before class disparity makes it impossible.

A game with zero oversight from the playerbase has the potential to become unfun very quickly.

Not sure if you're supposed to get rolled, but they don't balance 1 vs 1, so some classes will always have a disadvantage against others.

BlackBrony

Double Decker Dylan wrote: »

I don't like damage meters, I don't like add-ons that basically handicap content. Let players teach by word of mouth, guides, and videos.

Metas are born and quickly degrade games because being aware of them usually makes most people feel like what they're doing isn't the 'correct' way or the most 'efficient' way. I know players can choose to ignore it, and not follow like 'sheep'.

However...

It's easily mitigated if we avoid fostering the idea that the game needs to be figured out from top to bottom as soon as possible with tools aiding in such endeavors. RPG's are meant to be immersive and fun - not doing things necessarily the 'correct' and most 'efficient' way. The correct and efficient way to meaningful game play is to leave things in the unknown sometimes.

I believe add ons are like revealing a magic trick. Once you know what it's behind it loses its magic a bit.

I understand the plea from PvE players, but the game won't have instanced content to Raid, so I fail to see what use they can get of a meter when they need to build PvP stuff that might not do damage, but other things.

tupactopus

BlackBrony wrote: »

GazerGrazer wrote: »

Do easier content. Life doesn't award people for being bad. If you want to see the content, practice. "I want this promotion at work, but I don't have a college degree like everyone else." You should probably get a college degree. "I can't get a college degree because I'm not smart enough." You probably shouldn't do that job then.

tupactopus wrote: »

I'm just going to point out, again, that without a tool to see stats you won't know that your class is objectively worse than someone else's.

That leaves the entire balancing act in the hands of the devs with ZERO player oversight.

In the other parts of the game, pvp for example, you will get rolled because your class is worse, and you still won't know why. Player skill can only overcome so much disadvantage before class disparity makes it impossible.

A game with zero oversight from the playerbase has the potential to become unfun very quickly.

Not sure if you're supposed to get rolled, but they don't balance 1 vs 1, so some classes will always have a disadvantage against others.

So are you willing to have an objectively worse class without hope of change because it relies all on the devs? You're not going to be limited to being worse than other players in just pvp. They will level faster, they will quest faster, they will see more of the game than you, quicker, and advance quicker. It trickles into every aspect of the game.

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