Loot System

There has been a lot of HYPE for this game as of the last month or so, hence, it has reached my ears/eye.
I started to read the wiki and watch the varies youtube vids to learn more.

As someone who has played the largest population MMO currently in play, I have some experience with the loot system and especially MASTER LOOTER aka NINJA Loot system.

I CAN NOT BELIEVE that all these experienced MMO developers think that a loot system based on MASTER LOOTER is a good idea!!

The largest population MMO switched off of MASTER LOOTer about two years ago to the great cheers of all players! It is now using what they call Personal Loot along with a bonus roll if the player chooses.

So, my experience with Master Looter aka Master NINJA.
1. My guild had to use a system called DKP (Dragon Kill Points) to keep guild members happy (honest guild)
2. Some guilds had rules where the officers where geared up first (run from those guilds)!
3. PUGs is where the NINJA comes into play, when its time to distribute the loot, after three or more hours of killing and being killed, the LOOT MASTER conveniently disconnects! All the hours are wasted, poof goes the loot.

Given the nature of the loot drops in AOC, rarity of gear drop and high need for high quality crafting material, the opportunity for GREED/NINJA and just plain Dishonesty abounds!

How in everything that is right with the world can the Chief Muck Muck think that a loot system based on Master Looter is a good idea? It is lazy thinking.

This will create a nightmare for the GMs chasing and trying to restore stolen loot not to mention endless DRAMA in guilds.
Has no one learned anything from playing the early 2000 MMO's?

If the loot system is Master Looter, I for one will not waste my time because I already know what will happen, never again will I waste my time in a game using that system.

The distribution of loot from World Boss kills is another story. It also needs more thought put into it or the very least, testing.

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Comments

petesmisc

PL does NOT give everyone loot! Some systems do give everyone gold regardless of the loot system (its just part of the game, even trash gives gold/silver, its all distributed equal among the raids/group members
1K gold for 10 players = 100G each.

Again, what the loot is IS NOT the issue nor how much loot.

"The whole point of personal loot is everyone involved gets some sort of reward from every boss, be it items or gold"

As I said, items or gold that goes to everyone has nothing to do with PL or ML or Nb4G or anything else. If the devs want each Boss/Trash kill to drop some gold, so be it, its divided equally among the raider/grp automatically (it does not have to be dropped at all, its what the game devs want to do).

Loot on the other Hand, gear,craft items, minor/Major/epic or Legendary are another matter.

Also, the devs can decide, hey I'm going to have trash drop minor "stuff" and random peeps can get it, again not part of any loot system, just a mechanic that devs choose to have in the dungeon to make things interesting.

Those are things that devs can implement in the game as "fun", "unexpected" etc... Its not going to be a Legendary (but I suppose they can do whatever they want).

Anyway, PL does not drop loot for everyone, you are running out of arguments my friend. (as mentioned , gold/silver/minor crap/trash items don't count)

Elitists/Streamers/GMs/their buddies is just a generic term I'm using for everyone and his/her uncle, I'm not calling you that, never have! In fact we have does same groups now, the loot system has no barring on it. You are just someone that has an opposing view from mine.

"Pete, let me try to break this down for you."
Oh, thanks for breaking it down for me, I needed that.

Hey, RahkstarRPG, what part of the country are from from? (doing an experiment)

petesmisc

"> Calls everyone that doesn’t agree with him an elitist.

This has got to be trolling at this point."

So here we are finally, anyone who disagrees with him has got to be a TROLL

RahkstarRPG, do you work for the company developing AOC by any chance?

RahkstarRPG

The way you're trying to pretend like you don't have a horribly toxic mentality towards anyone who supports non-personal loot systems is really something else.

I think I'm done here.

Wait, almost forgot. Just want to say your entire last post made next to no sense. Asking what country I'm from is pretty hilarious, and you still haven't acknowledged that, again, a "personal loot" system that doesn't change what drops based on group size is exactly the same thing as a need before greed system where everyone rolls need. Everyone has an equal chance at all loot, all the time. Exactly the same.

Okay, now I'm done.

petesmisc

RahkstarRPG:
"Asking what country I'm from is pretty hilarious"

No, I asked - take a deep breath and read it again:
Hey, RahkstarRPG, what part of the country are from from? (doing an experiment)
A simple question, west, central, east, se, nw, etc. (I'm from Illinois btw)

I also asked:
RahkstarRPG, do you work for the company developing AOC by any chance?
Again, a simple quest, yes or no

"The way you're trying to pretend like you don't have a horribly toxic mentality"
Again, how do you know I'm trying to "pretend" about anything, I stated my intentions many posts ago.Are you some kind of clairvoyant? Did you graduate from the Umbrella Academy? (ok, so the Umbrella Academy reference may be over the top, but its funny if you get it)

====================
PL system has been described by me and others several times, but you keep wanting to redefine it, ain't gana work buddy, you have no argument.

