What could be the severity of PvPing in dungeons and how can you essentially stop PvP guilds?

Hi, I'm a avid MMO player who looks at PVP with a disdain from a new players perspective as well as someone who works a 9-5 and can't no life MMO's like I could 10 years ago.
I'm excited about Ashes but I see the incentive to PVP in most cases but dungeons to me seem like the wrong place to have a "battleground", so my question mainly revolves around PVP guilds running dungeons and raids to get either their own characters geared or gear their new guildies.

Gear in the dungeons could have a chase piece but its in a lower leveled dungeon so you could potentially see higher leveled players in there
The example I have is a lower level but on-par well geared group attempts the dungeon ,they get to the boss and start the encounter damaging it to 75% total Hp left but another either more equipped or higher leveled groups comes in wipes the previous group and kills the boss. (lets say the level discrepancy is 5 levels)
Now the corruption system doesn't specify the amount of corruption or how the score works, it only generalizes the system so far.
You can say its not worth but a guild with high leveled players in the end game could put on moderate gear and pk clear a dungeon to allow their lowered leveled players a chance to get gear.
It seems like the system should stop most people BUT this type of behavior will be common somewhere in the game if a PVP guild wants to enact sieges every week with all their guild members they will be given an incentive to clear competition out of dungeons for their lowered level guild member to get their specified chase pieces.

Again this is just a thought but if I ,a mainly casual PVE player can think of it, then most PVP players will at least entertain the thought.

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Lincoln Hawk

You're right guilds have that choice and they should, its up to you to counter those choices with your own actions. Risk vs Reward.

This isnt a game where solely focusing on one aspect of the game is going to be easy, take for instance you labelling a guild PvP, well every guild needs to pvp, pve etc, its a pvx game and you need to participate in all facets of the game to get true success.

Aildust

I would say that is a little misleading because a PVP player/guild will begrudgingly participate in PVE content to get multiple pieces of gear or enchants for PVPing while a PVE player won't actively seek PVP because gear PVP gear isn't necessary for raiding or world boss hunting. The balance could be changed where some PVP gear pieces are needed for PVE content but it still comes down to how the corruption system is implemented and how quick a player becomes corrupted from PKing.
Which is why I'm skeptical of incentivizing PVP heavily without really giving the community any knowledge of the system so far.

Lincoln Hawk

There is no pvp gear, you have to pve for materials and drops, the only thing that drops via pvp is enchants. Which you can get from Arena etc.

Aildust

So no other incentive for a Pve player to engage into pvp unless its a siege for a chance at materials for gearing. Meanwhile its worthwhile for a pvp player to gank and take bosses. I understand being prepared but if you want incentivize pvp for pve players there has to be something else other than enchants in arena and siege nodes for materials.

Lincoln Hawk

Aildust wrote: »

So no other incentive for a Pve player to engage into pvp unless its a siege for a chance at materials for gearing. Meanwhile its worthwhile for a pvp player to gank and take bosses. I understand being prepared but if you want incentivize pvp for pve players there has to be something else other than enchants in arena and siege nodes for materials.

Well there is your incentive right there, to take bosses and dungeons.

Aildust

That’s taking away the choice whether or not to PvP, it’s now a requirement which means less people will dungeon delve if they are forced to pvp throughout the entire dungeon just to die or exhaust all their utility making their way to the boss room.
Yes Risk vs Reward but there isn’t a reward that you could justify that much grief for low level dungeons.
An example for when it’s worth it, is like in classic WoW when either alliance or horde players are crafting Legendaries where the other faction shows up to essentially halt forging process.
I just don’t see the benefit but I see the potential.

Lincoln Hawk

You are objectively looking at it wrong though, from a view of current mmo's where playerbases are split into categories.
When you PvE you have to be prepared for PvP at all times, all systems are interconnected, you really dont have a choice because of the way the game is designed, as a pvx game. You need to participate in all aspects of the game, there will be no PvE or PvP players, just players. You want that loot be prepared to fight for it.

Aildust

Ok but with BDO being a MMO that has this exact type of dungeon running and grinding experience where random player can just run up and kill you, I’m still trying to understand what are the repercussion for this type of behavior. So going back to my original question and point what’s the scale and score of corruption and what are their plans to stop in guild bounty farming when a PvP oriented guild decides to exploit the bounty system.
(Just a side note when I’m drawing clear cut distinctions between a PvP guild and a “normal” guild it’s about the actions the guild takes) [a mercenary guild is essentially a PVP guild] so drawing these types of black and white conclusions are founded by Stevens Sharif own rhetoric

Grails

I share this concern about several of the systems surrounding open world dungeons. I will likely want to pvp and pve. I will probably want to play 10 hours a week. I want to be in a guild, but probably only a smaller one, like 10 people tops.

