Lostforever wrote: » Hi Steven, Thanks for taking the time to reply
Lostforever wrote: » Those who excludes players due to performance will always find a way to do that regardless of DPS meters or not. This happens in many games which do not have DPS meters. I point you towards GW2, ESO and swtor. Only way to work around this issue to hide pretty much all information about a player from other players. You have to hide their gear, stats etc. If you did that, you are breaking an egg with the hammer.
Lostforever wrote: » But without combat feedback from the game how can we learn by trail and error.
Lostforever wrote: » How will the "loosing" group know who much DPS they did to loose the loot right over the winner?
Lostforever wrote: » if the biggest argument against DPS meters is toxicity, then it does not fly in a PvP game since the amount of bad player behavior PvP bring to the game will be huge compared to the bad behavior DPS meters will bring. That's all I am saying .
Lostforever wrote: » Also in the latest dev stream, you mentioned that, loot rights are based on how much DPS a group is doing. So DPS is huge and important aspect in the game. How will the "loosing" group know who much DPS they did to loose the loot right over the winner? Will the game tell them somewhere? For example your group did 20% DPS and the other group did 80% DPS, therefore they get the loot right?
BlackBrony wrote: » Well well well!! "We will be providing combat data for individual players in their chat window, that players can filter and analyze for themselves." This pretty much clears everything up.
StevenSharif wrote: » Lostforever wrote: » Those who excludes players due to performance will always find a way to do that regardless of DPS meters or not. This happens in many games which do not have DPS meters. I point you towards GW2, ESO and swtor. Only way to work around this issue to hide pretty much all information about a player from other players. You have to hide their gear, stats etc. If you did that, you are breaking an egg with the hammer. I think this tends to be a standard misconception that acts in essentially this manner. Supposition; Eliminating DPS meters will not stop all exclusionary activities related to performance data gathering. Therefore; We should not try to stop any exclusionary activities related to performance data gathering I think it's important to remember, my decision is not intended to stop all toxicity relating to meters. We will be providing combat data for individual players in their chat window, that players can filter and analyze for themselves. The goal is to mitigate and make the toxic practice less prevalent through the ease that DPS meters provide. Also to place actionable enforcement for players who attempt to circumvent the decision by use of 3rd party programs, for which we will be monitoring.
Lostforever wrote: » ponzini wrote: » Lostforever wrote: » StevenSharif wrote: » Hello! The toxicity I am referring to for the meters does not contradict the participation trophy philosophy for the following reasons; IMO when you choose to exclude someone due to their performance or build (which happens often, not always) you are choosing the easiest path to success. This path is more easily available to groups that parse combat data through dps meters. The desire to obfuscate (or make less prevalent by not offering this feature) so that groups are encouraged to grow together and help one another become better by more old school/organic methods of trial and error, efforts in watching other people during the raid, by failing repeatedly until success is possible. Now, could people use meters to aid in this task? Yes, but in my experience it isn’t used in this way..more often it is an exclusionary tool designed to separate players. So to conclude, My stance on participation trophies is that things should be hard, people should fail, the bitter taste of defeat is what makes success that much more rewarding. Helping other players learn encounter strategy, and fine tuning their play style for high end content is an important part of eliminating participation trophy. Growing together is a good thing, and that include failing together as a means to drive for success together. My stance on dps meters, these help automate the encounter, provide an easier way to complete content, creates less failures by eliminating the less experienced or less optimized players, defeat becomes less bitter tasting because it is experienced less often, and the reward is now glancing at a chart and eliminating the lesser players. I’ve given my opinion and decision on the meters discussion and have read the opposing and supporting arguments. Hope those who disagree can understand the decision. If not, that’s ok too! ❤️ Hi Steven, Thanks for taking the time to reply I am posting this reply as in many places you have asked for feedback. My main aim is to get you to change your mind in some way and I hope that ok. And hopefully I don't come across as disrespectful Those who excludes players due to performance will always find a way to do that regardless of DPS meters or not. This happens in many games which do not have DPS meters. I point you towards GW2, ESO and swtor. Only way to work around this issue to hide pretty much all information about a player from other players. You have to hide their gear, stats etc. If you did that, you are breaking an egg with the hammer. Which is fine too as this is your game but I think the game will be poorer or it Yes DPS meters makes certain aspects of the game easier, no question about it. However you say