People that play under the PL system know what it is, what its limitations or flaws are and from what I read, they would rather have that over ML any day of the week.

I get it, you like and want the ML system, that's fine, make your argument, others want PL, they have made their argument, only the Chief muck muck can make the final decision.

All this thread is meant to do is point out the dissatisfaction of the loot system as listed in the WIKI, yes, I want a PL like loot system and I started this thread, stated my reasons for it and allowed others to voice theirs.

RahkstarRPG

you still haven't acknowledged that, again, a "personal loot" system that doesn't change what drops based on group size is exactly the same thing as a need before greed system where everyone rolls need. Everyone has an equal chance at all loot, all the time. Exactly the same.

CaptnChuck

@petesmisc

Watch this @ 52:47.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jafkqiBvNU

No, you're alone. If guilds want there to be a master looter, then they should be given that option. Sure, there will always be guilds that act selfishly and gear up officers and leaders first. You should leave those guilds and join others that distribute loot more fairly. Also, you cannot expect to be given top tier gear when you've just joined the guild. They will obviously give that gear out to others in the guild i.e. those who have been there longer than you. Once you build a certain level of loyalty and trust, then you start getting gear.

Ultimately, only the fair ones will rise to the top, while the selfish guilds scramble at the bottom.

In PUGs however, master loot can be seen as a bad thing, which is exactly why there will be MULTIPLE loot rules in AoC.

You've joined this forum for barely 3 days, and you're already insulting the game director by calling him a Chief Muck Muck and lazy. I think you need to calm down. The game is a solid 2 years away from release. If something is disliked by the majority of the player-base, they will fix it.

Trust Intrepid to know what they're doing.

CaptnChuck

hazardnumberseven wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

petesmisc wrote: »

The largest population MMO

The McDonalds of MMO's is not something other MMO's want to emulate.

It is not a good game. It has not added anything worth keeping to the genre. It is a game targeted at - and thus populated by - children.

This.

We're not here hoping for another WoW. We want the opposite of WoW.
A lot of us hate WoW. WoW ruined the MMORPG genre for real fans of MMOs.

The less like WoW this game is, the better.

Except even WoW players disliked the removal of Master Loot. OP has never joined a good guild I guess.

Samson1

CaptnChuck wrote: »

@petesmisc

Watch this @ 52:47.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jafkqiBvNU

No, you're alone. If guilds want there to be a master looter, then they should be given that option. Sure, there will always be guilds that act selfishly and gear up officers and leaders first. You should leave those guilds and join others that distribute loot more fairly. Ultimately, only the fair ones will rise to the top, while the selfish guilds scramble at the bottom.

In PUGs however, master loot can be seen as a bad thing, which is exactly why there will be MULTIPLE loot rules in AoC.

You've joined this forum for barely 3 days, and you're already insulting the game director by calling him a Chief Muck Muck and lazy. I think you need to calm down. The game is a solid 2 years away from release. If something is disliked by the majority of the player-base, they will fix it.

Trust Intrepid to know what they're doing.

Thank you @CaptnChuck This is a great example as to why Master Loot should be available as an option within the game.

petesmisc

RahkstarRPG wrote: »

you still haven't acknowledged that, again, a "personal loot" system that doesn't change what drops based on group size is exactly the same thing as a need before greed system where everyone rolls need. Everyone has an equal chance at all loot, all the time. Exactly the same.

The Loot table from a Boss in a Raid Dungeon is set at development time, during a raid, some of the loot is available to the raid. Its loot table may have something for each class, plate, leather, cloth ring/ticket but what drops off of that loot table during "your encounter" is limited. Some week only the cloth users are happy, next week a Plate piece may drop or perhaps a cloth and a plate Each Boss has their won loot table and each encounter drops some portion off of that loot table (for the most part, they will not be the same).

But regardless, none of that matters! Its how the loot is provided to the player, that's what this thread is about.
Yes everyone has an equally chance to get loot but if the loot is cloth and you wear plate, it will not drop for you (WOW has a gear restriction, Mages, Priests, Warlock wear Cloth, Warriors wear Plate, Warriors will never get a Cloth drop in a Raid Dungeon). Rings and some trinkets can be used cross Class's

You still own me two answers!
=============================================
"We're not here hoping for another WoW. We want the opposite of WoW.
A lot of us hate WoW. WoW ruined the MMORPG genre for real fans of MMOs.