If one of the big guilds of the server decide dungeon X that has dragon mob Y in it is worth farming all the time for certain potion mats or something, even when they vastly out level the mobs, and I go in with my party of guildmates to try to get some levels/rewards. What stops the high level people from just taking everything? I have no pack of people to call on to help. They don't have to kill me to ruin the experience, they can just follow us and kill everything we tag. If they can kill a mob easily, while we meet the level requirements and take 30 seconds to kill a mob, the tagging doesn't help us, they'll do a large % of the damage quickly and take the drop.

Then, what's to stop them from taking every boss kill? Just easily get to and sit in the boss area. We worked our butts off to get to the boss, we pull, they can then kick our assess while the boss also beats us up, then they take the kill while we rez or whatever, or just out dps us and take the boss drop too. There's no risk vs reward for them or us, we have no recourse to stop them they out gear and out level us, they have nothing to lose until corruption really kicks in. They can do it several times, or switch out guildies while the others farm mobs to reduce corruption, and repeat.

Also, what's the respawn times for bosses going to be like? Will the boss even be there when we finally make it? If it's a short timer and the dungeon is huge, like we've seen, people will just sit in the boss room and kill it over and over, but if it's long respawn, we'll get there and it will be dead already, and either we wait and many groups will probably pile up waiting and fight forever to get it, or we just don't get to kill it ever.

I'm sure they've discussed a lot of this but I just joined the forum to ask about this stuff, and this was the first thread that came up with an open world dungeon search

LieutenantToast

Hi there! As this appears to be more of a discussion on PvP than a question for our support & FAQ sections, I'm going to go ahead and move it on over to our General Discussion section!

Warth

Here is the thing, you can't look at the corruption system and search for problems without factoring in the other in-game system that are exactly designed to prevent that.

On the same note, just taking a system (corruption), that worked greatly in Lineage 2, without considering the systems around it will not work. I trust Intrepid enough to believe they understand that.

Grails wrote: »

If one of the big guilds of the server decide dungeon X that has dragon mob Y in it is worth farming all the time for certain potion mats or something, even when they vastly out level the mobs, and I go in with my party of guildmates to try to get some levels/rewards. What stops the high level people from just taking everything? I have no pack of people to call on to help. They don't have to kill me to ruin the experience, they can just follow us and kill everything we tag. If they can kill a mob easily, while we meet the level requirements and take 30 seconds to kill a mob, the tagging doesn't help us, they'll do a large % of the damage quickly and take the drop.

Lineage 2, who inspired the corruption system dealt with this pretty efficiently. They drastically decreased the Loot and Experience players get from Content that is below/above them. You'd only get 100% of the loot if the content was within +4/-4 (?) Levels of your Character. You'd also get diminishing returns on exp depending on the Level difference. (Bosses were handled differently)

This pretty much invalidated the problem of high levels farming low level areas or boosting some of their guild mates.

Grails wrote: »

Then, what's to stop them from taking every boss kill? Just easily get to and sit in the boss area. We worked our butts off to get to the boss, we pull, they can then kick our assess while the boss also beats us up, then they take the kill while we rez or whatever, or just out dps us and take the boss drop too. There's no risk vs reward for them or us, we have no recourse to stop them they out gear and out level us, they have nothing to lose until corruption really kicks in. They can do it several times, or switch out guildies while the others farm mobs to reduce corruption, and repeat.

Also, what's the respawn times for bosses going to be like? Will the boss even be there when we finally make it? If it's a short timer and the dungeon is huge, like we've seen, people will just sit in the boss room and kill it over and over, but if it's long respawn, we'll get there and it will be dead already, and either we wait and many groups will probably pile up waiting and fight forever to get it, or we just don't get to kill it ever.

Judging based on the L2 inspiration once more, then the Respawn timer for raid size bosses should fall between 1 and 12 hours. Which extend up 7+ days for grand bosses. It's probably not gonna be much different here. Group sized "mini"-bosses should fall into the 30min - 4 hour range. This pretty much invalidates the camping of these raid sized bosses.

Why do you think you have the right to get the loot drop over them? Killing you would indeed by a risk v. reward system for them, as corruption is nothing to take lightly. Outperforming you within the boss fight itself? Not so much, but then again, I don't see any reason why you'd feel entitled to get the loot from this boss. It's not yours, get that out of your head, its a public boss, ready to be taken by anybody who tries. Either size up to take it for yourself or buy the materials dropping from the boss off the market.