the game has to be organic and we have to learn by trail and error. But without combat feedback from the game how can we learn by trail and error. For example, I hit a mob and I will know how much damage I did. Or I heal a mob, and I will know how much healing I did. We need basic information like this in the game, else you can't play it. Without feedback from the game, how can we learn by train and error? If this feedback is available then you have DPS "measure" in game anyway as players can see whats going on. Also in the latest dev stream, you mentioned that, loot rights are based on how much DPS a group is doing. So DPS is huge and important aspect in the game. How will the "loosing" group know who much DPS they did to loose the loot right over the winner? Will the game tell them somewhere? For example your group did 20% DPS and the other group did 80% DPS, therefore they get the loot right? 1. It will not happen as often though. Also why give those players another tool to exclude players? 2. You do have combat feedback. You will see your damage when you hit a mob and you have combat logs. You just wont have a meter than distills everyone you did down to a DPS number. You'll have to guage for yourself how to improve and now have your computer do it for you. 3. Same as above really. Figure it out on your own. You have combat logs and will just have to guage your performance on your own. If you have combat feedback, you have indirect DPS meters.
ponzini wrote: » Lostforever wrote: » StevenSharif wrote: » Hello! The toxicity I am referring to for the meters does not contradict the participation trophy philosophy for the following reasons; IMO when you choose to exclude someone due to their performance or build (which happens often, not always) you are choosing the easiest path to success. This path is more easily available to groups that parse combat data through dps meters. The desire to obfuscate (or make less prevalent by not offering this feature) so that groups are encouraged to grow together and help one another become better by more old school/organic methods of trial and error, efforts in watching other people during the raid, by failing repeatedly until success is possible. Now, could people use meters to aid in this task? Yes, but in my experience it isn’t used in this way..more often it is an exclusionary tool designed to separate players. So to conclude, My stance on participation trophies is that things should be hard, people should fail, the bitter taste of defeat is what makes success that much more rewarding. Helping other players learn encounter strategy, and fine tuning their play style for high end content is an important part of eliminating participation trophy. Growing together is a good thing, and that include failing together as a means to drive for success together. My stance on dps meters, these help automate the encounter, provide an easier way to complete content, creates less failures by eliminating the less experienced or less optimized players, defeat becomes less bitter tasting because it is experienced less often, and the reward is now glancing at a chart and eliminating the lesser players. I’ve given my opinion and decision on the meters discussion and have read the opposing and supporting arguments. Hope those who disagree can understand the decision. If not, that’s ok too! ❤️ Hi Steven, Thanks for taking the time to reply I am posting this reply as in many places you have asked for feedback. My main aim is to get you to change your mind in some way and I hope that ok. And hopefully I don't come across as disrespectful Those who excludes players due to performance will always find a way to do that regardless of DPS meters or not. This happens in many games which do not have DPS meters. I point you towards GW2, ESO and swtor. Only way to work around this issue to hide pretty much all information about a player from other players. You have to hide their gear, stats etc. If you did that, you are breaking an egg with the hammer. Which is fine too as this is your game but I think the game will be poorer or it Yes DPS meters makes certain aspects of the game easier, no question about it. However you say the game has to be organic and we have to learn by trail and error. But without combat feedback from the game how can we learn by trail and error. For example, I hit a mob and I will know how much damage I did. Or I heal a mob, and I will know how much healing I did. We need basic information like this in the game, else you can't play it. Without feedback from the game, how can we learn by train and error? If this feedback is available then you have DPS "measure" in game anyway as players can see whats going on. Also in the latest dev stream, you mentioned that, loot rights are based on how much DPS a group is doing. So DPS is huge and important aspect in the game. How will the "loosing" group know who much DPS they did to loose the loot right over the winner? Will the game tell them somewhere? For example your group did 20% DPS and the other group did 80% DPS, therefore they get the loot right? 1. It will not happen as often though. Also why give those players another tool to exclude players? 2. You do have combat feedback. You will see your damage when you hit a mob and you have combat logs. You just wont have a meter than distills everyone you did down to a DPS number. You'll have to guage for yourself how to improve and now have your computer do it for you. 3. Same as above really. Figure it out on your own. You have combat logs and will just have to guage your performance on your own.
