Loot System

There has been a lot of HYPE for this game as of the last month or so, hence, it has reached my ears/eye.
I started to read the wiki and watch the varies youtube vids to learn more.

As someone who has played the largest population MMO currently in play, I have some experience with the loot system and especially MASTER LOOTER aka NINJA Loot system.

I CAN NOT BELIEVE that all these experienced MMO developers think that a loot system based on MASTER LOOTER is a good idea!!

The largest population MMO switched off of MASTER LOOTer about two years ago to the great cheers of all players! It is now using what they call Personal Loot along with a bonus roll if the player chooses.

So, my experience with Master Looter aka Master NINJA.
1. My guild had to use a system called DKP (Dragon Kill Points) to keep guild members happy (honest guild)
2. Some guilds had rules where the officers where geared up first (run from those guilds)!
3. PUGs is where the NINJA comes into play, when its time to distribute the loot, after three or more hours of killing and being killed, the LOOT MASTER conveniently disconnects! All the hours are wasted, poof goes the loot.

Given the nature of the loot drops in AOC, rarity of gear drop and high need for high quality crafting material, the opportunity for GREED/NINJA and just plain Dishonesty abounds!

How in everything that is right with the world can the Chief Muck Muck think that a loot system based on Master Looter is a good idea? It is lazy thinking.

This will create a nightmare for the GMs chasing and trying to restore stolen loot not to mention endless DRAMA in guilds.
Has no one learned anything from playing the early 2000 MMO's?

If the loot system is Master Looter, I for one will not waste my time because I already know what will happen, never again will I waste my time in a game using that system.

The distribution of loot from World Boss kills is another story. It also needs more thought put into it or the very least, testing.

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petesmisc

Niraada wrote: »

@petesmisc

I would propose a loot system that treats everyone equally (for Raids/Dungeons) and allows them to get loot without human intervention or bias (all done under the hood by a game (loot) management system).

Steven and Intrepid have been extremely vocal about the importance of the social interaction components of games, and that their removal has been a contributing factor in the stagnation of the MMO genre.

Individualised loot is bad for a game in the same way that a group finder is bad for it. While on its face, it might appear to be beneficial for the sake of convenience player comfort, but they both work to undermine the social component of games, pushing players further apart.

Friction between players isn't necessarily a bad thing, particularly in a game built around player interactions. If your experience of the game is entirely divorced from everyone else's, all for the sake of comfort, then what you're looking at is an always-online single player experience with added multiplayer.

Social interaction is key to the MMO genre, and key to the stated goals for AoC. Your words here sound like you're asking to be protected from those very interactions and to be given a participation award for showing up to group content. That desire runs contrary to everything AoC is about.

Are you kidding me?!!! So being cheated out of loot because of a dishonest Loot Master is fun game and social interaction? Spending the time and pulling your weight in a Dungeon/Raid is asking for a "Participation Award"?!!
How in the hell do you come up with these things? How in heavens name asking for a "fair" loot system not socially acceptable, either your reading comprehension is shit or you are a shill for this game (that's the only choice you have, Loot Master)

Seriously, if you are a developer of this game, I have no hope for it, it will die.

I have said enough, let time be the judge.

Oh and btw, group finder is a great feature as it allows Dungeon groups to be formed quickly, so if AOC wants to drag out the time to form simple dungeon groups, fine, run around asking everyone you see if they want to do a dungeon with you (great time waster @16 bucks a month), that's sure a lot of quality social interaction.

RahkstarRPG

petesmisc wrote: »

Oh and btw, group finder is a great feature as it allows Dungeon groups to be formed quickly, so if AOC wants to drag out the time to form simple dungeon groups, fine, run around asking everyone you see if they want to do a dungeon with you (great time waster @16 bucks a month), that's sure a lot of quality social interaction.

This game is clearly not for you, please let us have to game we want and go back to playing WoW, as it is clearly what you want.

Funny enough, I've been playing MMOs for literally 20 years, and I have once, ONCE had a bad master looter experience. The other thousands of them have been perfectly fine, because I only use the system with people I trust.

petesmisc wrote: »

I have said enough, let time be the judge.

Please.

Niraada

@petesmisc I really think that what you're looking for in a game is directly at odds with what the devs are envisioning for Ashes.

Picking up FIFA expecting to play Madden is just going to disappoint you.