It clearly is a highly contested spawn you are talking about, otherwise the large guilds wouldn't bother farming it. I can't quite put my finger on something... The though of feeling entitled to the highly contested bosses and spawns, while not putting in the effort to get them, feels very weird to me. I'm not quite sure where this sense of entitlement comes from, I'd guess WoW as that game handed everything on a silver platter to its player base. What it comes down to: People that will put more effort into the game will be rewarded for it.

A stronger guild (pvp or not) out-performing you on a boss to secure the loot isn't connected to the PvP system either. That's a strawman at best.

Jexz

Aildust wrote: »

That’s taking away the choice whether or not to PvP, it’s now a requirement which means less people will dungeon delve if they are forced to pvp throughout the entire dungeon just to die or exhaust all their utility making their way to the boss room.
Yes Risk vs Reward but there isn’t a reward that you could justify that much grief for low level dungeons.
An example for when it’s worth it, is like in classic WoW when either alliance or horde players are crafting Legendaries where the other faction shows up to essentially halt forging process.
I just don’t see the benefit but I see the potential.

Goes both ways If I didn't have to raid so I can be competitive pvp I wouldn't. It is indeed a PvX game by design. You don't want to PvP but are forced into it. I don't want to PvE but will be forced into it. Hopefully its a 50/50 split but I think you will be the lucky one and that the game will favor PvE probably 70/30

Drayen

I can tell you that I am one of many players who will not be playing this game in the event that PvP is not incentivized. A certain other related in production MMO failed because they walked away from PvP, Ashes has the potential to capitalize on this.

Nexmagus

I have no issue with siege and caravan pvp, but I am really against being jumped while in the open world and loosing anything to a PKer while not flagged. I do not think a non combatant should loose anything to the PKer

Drayen

This was the general consensus - I don't care about taking loot from a non-flagged person, most people didn't. However, opt-in PvP with no incentive was pure trash. People don't opt in.. it is known. I hope Ashes of Creation doesn't have the same problem. I see they have the corruption system, but if you are killing unflagged players at your level I hope it's not as devastating as it has been in the Asian-MMOs that pioneered this system.

I'm hoping that the open-world PvP scene is alive and thriving in this game.

Grails

Warth wrote: »

Here is the thing, you can't look at the corruption system and search for problems without factoring in the other in-game system that are exactly designed to prevent that.

On the same note, just taking a system (corruption), that worked greatly in Lineage 2, without considering the systems around it will not work. I trust Intrepid enough to believe they understand that.

Grails wrote: »

If one of the big guilds of the server decide dungeon X that has dragon mob Y in it is worth farming all the time for certain potion mats or something, even when they vastly out level the mobs, and I go in with my party of guildmates to try to get some levels/rewards. What stops the high level people from just taking everything? I have no pack of people to call on to help. They don't have to kill me to ruin the experience, they can just follow us and kill everything we tag. If they can kill a mob easily, while we meet the level requirements and take 30 seconds to kill a mob, the tagging doesn't help us, they'll do a large % of the damage quickly and take the drop.

Lineage 2, who inspired the corruption system dealt with this pretty efficiently. They drastically decreased the Loot and Experience players get from Content that is below/above them. You'd only get 100% of the loot if the content was within +4/-4 (?) Levels of your Character. You'd also get diminishing returns on exp depending on the Level difference. (Bosses were handled differently)

This pretty much invalidated the problem of high levels farming low level areas or boosting some of their guild mates.

Grails wrote: »

Then, what's to stop them from taking every boss kill? Just easily get to and sit in the boss area. We worked our butts off to get to the boss, we pull, they can then kick our assess while the boss also beats us up, then they take the kill while we rez or whatever, or just out dps us and take the boss drop too. There's no risk vs reward for them or us, we have no recourse to stop them they out gear and out level us, they have nothing to lose until corruption really kicks in. They can do it several times, or switch out guildies while the others farm mobs to reduce corruption, and repeat.

Also, what's the respawn times for bosses going to be like? Will the boss even be there when we finally make it? If it's a short timer and the dungeon is huge, like we've seen, people will just sit in the boss room and kill it over and over, but if it's long respawn, we'll get there and it will be dead already, and either we wait and many groups will probably pile up waiting and fight forever to get it, or we just don't get to kill it ever.

Judging based on the L2 inspiration once more, then the Respawn timer for raid size bosses should fall between 1 and 12 hours. Which extend up 7+ days for grand bosses. It's probably not gonna be much different here. Group sized "mini"-bosses should fall into the 30min - 4 hour range. This pretty much invalidates the camping of these raid sized bosses.

Why do you think you have the right to get the loot drop over them? Killing you would indeed by a risk v. reward system for them, as corruption is nothing to take lightly. Outperforming you within the boss fight itself? Not so much, but then again, I don't see any reason why you'd feel entitled to get the loot from this boss. It's not yours, get that out of your head, its a public boss, ready to be taken by anybody who tries. Either size up to take it for yourself or buy the materials dropping from the boss off the market.

