Loot System

There has been a lot of HYPE for this game as of the last month or so, hence, it has reached my ears/eye.
I started to read the wiki and watch the varies youtube vids to learn more.

As someone who has played the largest population MMO currently in play, I have some experience with the loot system and especially MASTER LOOTER aka NINJA Loot system.

I CAN NOT BELIEVE that all these experienced MMO developers think that a loot system based on MASTER LOOTER is a good idea!!

The largest population MMO switched off of MASTER LOOTer about two years ago to the great cheers of all players! It is now using what they call Personal Loot along with a bonus roll if the player chooses.

So, my experience with Master Looter aka Master NINJA.
1. My guild had to use a system called DKP (Dragon Kill Points) to keep guild members happy (honest guild)
2. Some guilds had rules where the officers where geared up first (run from those guilds)!
3. PUGs is where the NINJA comes into play, when its time to distribute the loot, after three or more hours of killing and being killed, the LOOT MASTER conveniently disconnects! All the hours are wasted, poof goes the loot.

Given the nature of the loot drops in AOC, rarity of gear drop and high need for high quality crafting material, the opportunity for GREED/NINJA and just plain Dishonesty abounds!

How in everything that is right with the world can the Chief Muck Muck think that a loot system based on Master Looter is a good idea? It is lazy thinking.

This will create a nightmare for the GMs chasing and trying to restore stolen loot not to mention endless DRAMA in guilds.
Has no one learned anything from playing the early 2000 MMO's?

If the loot system is Master Looter, I for one will not waste my time because I already know what will happen, never again will I waste my time in a game using that system.

The distribution of loot from World Boss kills is another story. It also needs more thought put into it or the very least, testing.




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Comments

  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    edited July 30
    petesmisc wrote: »
    The largest population MMO
    The McDonalds of MMO's is not something other MMO's want to emulate.

    It is not a good game. It has not added anything worth keeping to the genre. It is a game targeted at - and thus populated by - children.
  • https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Loot_tables

    There will be more than one system to choose from. If you are joining a pug you can check if it master loot or need before greed and go from there. If for any reason you get tricked/scammed I don't think a GM will assist unless its a game bug or some sort. You would have to deal with issues on your own accord.
  • Pretty sure they said there will be multiple loot modes. If you dont like master looter, switch to something else. EZ
  • AardvarkAardvark Member
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Loot_tables

    There will be more than one system to choose from. If you are joining a pug you can check if it master loot or need before greed and go from there. If for any reason you get tricked/scammed I don't think a GM will assist unless its a game bug or some sort. You would have to deal with issues on your own accord.

    except what is your defination of need? Cause if my legendary sword is at 10% durability and I have to scrap a legenday anything to get the mat I need to repair it...then any legendary that drops I technically do need as without it I am about to loose my weapon...
  • Aardvark wrote: »
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Loot_tables

    There will be more than one system to choose from. If you are joining a pug you can check if it master loot or need before greed and go from there. If for any reason you get tricked/scammed I don't think a GM will assist unless its a game bug or some sort. You would have to deal with issues on your own accord.

    except what is your defination of need? Cause if my legendary sword is at 10% durability and I have to scrap a legenday anything to get the mat I need to repair it...then any legendary that drops I technically do need as without it I am about to loose my weapon...

    Its a trust based system where the player can choose need or greed based on the item dropped. Granted in a pug, everyone will choose need so this system will be based on a roll (usually 0-100). It would be very random and prevent one person from "stealing" all the loot.
  • Well, so far the comments are terrifyingly amazing to me!
    The McDonald's of MMOs? McDonald's is a very profitable franchise with millions eating their food every day, don't make lite of that!
    They will have other loot systems, yes NeedB4Greed is another looser and of course, round robin, all system from fifteen years ago!

    There is nothing interesting in this MMO, I like the idea of the Class system although I think Guild Wars had that over a decade ago (where are they now?)

    The point of a MMO is to play with others (PVE) and against others (PVP) and in return for the time spent I expect to have something to show for it and not be scammed by a loot system.

    Everyone talks about a community/love and peace blah blah blah, but the fact is, children are playing the game, greedy/nasty/ just plain dip shits will be playing the game, no amount of expectation or desire for honesty or fairness or "oh he's my guildy or oh, he/she didn't get anything yet" is involved when it comes to loot, everyone wants it, that's what everyone plays for. And its even more emphasized in this game because of the need for high level crafting items

    So, for me, I'm not holding my breath for this game, the loot system as it currently is defined tells me all I need to know.

  • @petesmisc
    Ehm i Just want to ask what loot system you propose with no soulbound gear?
    Dkp you can do with ur gild, no1 blocks that from happening.
  • AardvarkAardvark Member
    King Fool wrote: »
    @petesmisc
    Ehm i Just want to ask what loot system you propose with no soulbound gear?
    Dkp you can do with ur gild, no1 blocks that from happening.