The less like WoW this game is, the better."

AOC is NOT going to be like WOW, its going to be its own thing, a crafters paradise (at least thats my impression)

There seems to be a lot of Hate of WOW, all great things are built on top on previous great things, to deny that WOW has made some contributions is a blind hate, no need for it. (I don't want to defend or defame any MMO, so stop even mentioning WOW, its a poor argument for ML)

=======================================
"No, you're alone. If guilds want there to be a master looter, then they should be given that option. Sure, there will always be guilds that act selfishly and gear up officers and leaders first."

I don't think so, the thread proves it, just read with an open mind.

=================================================
"You've joined this forum for barely 3 days, and you're already insulting the game director by calling him a Chief Muck Muck and lazy."

The "Chief muck muck was/is tongue in cheek, are you him? I couldn't remember the Fat Cats name who is funding AOC (fat cat=tongue in cheek) so I used Chief muck muck

Chief=boss
muck muck =Borrowed from Chinook Jargon muckamuck (“food”). In the sense "person of authority", it is short for " high muckamuck "

So, calm down, its a complement!

As far as "Lazy thinking" , yes, I think its LAZY THINKING to have those generic loot systems, after 20 years of MMO experience/data

=================================
"The game is a solid 2 years away from release. If something is disliked by the majority of the player-base, they will fix it."

The MOST reasonable response yet (and one I have stated in my previous comment, way back up, search for it)

So, you don't want potential players views to be known now? You want to wait two years? Ok, its you game.

=================================
" Sure, there will always be guilds that act selfishly and gear up officers and leaders first. You should leave those guilds and join others that distribute loot more fairly. Ultimately, only the fair ones will rise to the top, while the selfish guilds scramble at the bottom.

In PUGs however, master loot can be seen as a bad thing, which is exactly why there will be MULTIPLE loot rules in AoC."

Is that you argument against PL? And the multiple loot system is the problem!

=========================================
As to the video, I'm not sure what "time line" you wanted me to see, can you specify (I have seen the video btw, days ago) I don't see what it has to do with PL, provide a specific time stamp that I can go too, that we all can go to.

====================================================================================
Well, I must say, this was a great effort by someone, great research, now I know the Company is reading the thread! Don't be afraid! Light/Sunshine is a great disinfectant.

Oh, btw, I know Asnomd would love to get Master Loot back, or at the very least in Mythic+ Dungeons (seen him say so in one of his streams).
But that's OK, he is a Streamer and he's looking out for his best interest, nothing wrong with that.

So, here we have it, the only thing I wish for now would be to know who in this thread is working for the Company, just for honesties sake. Otherwise, I'm happy that the Company is reading the thread!

Hey, have a look at the Loot Distribution thread also.

RahkstarRPG

if the loot is cloth and you wear plate, it will not drop for you

Yeah, that's how it works in WoW.

But that's not how it works here, because all classes can use all gear types.

Fucks sake man, you don't even know something so basic about the game and you're already here crying about loot rules?

I'm not dignifying your dumb questions with a response because A: You assume I'm from the US, which is funny and B: If I were an employee, I wouldn't be here arguing with you.

petesmisc

RahkstarRPG
"Yeah, that's how it works in WoW.

But that's not how it works here, because all classes can use all gear types.

Fucks sake man, you don't even know something so basic about the game and you're already here crying about loot rules?"

I know all classes can wear any gear in AOC, (I stated so in a previous comment) what the heck is you point,
why in the world are you so obtuse? I have watched Q&As and read the WIKI

The loot does not matter, its how its distributed that matters, man oh man. (bangs head on desk)

Yes, I assumed you are from US, so if your not, why not say where your from, we could be pen pals, I told you what state I'm from. It would be interesting to know what other countries are looking at AOC, be sociable!

Soooo, can I assume that you are not a Company employee, just a fan of ML? Would that be accurate?

BTW, if you are from another country, you English is outstanding! Except perhaps reading comprehension, no, no, its not a ding, just saying.

RahkstarRPG

I know all classes can wear any gear in AOC

If you're aware of this, what was the point of you bringing up certain classes getting access to certain loot in your last post?

Something something that's besides the point.

Going to try to break it down for you again. Please read this, and respond directly to the next paragraph in this post.