Lostforever wrote: » StevenSharif wrote: » Hello! The toxicity I am referring to for the meters does not contradict the participation trophy philosophy for the following reasons; IMO when you choose to exclude someone due to their performance or build (which happens often, not always) you are choosing the easiest path to success. This path is more easily available to groups that parse combat data through dps meters. The desire to obfuscate (or make less prevalent by not offering this feature) so that groups are encouraged to grow together and help one another become better by more old school/organic methods of trial and error, efforts in watching other people during the raid, by failing repeatedly until success is possible. Now, could people use meters to aid in this task? Yes, but in my experience it isn’t used in this way..more often it is an exclusionary tool designed to separate players. So to conclude, My stance on participation trophies is that things should be hard, people should fail, the bitter taste of defeat is what makes success that much more rewarding. Helping other players learn encounter strategy, and fine tuning their play style for high end content is an important part of eliminating participation trophy. Growing together is a good thing, and that include failing together as a means to drive for success together. My stance on dps meters, these help automate the encounter, provide an easier way to complete content, creates less failures by eliminating the less experienced or less optimized players, defeat becomes less bitter tasting because it is experienced less often, and the reward is now glancing at a chart and eliminating the lesser players. I’ve given my opinion and decision on the meters discussion and have read the opposing and supporting arguments. Hope those who disagree can understand the decision. If not, that’s ok too! ❤️ Hi Steven, Thanks for taking the time to reply I am posting this reply as in many places you have asked for feedback. My main aim is to get you to change your mind in some way and I hope that ok. And hopefully I don't come across as disrespectful Those who excludes players due to performance will always find a way to do that regardless of DPS meters or not. This happens in many games which do not have DPS meters. I point you towards GW2, ESO and swtor. Only way to work around this issue to hide pretty much all information about a player from other players. You have to hide their gear, stats etc. If you did that, you are breaking an egg with the hammer. Which is fine too as this is your game but I think the game will be poorer or it Yes DPS meters makes certain aspects of the game easier, no question about it. However you say the game has to be organic and we have to learn by trail and error. But without combat feedback from the game how can we learn by trail and error. For example, I hit a mob and I will know how much damage I did. Or I heal a mob, and I will know how much healing I did. We need basic information like this in the game, else you can't play it. Without feedback from the game, how can we learn by train and error? If this feedback is available then you have DPS "measure" in game anyway as players can see whats going on. Also in the latest dev stream, you mentioned that, loot rights are based on how much DPS a group is doing. So DPS is huge and important aspect in the game. How will the "loosing" group know who much DPS they did to loose the loot right over the winner? Will the game tell them somewhere? For example your group did 20% DPS and the other group did 80% DPS, therefore they get the loot right?
StevenSharif wrote: » Hello! The toxicity I am referring to for the meters does not contradict the participation trophy philosophy for the following reasons; IMO when you choose to exclude someone due to their performance or build (which happens often, not always) you are choosing the easiest path to success. This path is more easily available to groups that parse combat data through dps meters. The desire to obfuscate (or make less prevalent by not offering this feature) so that groups are encouraged to grow together and help one another become better by more old school/organic methods of trial and error, efforts in watching other people during the raid, by failing repeatedly until success is possible. Now, could people use meters to aid in this task? Yes, but in my experience it isn’t used in this way..more often it is an exclusionary tool designed to separate players. So to conclude, My stance on participation trophies is that things should be hard, people should fail, the bitter taste of defeat is what makes success that much more rewarding. Helping other players learn encounter strategy, and fine tuning their play style for high end content is an important part of eliminating participation trophy. Growing together is a good thing, and that include failing together as a means to drive for success together. My stance on dps meters, these help automate the encounter, provide an easier way to complete content, creates less failures by eliminating the less experienced or less optimized players, defeat becomes less bitter tasting because it is experienced less often, and the reward is now glancing at a chart and eliminating the lesser players. I’ve given my opinion and decision on the meters discussion and have read the opposing and supporting arguments. Hope those who disagree can understand the decision. If not, that’s ok too! ❤️
Lostforever wrote: » StevenSharif wrote: » Helping other players learn encounter strategy, and fine tuning their play style for high end content is an important part of eliminating participation trophy. Growing together is a good thing, and that include failing together as a means to drive for success together. Sorry about the spam as I read and reread your reply, more thought are coming to my mind! How can we help each other and learn, if the game is obfuscate information from us? We need feedback from the game and if we have feedback, we can use that information for good and bad.