Marcet

@petesmisc I like to roll for loot, but you lost me saying the dungeon finder is a good idea, nah, its not fun to automatize everything.

Noaani

petesmisc wrote: »

The McDonald's of MMOs? McDonald's is a very profitable franchise with millions eating their food every day, don't make lite of that!

Indeed they do, as does WoW.

I wasn't commenting on their popularity, I was commenting on their quality.

While Mcdonalds may well be good fast food, it is not good food.

WoW may be a good game, but it is not a good MMORPG.

TheLegend27

petesmisc wrote: »

Has no one learned anything from playing the early 2000 MMO's?

If the loot system is Master Looter, I for one will not waste my time because I already know what will happen, never again will I waste my time in a game using that system.

The distribution of loot from World Boss kills is another story. It also needs more thought put into it or the very least, testing.

I think people have learnt (especially Intrepid):
Just switch off Master Looter. There are 3 loot strategies (with a potential of a fourth - check the wiki

). Pick a team that follows the one you're most happy with and have a good time

.

IMO Lootmaster works well in raids where you can trust your GL - get the content done and discuss on the loot later.

EDIT:
I do agree the WB loot needs more thought though. It would be nice to have some sort of Global Loot Pool/System. Given that noobs/other people outside the large party would like to come in a beat the WB. I would hate it if my team and I didn't tag the WB but did >50% of the DMG and got no reward because the "tagging" team did ~41% lol.

Skuld

The worst loot system of all time is the Bidding system in my opinion.
I'm bad at making money in games so I'm not one of those players who have several billions in their pockets but there are always quite many people who have that money. So that makes it kinda impossible for me to get anything from bidding because I can't bid much.

Yes I could search for a party that has different loot rules but what I'm scared of is, that someday there are too many rich players and the bidding rule kinda becomes the norm and it will be almost impossible to find a party with different rules. I've seen similar things happen in enough mmo's to be rightfully scared in that regard I think.

When it comes to Lootmaster... well... just kill the guy if he plans to trick you? If the other party members aren't in on it with him they'll even help you get rid of him.
Here a player created bounty would come in handy if you can't get back at him yourself.

Makosi

I am sure there will be basic options such as random and finders keepers and that is good enough for me.

WMC51

I would be good with world busses having one item be global Loot roll but most or all should stay with the raid. Gives the little guy a chance although a small one

HazardNumberSeven

noaani wrote: »

petesmisc wrote: »

The largest population MMO

The McDonalds of MMO's is not something other MMO's want to emulate.

It is not a good game. It has not added anything worth keeping to the genre. It is a game targeted at - and thus populated by - children.

This.

We're not here hoping for another WoW. We want the opposite of WoW.
A lot of us hate WoW. WoW ruined the MMORPG genre for real fans of MMOs.

The less like WoW this game is, the better.

Kubthebeast

Uh, idk about y'all but most mythic raiding guilds i was in HATED when master loot was taken away. because it made loot random. I just loved getting the same loot 4 weeks in a row....

My guild used EPGP(DKP Reloaded) for years, and the way our system worked was the more you participated in the runs, the higher your priority rating was (which was your EP divided by your GP) you got the drop. You earned effort points (EP) by downing bosses as well as participating in guild events. You gained Gear points when you were awarded gear which had a set value based on the value of the piece in question. When you divided the EP by your GP you were given a priority rating (PR). Which is how our loot distribution was designed. Highest PR was given first choice at drops they wanted, and when they were given the gear, it increased their GP which lowered the PR they had. Basically it was a system that allowed people who showed up all the time to get the pieces they wanted. But all of this went out the window with master looter going away. All because of the pug community.

Personally I would like it so you can only do master looter in a guild group. Because you made the choice to join that guild, and if they aren't being fair about the loot, just find another guild, or pug and pray.

unknown

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unknown

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phdmonster

They've said in the past that there will be multiple settings for loot to choose from:
1. Need/Greed
2. Master loot
3. I think round robin was mentioned
4. Some sort of bidding system - basically you bid gold and the biggest bid wins.

None of these have been tested yet, so when those systems (including party, raid and drop system) are fleshed out we will see what options are available.

petesmisc

First off, it was never my intention to defend or defame any MMO past or present, it was to share my BAD experience with the loot strategies as listed in the WIKI for AOC.