Since you are asking for a personal loot system where the boss drops the same amount of loot regardless of raid size and all classes can use all gear, what you are asking for is functionally identical to everyone rolling Need in Need Before Greed. Since all classes can use all gear, that means everyone would have access to all drops regardless of loot system, and since you're saying the amount of loot can stay consistent, it is effectively just randomly distributing all dropped gear among all players, which is exactly what would happen if everyone voted Need in Need Before Greed.

Do you understand now? Please?

Caeryl

I do prefer complete RNG in loot distribution.

It all comes down to one major point: The impact of bad faith in a Master Loot system is much more severe than the impact of bad faith in a Personal Loot system.

We can completely eliminate the potential harm from bad faith Master Loot systems, and Personal Loot can be made to work like Master Loot for group that agrees to give all loot to one player, with minimal inherent risks of bad faith affecting the distribution.

FuryBladeborne

Caeryl wrote: »

I do prefer complete RNG in loot distribution.

Need before greed is RNG between those who choose need. If no one chooses, need then it is RNG between everyone.

RahkstarRPG

Caeryl wrote: »

I do prefer complete RNG in loot distribution.

It all comes down to one major point: The impact of bad faith in a Master Loot system is much more severe than the impact of bad faith in a Personal Loot system.

We can completely eliminate the potential harm from bad faith Master Loot systems, and Personal Loot can be made to work like Master Loot for group that agrees to give all loot to one player, with minimal inherent risks of bad faith affecting the distribution.

Then just use need before greed and have everyone roll need.

It's functionally exactly the same.

Yuyukoyay

Well no NB4G is not the same as personal loot at all. PL is automatic. You don't have to do anything and it just gives you something. Probably something you won't want which is where the trading and social aspect comes from. Quickly distributing the loot is a nice factor as well.

There are never bad players in a raid. Those usually get kicked when they are unable to do the content. Even so it should not be anyone's right to judge who is worthy of getting anything because you still all completed the content together. The entire spirit of older MMOs is that you made friends with players of all skill levels and you eventually did all the content together. Eventually everyone will be closer to the same skill level with minimal removals. That was all lost in WoW.

Joining a guild in WoW today is like applying for a job. Which is literally the most anti fun bull crap you can have in a video game. This is primarily because of the master looter system. No one can trust each other and most of WoW's competitors don't really adapt the ML system. They generally use a more advanced version of need or greed. The communities in FF14 specifically are way better than WoWs.

In FF14 people are almost never even talking about personal gain. The game does that for you. They chat about either things that matter in the guild, fun stuff, or where is x. You can actually have fun in that game whereas when I try to chat in WoW. People literally tell me to "shut the fuck up".

That alone tells you what kind of players each game has gathered.

Asmonbald is probably the worst person you can have to defend your points. You see as a guild leader he is going to want the most control he can possibly have. Whereas a lot of people just want the guild leader to direct what to do and the game itself distributes the possible rewards. That way the least amount of time is wasted as possible. Using ML to steal from people wastes literal months out of people's lives.

Like to point out that saying any of what I have said didn't happen to you is not a real counter argument to any of the logic I have said. It's like I'm telling you drive by's can happen and you are arguing that they can't.

The Loot system really changes a community. It's always been for the worst when ML is involved. Especially when personal loot has the exact same system to any guild as ML. With none of it's drawbacks.

Though trying to sway asmonbald fans with logic is a kin to yelling at a brick wall.

I'm from New England.

RahkstarRPG

Well no NB4G is not the same as personal loot at all. PL is automatic. You don't have to do anything and it just gives you something.

Does that really make that much of a difference? Does knowing that everyone hit that need button really weigh that heavily on your conscience? It functions exactly the same. If your suggested personal loot system isn't giving everyone some sort of reward (as WoW's does) it is functionally exactly the same as All Need in NBG, except it auto rolls for you.

Like to point out that saying any of what I have said didn't happen to you is not a real counter argument to any of the logic I have said. It's like I'm telling you drive by's can happen and you are arguing that they can't.

And I'd like to point out that comparing a video game loot system to drive by shootings is absolutely absurd.

And you're still pretending like there aren't literal thousands of guilds happily using the master looter system either in conjunction with DKP or a loot council without any serious issues at all.

Grievousness

First of all RahkstarRPG, nice posts.
Made my day.

Now back to the topic.

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

Well no NB4G is not the same as personal loot at all. PL is automatic. You don't have to do anything and it just gives you something. Probably something you won't want which is where the trading and social aspect comes from. Quickly distributing the loot is a nice factor as well.

Yea personal loot is not the same.
It's the lazy boys variant for those who cannot roll because they haven't been returned from afk.
Have you never noticed all those afk people in raidfinder just auto attacking the boss?
That's why people truly need personal loot.
Can't roll if afk.