    Right there is the issue 95 percent of the best stuff needs to be bop. Hell its not even boe !
  • SolonSolon Member
    You seem to be crapping on need before greed since you say everyone will need. But you also crap on master loot which would prevent that by saying guild leaders are douches.

    You need to learn to spend time investing in a group of players that arent trolls. If you spend your time building relationships with a community they are less likely to screw you over and if you spend time getting into a good guild they would also be less likely to screw you.

    Your issue doesnt seem to be loot systems it seems to be that you refuse to be a part of a community. It doesn't seem like the loot systems of AoC are being built for anti-social solo players. If that's your thing (might be mine, i'm pretty anit-social) then it seems like the artisan paths may be a better progression path for you or someone like you.

    With most gear not being BoP a player should be able to buy almost anything they want which in theory would allow dedicated solo players to get geared out without dealing with loot drops.
  • AardvarkAardvark Member
    Solon wrote: »
    You seem to be crapping on need before greed since you say everyone will need. But you also crap on master loot which would prevent that by saying guild leaders are douches.

    You need to learn to spend time investing in a group of players that arent trolls. If you spend your time building relationships with a community they are less likely to screw you over and if you spend time getting into a good guild they would also be less likely to screw you.

    Your issue doesnt seem to be loot systems it seems to be that you refuse to be a part of a community. It doesn't seem like the loot systems of AoC are being built for anti-social solo players. If that's your thing (might be mine, i'm pretty anit-social) then it seems like the artisan paths may be a better progression path for you or someone like you.

    With most gear not being BoP a player should be able to buy almost anything they want which in theory would allow dedicated solo players to get geared out without dealing with loot drops.

    Which is why it needs to be bop we don’t need someone with bought gold being able to then buy all the very best gear.
  • King FoolKing Fool Member
    edited July 30
    Aardvark wrote: »
    Right there is the issue 95 percent of the best stuff needs to be bop. Hell its not even boe !

    Well, as long there is no personal loot, I think no1 will find a better system to use. If any devteam adds anything then it's likely to be conveniences. Bop won't change a lot.
  • RahkstarRPGRahkstarRPG Member
    edited July 30

    Imagine acting like everyone that plays/played WoW loves the personal loot system.

    Imagine acting like joining a PuG raid with master loot rules was ever a good idea.

    That's a pretty great joke there, friend.
    petesmisc wrote: »
    The McDonald's of MMOs? McDonald's is a very profitable franchise with millions eating their food every day, don't make lite of that!

    Lol.
    petesmisc wrote: »
    There is nothing interesting in this MMO

    Then why are you even here?
  • You know.. Master loot won't be the only mode, but sure, go sperg out :wink:
  • King Fool wrote: »
    @petesmisc
    Ehm i Just want to ask what loot system you propose with no soulbound gear?
    Dkp you can do with ur gild, no1 blocks that from happening.

    I would propose a loot system that treats everyone equally (for Raids/Dungeons) and allows them to get loot without human intervention or bias (all done under the hood by a game (loot) management system). This way if you don't get loot, its no one persons fault, everyone has an equal chance with no bias or scam, that equals no loot DRAMA.

    So, yes, I have played WOW from its beginning and I wont bore you with all the DRAMA surrounding the Master Loot system, DKP was needed by guilds to keep members from leaving the guild and because Master Looter was the only option, there was no other way to remove the "human bias/scam".

    They also have a token that can be used by the player to "roll" for loot on that boss, which gives them another chance at something.

    All that gives the player some control of possibly getting loot but regardless, if they don't get loot, they don't feel cheated.

    Now, WOW uses a system they call "Personal Loot" for everything, Dungeons/Raids/World Boss and I have not heard one single complaint about it, yes, people still get upset if an item does not drop for them but that's different from being upset because the Guild Master decides that he wants that ring or sword, or his buddy wants it.

    You can NOT allow another human being to decide who gets loot!
    Master Looter, NeedB4Greed and Round Robin should NOT be in the game, period!

    But as has been advertised, this game is being funded by a fat cat old time MMO player, I would think that he of all people would be concerned by the loot system (Master Looter, etc). And if he wants to innovate, don't use something that is twenty years old and universally hated and leads to a lot of problems.

    Oh, I forgot to mention that apparently all loot is account wide and can be sent to ALTs, lol, wow, talk about an even greater incentive to "cheat" at loot distribution. (I could be wrong on this so don't hesitate to correct me)

  • petesmisc wrote: »
    I would propose a loot system that treats everyone equally
    No thanks.
    petesmisc wrote: »
    I have not heard one single complaint about it
    Then you just haven't been listening.

