Giving PVP a Skill Gap

as someone who plays mmos since 2003, i am gonna go with a strict no. Played all kinds of games, and gotta say that the most cancer i've ever had with a skill system was in aion, where everything was tied strictly around animation canceling, jump casting, jump shoting, weaving animations, queueing animanitions... The funny thing is that most of those were considered bugs in early development, but were just left as-is since they were too complex to deal with apparently.
Since Aion i despise any work-around an intended skill mechanic or system in the game. One of the most fluid combats i've actually experienced was in GW2, and that one barely has any animation cancel, if you can even call teleporting mid-animation for reposition as an "animation work-around".

All that is stated above is my personal experience, treat it as such please.

I'm not stating the game NEEDS animation canceling. I'm simply stating it NEEDS some kind of skill gap if they want PVP players to take it seriously, and there should never be moments where queuing up for a 1v1 and getting matched against a certain class just means "You lose this one, go next."

I know what you mean, archeage has this type of system where you are screwed if you dont know who you are against before the match starts.
But we barely know anything about the current situation of the pvp, heck, we dont even know 4 of the classes skill sets and playstyles, and the current 4 that we do know are in constant motion, i believe its way too early to talk about any applicable mechanics that will keep skill in-check in pvp.
The rock-paper-scissors is way too vague right now, since we have only 1 "rock". And Steven said that their goal is not to work around a 1v1 balance, but around a group balance.

Yeah, this question is mostly based towards the development team. It's to ask a question where if they can't answer it, they think about it at the very least. The game should be balanced as a group work around. The game is being balanced as a group game, but then why have a 1v1 arena? Why play any combination of PVP characters except for the three classes that are considered the "holy trinity." This game is attempting to remove meta, and i believe that's amazing, but that genuinely means that there needs to be moments where a single skilled player is able to outplay one or even two-three unskilled players. This is especially important since tab targeting will be an implemented system.

The 1v1 is there... Well... Because its there, nothing much to say, people love arenas, and 1v1 is probably the most popular format there is.
Lineage2, which AoC took massive chunk of inspiration from was and is still a highly social, strictly group/clan aimed game, where more than half of the classes cant even 1v1 properly(speaking of classic iteration, not main or essence), yet there is an olympiad system of 1v1, go figure...

Arsan wrote: »

I'm not stating the game NEEDS animation canceling. I'm simply stating it NEEDS some kind of skill gap if they want PVP players to take it seriously, and there should never be moments where queuing up for a 1v1 and getting matched against a certain class just means "You lose this one, go next."

They don't want PvE players to take it seriously, so why should they want PvP players to take it seriously?

SepiDN

Working as a team usually shows the skill gap and I don't personally see any reason to boost the individual skill cap too high. I'd like to see RPG combat and not a competetive moba style combat where individual pin point accuracy makes all the difference. I mean I like competitive style but I think it's for different games.

Not to say I want it dumbed down to a point where you just click and hope for the best but there should be a nice middleground. WoW is a good example where skill matters but it's not too overboard as is L2.

Arsan wrote: »

I'm not stating the game NEEDS animation canceling. I'm simply stating it NEEDS some kind of skill gap if they want PVP players to take it seriously, and there should never be moments where queuing up for a 1v1 and getting matched against a certain class just means "You lose this one, go next."

I'm fairly certain this will be the case as the game will be so much balanced around group PvP. There is certain classes that are doomed to lose.

"Take it seriously" as in "actually want to put in effort."

Over1ander

Specific Ani-cancels are usually not intended by developers too my knowledge, so far the strongest influence I've seen on development so far a has been ArcheAge and there's definitely a couple ani-cancels (berserk cancel, whirlwind cancel, Gods whip combo, etc.) but the combat in AA was fairly smooth with room for skill gaps.

I don't think it should reach the levels of BDO and BnS due to the reach of AoC and the amount of players it intends to have.

Arsan wrote: »

"Take it seriously" as in "actually want to put in effort."

Yeah, they don't seem to want this from their top end PvE players, so why should they want it from their top end PvP players?

The top end of both of these groups seem to not be at all what this game is targeted at.

SepiDN

noaani wrote: »

Arsan wrote: »

"Take it seriously" as in "actually want to put in effort."

Yeah, they don't seem to want this from their top end PvE players, so why should they want it from their top end PvP players?

The top end of both of these groups seem to not be at all what this game is targeted at.

Are you really that sore about damage bar? You can show how serious you can get when you start calculating that stuff without a damage bar looking at combat logs and not keep whining about it.

Yes, there's definitely a way that groups can shine and create a skill gap, but usually 90% of it comes with communication. Even if they're god at communication, they generally shouldn't be able to outperform players with extremely high individual skill with worse off communication by all at the same time pressing 3 a whole lot.

SepiDN wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Arsan wrote: »

"Take it seriously" as in "actually want to put in effort."

Yeah, they don't seem to want this from their top end PvE players, so why should they want it from their top end PvP players?

The top end of both of these groups seem to not be at all what this game is targeted at.

Are you really that sore about damage bar? You can show how serious you can get when you start calculating that stuff without a damage bar looking at combat logs and not keep whining about it.

What is a damage bar?

@SepiDN It's clear he's either trolling or angry. Please attempt to try and keep it on topic, I'd like to avoid fighting in here.

Arsan wrote: »

It's clear he's either trolling or angry. Please attempt to try and keep it on topic, I'd like to avoid fighting in here.

Not at all, to both of the above.

I'm simply a realist.

Look at the game, tell me what there is about it that appeals - in it's current state - to a hardcore PvP player or a hardcore PvE player.

The answer, right now, is absolutely nothing.

SepiDN

Arsan wrote: »

Yes, there's definitely a way that groups can shine and create a skill gap, but usually 90% of it comes with communication. Even if they're god at communication, they generally shouldn't be able to outperform players with extremely high individual skill with worse off communication by all at the same time pressing 3 a whole lot.

I understand how you see it but I'd rather it be the opposite. I'd rather give the win to the good communication. I just think creating these niche mechanics that you need some content creator to point out to you are not a good thing. It's just different view of what you want determines the winner of the fight.

Communication is definitely key, but someone who fully understands the combat system should always come out on top of three people pressing 1, 2, 3, over and over.

In its current itiration and its future vision the game appeals massively to large pvp guilds, mostly because of the systems from Archeage and Lineage, where the mpvp was really shining, the game however does not aim(mainly) to appeal to 1v1 pvp's or hardcore pve's, and in my opinion that is good, that is great actually, its about time for a new mmo that concentrates on structured mpvp.

Even if it's done consecutively.