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

There are never bad players in a raid. Those usually get kicked when they are unable to do the content. Even so it should not be anyone's right to judge who is worthy of getting anything because you still all completed the content together. The entire spirit of older MMOs is that you made friends with players of all skill levels and you eventually did all the content together. Eventually everyone will be closer to the same skill level with minimal removals. That was all lost in WoW.

Yea but back in older MMOs like 99% of the playerbase were bad players so being a bad player did not stand out.
Nowadays MMOs are extremely more difficult and players are extremely more skilled.
I mean just look at the first classic server ragnaros kill:
https://www.wowhead.com/news=294838/world-first-classic-ragnaros-kill-by-apes
Compare that to the guys back in actual vanilla.
But this is simply not the past and it will never be again.
So acting like there aren't bad players isn't exactly helpful to anyone.
Simply summoning the ghosts of the past doesn't make it the past.

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

Joining a guild in WoW today is like applying for a job. Which is literally the most anti fun bull crap you can have in a video game. This is primarily because of the master looter system. No one can trust each other and most of WoW's competitors don't really adapt the ML system. They generally use a more advanced version of need or greed. The communities in FF14 specifically are way better than WoWs.

Joining a wow guild can be like applying for a job because getting into a really good guild demands high performance just like working in a demanding working enviroment.
But you don't need to if you don't like it so I don't really get why you are upset about it.
Neither do I see any connection to the master looter system actually it is the opposite.
In fact many guilds use it to protect their guild, that also means their members, from loosing equipment to people who are simply passing by.
Without master looter that is simply not possible.
It's extremely frustrating if you equip a new player just so he can leave soon after being full geared.

The main reason I personally see why this is not so frequently happening in other games is that the wow devs became really good in balancing the bosses extremely tight around the equipment available to the playerbase.
What that in fact means is that your guild progress can be determined by having like 1% missing damage.
Making loosing equipment to people just passing by much more painful.
Once again this is completely about guild progress not personal gain.

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

Asmonbald is probably the worst person you can have to defend your points.

Actually true since he said in a stream he has abused master looter to steal from people.
But I assume you are too lazy to actually research so you rather make up some weird stuff.
There we go:

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

You see as a guild leader he is going to want the most control he can possibly have. Whereas a lot of people just want the guild leader to direct what to do and the game itself distributes the possible rewards. That way the least amount of time is wasted as possible. Using ML to steal from people wastes literal months out of people's lives.

So he is basically a vampire? But they need the life force to live themselves can't blame them for that.

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

Like to point out that saying any of what I have said didn't happen to you is not a real counter argument to any of the logic I have said. It's like I'm telling you drive by's can happen and you are arguing that they can't.

The thing is your whole "master looter is evil" stance is kind of extreme.
Also you mostly blow it up with rhetorics instead of hard data or proper arguments .
But let's just take a short look at some of your wild claims to get an idea:

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

People are just going to use the system that takes the most advantage over their own team mates.

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

Countless Guilds in WoW disbanded over that system. They probably lost half of their entire player base to it. It's just not a good system.

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

There are systems that are a positive benefit to be allocated socially among a group. Loot is not one of them. It actually is the opposite. Having it be socially allocated encourages mass toxicity.

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

The fact is for every case of Master Looting being successful. There are 100 more cases of it not being successful. It does not encourage social interaction as much as it destroys relationships.

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

In most cases where Ninja Looting happened about half of the people involved quit the game.

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

Using ML to steal from people wastes literal months out of people's lives.

I mean just read them, most of them aren't even remotely proveable.
And you formulate them as facts!
(I know the last one is double quote in this post but just let the meaning sink in!)

Khronus

Master Looter in a bad guild is bad. Master looter in a good guild should prove zero issues or drama. What you are wanting is a system that caters to a world where society/community doesn't matter. Communicate, build relationships, join a good guild and be cautious of who you play with. Server reputation will finally be a thing once again.

petesmisc

Yuyukoyay, Mate, its a lost cause, trying to go against the establishment is going to gets you (us) a rock on the head.

No point in debating it anymore.

Heck, its not even a debate, you would think if Nb4G is the same as PL, that at least we could agree to replace Nb4G with PL, but no, that cant happen either. Why you ask, because?:
"Yea personal loot is not the same.
It's the lazy boys variant for those who cannot roll because they haven't been returned from afk.
Have you never noticed all those afk people in raidfinder just auto attacking the boss?
That's why people truly need personal loot.
Can't roll if afk."

The BS just goes on and on. I'm out, closing my tab.

Child Item