    Really tired of this rodeo tbh, people acting like there's isn't a sizable crowd of MMO players that left WoW in large part because of the welfare epics and lack of social dynamics. Not every game needs to appeal to the masses.
  • Imagine acting like everyone that plays/played WoW loves the personal loot system.

    Imagine acting like joining a PuG raid with master loot rules was ever a good idea.

    That's a pretty great joke there, friend.
    petesmisc wrote: »
    The McDonald's of MMOs? McDonald's is a very profitable franchise with millions eating their food every day, don't make lite of that!

    Lol.
    petesmisc wrote: »
    There is nothing interesting in this MMO

    Then why are you even here?

    I have never taken a pole but I sure know that there is hell of less DRAMA and bitching now that Master Looter is gone. The only people that want it back that I know of are the Streamer's

    I honestly cant imagine joining a PUG with a Master Loot rules, it was NEVER a good idea.

    Why am I here, because of all the recent hype for this game and after checking some things out aka LOOT SYSTEM, I had to speak UP!
  • petesmisc wrote: »
    Really tired of this rodeo tbh, people acting like there's isn't a sizable crowd of MMO players that left WoW in large part because of the welfare epics and lack of social dynamics. Not every game needs to appeal to the masses.

    I have played WOW on and off, I came back recently because of COVID (staying at home) but I never got "welfare epics" I don't even know what that means or how it relates to loot distribution after a boss kill (or trash for that matter) and as far as the social dynamics go, WOW has the best community of any game I ever played. People leave for different reasons, the last time I left was because I got sick and tired of the rep grind over and over again (Insanity right?!) Which is to say that WOW is not perfect, they want the $15 buck sub fee and keep you grinding.

    My post will not stop anyone from playing this game (if it comes out) but at least I like to think that in a small way I tried to warn people/devs. If your in a frat house or playing with a few high school buddies, go at it MS/GN/RR are all good for you, you can circle jerk each other all you want.
  • NiraadaNiraada Member
    @petesmisc
    I would propose a loot system that treats everyone equally (for Raids/Dungeons) and allows them to get loot without human intervention or bias (all done under the hood by a game (loot) management system).

    Steven and Intrepid have been extremely vocal about the importance of the social interaction components of games, and that their removal has been a contributing factor in the stagnation of the MMO genre.

    Individualised loot is bad for a game in the same way that a group finder is bad for it. While on its face, it might appear to be beneficial for the sake of convenience player comfort, but they both work to undermine the social component of games, pushing players further apart.

    Friction between players isn't necessarily a bad thing, particularly in a game built around player interactions. If your experience of the game is entirely divorced from everyone else's, all for the sake of comfort, then what you're looking at is an always-online single player experience with added multiplayer.

    Social interaction is key to the MMO genre, and key to the stated goals for AoC. Your words here sound like you're asking to be protected from those very interactions and to be given a participation award for showing up to group content. That desire runs contrary to everything AoC is about.
  • RahkstarRPGRahkstarRPG Member
    edited July 30
    petesmisc wrote: »
    If your in a frat house or playing with a few high school buddies, go at it MS/GN/RR are all good for you, you can circle jerk each other all you want.

    The fact that you think all guilds that successfully utilize master loot break down into these categories tells me that you've never been in a serious long-term guild of any kind, ever.
  • Valento92Valento92 Member
    edited July 30
    It seems to me that OP wants loot to be like Guild Wars 2 or other games in which there isn't a loot roll window, you either get lucky on your personal drops or don't and multiple people can get a high value loot based on their own luck. Everything individual, no despute whatsoever. I understand how you feel, OP, but this game's loot system is meant to be built on loot roll, maybe to increase rarity and I see no problem at all.
    "Magic is not a tool, little one. It is a river that unites us in its current."

    I heard a bird ♫
  • Niraada wrote: »
    @petesmisc
    I would propose a loot system that treats everyone equally (for Raids/Dungeons) and allows them to get loot without human intervention or bias (all done under the hood by a game (loot) management system).

    Steven and Intrepid have been extremely vocal about the importance of the social interaction components of games, and that their removal has been a contributing factor in the stagnation of the MMO genre.

    Individualised loot is bad for a game in the same way that a group finder is bad for it. While on its face, it might appear to be beneficial for the sake of convenience player comfort, but they both work to undermine the social component of games, pushing players further apart.

    Friction between players isn't necessarily a bad thing, particularly in a game built around player interactions. If your experience of the game is entirely divorced from everyone else's, all for the sake of comfort, then what you're looking at is an always-online single player experience with added multiplayer.

    Social interaction is key to the MMO genre, and key to the stated goals for AoC. Your words here sound like you're asking to be protected from those very interactions and to be given a participation award for showing up to group content. That desire runs contrary to everything AoC is about.