It clearly is a highly contested spawn you are talking about, otherwise the large guilds wouldn't bother farming it. I can't quite put my finger on something... The though of feeling entitled to the highly contested bosses and spawns, while not putting in the effort to get them, feels very weird to me. I'm not quite sure where this sense of entitlement comes from, I'd guess WoW as that game handed everything on a silver platter to its player base. What it comes down to: People that will put more effort into the game will be rewarded for it.

A stronger guild (pvp or not) out-performing you on a boss to secure the loot isn't connected to the PvP system either. That's a strawman at best.

I'm not saying I'm entitled to anything, I'm asking how the systems work. It doesn't have to be crazy lucrative for people to say, "har har, let's go stop people from getting boss kills." In fact there is no reward in most games for killing lowbies over and over, but people love doing it. Intrepid don't want people to ruin other players experience with the game and kill lowbies over and over. I'm saying they don't have to kill you to ruin it. You can work your way through a difficult-for-your-level dungeon and then players you have no chance of beating can kill the boss just so you can't. I want to be able to enjoy the game and test my group against bosses, and be rewarded for it. It's not entitled, we would earn stuff by defeating the boss. They are taking away your boss fight and your possible loot. Jerks might not do it super often, because like you said they won't get much, but it would only have to happen to someone a couple times before a player says, fuck this game, I don't ever get anything cool.

I posted that comment you quoted as its own post cause this thread was in the wrong place. Other people helped me see the dungeon is more like a higher level/group zone with better drops, I was more thinking about it as a path to a boss, where the monsters in the way don't mean much. However I still don't really know how the game stops jerks from ruining people's experience in this way, getting creative with the tagging and/or corruption system.

mrwaffles

Nexmagus wrote: »

I have no issue with siege and caravan pvp, but I am really against being jumped while in the open world and loosing anything to a PKer while not flagged. I do not think a non combatant should loose anything to the PKer

you will not lose anything in this event. aside from maybe your grind spot and your patience.

@Aildust I hear you in regards to top level pvp guilds. AOC is taking pieces from games that had open world pvp. The following are truths about AOC:

this is not instance or theme park based but truly open world.
pvp is allowed in a majority of the world (without needing to request it)
open world dungeons are in fact open to anyone so a PK'r could just waltz up to you

Your scenario(s) mentioned are by design. There is also no alternative if the above mentioned stays true. Now as a person who has played, for years, every pvp game AOC is borrowing from i can tell you that there is always a balance. I am a pvp player and the majority of the KS backers talked about this subject to death (and thats a good thing). This game will have loads of pvp but there will be white knights and opposing factions to assist players like your self. This is all in addition to the built in systems too.

I'm not trying to discourage you to not play, but in fact come to terms with it and try to solve the issue with others in your same place. This game is going to be truly different then others and there for will have new scenarios like this to solve.

Jexz

Nexmagus wrote: »

I have no issue with siege and caravan pvp, but I am really against being jumped while in the open world and loosing anything to a PKer while not flagged. I do not think a non combatant should loose anything to the PKer

I don't think BiS gear should be gated behind PvE just so one can PvP

unfortunately there are only two options. Learn to deal with it or get into real estate and make our own MMO

mrwaffles wrote: »

Nexmagus wrote: »

I have no issue with siege and caravan pvp, but I am really against being jumped while in the open world and loosing anything to a PKer while not flagged. I do not think a non combatant should loose anything to the PKer

you will not lose anything in this event. aside from maybe your grind spot and your patience.

They will not lose equipped gear but they will lose the same amount of materials as well incur the same death penalties as they would if they died to PvE .
They will lose 50% less of that should they fight back.

Jexz

Grails wrote: »

I'm not saying I'm entitled to anything...They are taking away your boss fight...

It is not your boss fight it is open world boss fight and you have to earn the right to take it by what ever means the game allows. This is a fundamental concept in AoC it is how games were prior to WoW

Ai is either designed for you to beat it or it to beat you.
Think of the other players as AI gate keepers or a random world event that you must eliminate to earn your boss loot.
The perception to handle the defeat differently based on if AI beat you or a player did is all in your head.
It is by game design for this to interaction to happen.

Dementid

This game will be a great chance for PvE players to experience some PvP. Having a guild will help everyone even if your not much of a PvPer. But it sounds like PvP will play a pretty big role in this game. Once you learn how to PvP better with the help of guildies youl probably enjoy it- i wouldnt sweat it. It brings a whole new level of competition and VERY intense battles- especially if its over loot

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