But since WOW has been brought up and used as an example

For the person who's guild used DKP and was sad when Master Loot was removed because now they could not use DKP,, did it ever occure to you that the DKP system was invented by players to compensate for the EVIL that was Master Looter? And even in a DKP system, which my guild also used, Drama still arose because people will always come up with reasons to want loot before someone else. In my guilds case, someones reasoning was, well, I have 5 pieces of that gear, this item will be my sixth and finale piece, therefore I should get it even though I don't have the DKP, and all the sheep nod their heads. And the person with the high DKP now has to wait another week or two or three for that item to drop.

As far as Mythics+ goes or Raids/Dungeons, loot CAN be given away if its something that you already have/dont want or you can sell it to a player (in cases where its a PUB). The problem many people have is with the weekly chest, where they may get the same item over and over again (I believe that will be addressed in the next expansion).

The whole point of this discussion is the loot system for AOC as described in the WIKI:
Master Looter
Round-Robin
Need before Greed
Bidding

All the above systems with exception of Bidding where part of the largest population MMO ever created.
And the system SUCKED, specifically Master Looter.

The only system that is free of bias/greed, human rationalization or any other BS that someone may come up with is PERSONAL LOOT!

Now keep in mind that in WOW, the PERSONAL LOOT can be rolled on or given away or sold to any player in that Raid or Dungeon (up to a certain time frame, 1 hr I believe)! So in a Guild, that is well geared, that's done all the time (no sale though)

Bottom line Personal Loot removes all the drama, all the head aches of trying to distribute loot equitably.

If you want a system that easily lends itself to abuse, than the above four listed systems are for you.
And no, turning off the option will not work, as greedy people with not turn it off, they will abuse the system.
Also, finding a honest guild or a group that you can trust is fine on a small MMOs with a small population but in large MMO/pop worlds, the guild master and officers will tell you to leave if you don't like it. And in a MMO, playing solo is not really an option, even for crafters (as is alluded for AOC).

So, lets keep to the topic, the above four list loot systems (as stated on the WIKI).
Master Looter -HORRIBLE
Round-Robin - Silly
Need before Greed - People will LIE
Bidding - will gold be that plentiful?

RahkstarRPG

Can you really just not accept that some people have a different opinion than you about this?

petesmisc wrote: »

Bottom line Personal Loot removes all the drama, all the head aches of trying to distribute loot equitably.

Sidenote, I've absolutely seen issues with people that are lucky with personal loot not wanting to share their wealth with other guild members for the benefit of the guild as a whole.

Aardvark

RahkstarRPG wrote: »

Can you really just not accept that some people have a different opinion than you about this?

petesmisc wrote: »

Bottom line Personal Loot removes all the drama, all the head aches of trying to distribute loot equitably.

Sidenote, I've absolutely seen issues with people that are lucky with personal loot not wanting to share their wealth with other guild members for the benefit of the guild as a whole.

Think you are missing the point of personal loot. Sharing is a choice not required. The Whole idea you don’t like someone not sharing their personal loot with you proves why there needed to be personal loot to start with

Caeryl

Personal loot systems are far superior to shared loot. Saves a ton of grief and in a free-trading game allows for trades between players who agree to it, rather than letting someone cheat the group (master looter), lie for rolls (need and greed), always favor rich players (bids), or play favorites (DKP always ends up that way)

Most drops will be materials, items will be rare so there won’t be floods of legendary gear. Legendary materials depend on a master gatherer looting the enemy, but aren’t guaranteed, so at worst you’ll have a chunk of common-rare materials and a few legendary mats flow into the game from a dungeon clear.

Any system besides personal loot are guaranteed to be abused and be generally unsatisfying to the majority.

RahkstarRPG

Aardvark wrote: »

Think you are missing the point of personal loot. Sharing is a choice not required. The Whole idea you don’t like someone not sharing their personal loot with you proves why there needed to be personal loot to start with

I didn't say with me, did I?

He said it removes all drama, which in established guild focusing on gearing for progression, it absolutely does not, even in WoW.

Just saying.

Beekeeper

Won't personal loot completely remove the need for committment? Without personalized loot, it's not just a bonus, but a REQUIREMENT to vet your team members. You need to build trust between the players, and the group and the group leader in particular, for things to go smoothly.
With personal loot, you just turn up, do your thing, loot the boss and disappear into the night, never to be seen again. In WoW, it compounds the problem that the dungeon finder creates, where nobody talks to anyone and it's really more coincidental that there are other people next to you as you farm yourself up to the next ilvl target.

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