    Are you kidding me?!!! So being cheated out of loot because of a dishonest Loot Master is fun game and social interaction? Spending the time and pulling your weight in a Dungeon/Raid is asking for a "Participation Award"?!!
    How in the hell do you come up with these things? How in heavens name asking for a "fair" loot system not socially acceptable, either your reading comprehension is shit or you are a shill for this game (that's the only choice you have, Loot Master)

    Seriously, if you are a developer of this game, I have no hope for it, it will die.

    I have said enough, let time be the judge.

    Oh and btw, group finder is a great feature as it allows Dungeon groups to be formed quickly, so if AOC wants to drag out the time to form simple dungeon groups, fine, run around asking everyone you see if they want to do a dungeon with you (great time waster @16 bucks a month), that's sure a lot of quality social interaction.


  • petesmisc wrote: »
    Oh and btw, group finder is a great feature as it allows Dungeon groups to be formed quickly, so if AOC wants to drag out the time to form simple dungeon groups, fine, run around asking everyone you see if they want to do a dungeon with you (great time waster @16 bucks a month), that's sure a lot of quality social interaction.

    This game is clearly not for you, please let us have to game we want and go back to playing WoW, as it is clearly what you want.

    Funny enough, I've been playing MMOs for literally 20 years, and I have once, ONCE had a bad master looter experience. The other thousands of them have been perfectly fine, because I only use the system with people I trust.
    petesmisc wrote: »
    I have said enough, let time be the judge.

    Please.
  • NiraadaNiraada Member
    @petesmisc I really think that what you're looking for in a game is directly at odds with what the devs are envisioning for Ashes.

    Picking up FIFA expecting to play Madden is just going to disappoint you.
  • MarcetMarcet Member
    @petesmisc I like to roll for loot, but you lost me saying the dungeon finder is a good idea, nah, its not fun to automatize everything.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    petesmisc wrote: »
    The McDonald's of MMOs? McDonald's is a very profitable franchise with millions eating their food every day, don't make lite of that!
    Indeed they do, as does WoW.

    I wasn't commenting on their popularity, I was commenting on their quality.

    While Mcdonalds may well be good fast food, it is not good food.

    WoW may be a good game, but it is not a good MMORPG.

  • TheLegend27TheLegend27 Member
    edited July 31
    petesmisc wrote: »
    Has no one learned anything from playing the early 2000 MMO's?

    If the loot system is Master Looter, I for one will not waste my time because I already know what will happen, never again will I waste my time in a game using that system.

    The distribution of loot from World Boss kills is another story. It also needs more thought put into it or the very least, testing.
    I think people have learnt (especially Intrepid):
    Just switch off Master Looter. There are 3 loot strategies (with a potential of a fourth - check the wiki :D). Pick a team that follows the one you're most happy with and have a good time :).

    IMO Lootmaster works well in raids where you can trust your GL - get the content done and discuss on the loot later.

    EDIT:
    I do agree the WB loot needs more thought though. It would be nice to have some sort of Global Loot Pool/System. Given that noobs/other people outside the large party would like to come in a beat the WB. I would hate it if my team and I didn't tag the WB but did >50% of the DMG and got no reward because the "tagging" team did ~41% lol.
  • SkuldSkuld Member
    The worst loot system of all time is the Bidding system in my opinion.
    I'm bad at making money in games so I'm not one of those players who have several billions in their pockets but there are always quite many people who have that money. So that makes it kinda impossible for me to get anything from bidding because I can't bid much.

    Yes I could search for a party that has different loot rules but what I'm scared of is, that someday there are too many rich players and the bidding rule kinda becomes the norm and it will be almost impossible to find a party with different rules. I've seen similar things happen in enough mmo's to be rightfully scared in that regard I think.

    When it comes to Lootmaster... well... just kill the guy if he plans to trick you? If the other party members aren't in on it with him they'll even help you get rid of him.
    Here a player created bounty would come in handy if you can't get back at him yourself.
  • MakosiMakosi Member
    I am sure there will be basic options such as random and finders keepers and that is good enough for me.
  • WMC51WMC51 Member
    I would be good with world busses having one item be global Loot roll but most or all should stay with the raid. Gives the little guy a chance although a small one
  • Noaani wrote: »
    petesmisc wrote: »
    The largest population MMO
    The McDonalds of MMO's is not something other MMO's want to emulate.

    It is not a good game. It has not added anything worth keeping to the genre. It is a game targeted at - and thus populated by - children.

    This.

    We're not here hoping for another WoW. We want the opposite of WoW.
    A lot of us hate WoW. WoW ruined the MMORPG genre for real fans of MMOs.

    The less like WoW this game is, the better.

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