StevenSharif wrote: » Helping other players learn encounter strategy, and fine tuning their play style for high end content is an important part of eliminating participation trophy. Growing together is a good thing, and that include failing together as a means to drive for success together.
StevenSharif wrote: » Hello! The toxicity I am referring to for the meters does not contradict the participation trophy philosophy for the following reasons; IMO when you choose to exclude someone due to their performance or build (which happens often, not always) you are choosing the easiest path to success. This path is more easily available to groups that parse combat data through dps meters. The desire to obfuscate (or make less prevalent by not offering this feature) so that groups are encouraged to grow together and help one another become better by more old school/organic methods of trial and error, efforts in watching other people during the raid, by failing repeatedly until success is possible. Now, could people use meters to aid in this task? Yes, but in my experience it isn’t used in this way..more often it is an exclusionary tool designed to separate players. So to conclude, My stance on participation trophies is that things should be hard, people should fail, the bitter taste of defeat is what makes success that much more rewarding. Helping other players learn encounter strategy, and fine tuning their play style for high end content is an important part of eliminating participation trophy. Growing together is a good thing, and that includes failing together as a means to drive for success together. My stance on dps meters, these help automate the encounter, provide an easier way to complete content, creates less failures by eliminating the less experienced or less optimized players, defeat becomes less bitter tasting because it is experienced less often, and the reward is now glancing at a chart and eliminating the lesser players. I’ve given my opinion and decision on the meters discussion and have read the opposing and supporting arguments. Hope those who disagree can understand the decision. If not, that’s ok too! ❤️
Riegnar wrote: » StevenSharif wrote: » Hello! The toxicity I am referring to for the meters does not contradict the participation trophy philosophy for the following reasons; IMO when you choose to exclude someone due to their performance or build (which happens often, not always) you are choosing the easiest path to success. This path is more easily available to groups that parse combat data through dps meters. The desire to obfuscate (or make less prevalent by not offering this feature) so that groups are encouraged to grow together and help one another become better by more old school/organic methods of trial and error, efforts in watching other people during the raid, by failing repeatedly until success is possible. Now, could people use meters to aid in this task? Yes, but in my experience it isn’t used in this way..more often it is an exclusionary tool designed to separate players. So to conclude, My stance on participation trophies is that things should be hard, people should fail, the bitter taste of defeat is what makes success that much more rewarding. Helping other players learn encounter strategy, and fine tuning their play style for high end content is an important part of eliminating participation trophy. Growing together is a good thing, and that includes failing together as a means to drive for success together. My stance on dps meters, these help automate the encounter, provide an easier way to complete content, creates less failures by eliminating the less experienced or less optimized players, defeat becomes less bitter tasting because it is experienced less often, and the reward is now glancing at a chart and eliminating the lesser players. I’ve given my opinion and decision on the meters discussion and have read the opposing and supporting arguments. Hope those who disagree can understand the decision. If not, that’s ok too! ❤️ How about allowing players to monitor their own dps, and their own dps only? This way players can share their results with their friends and guild members for comparison and research, while at the same time not being able to exclude other players.
BlackBrony wrote: » Riegnar wrote: » How about allowing players to monitor their own dps, and their own dps only? This way players can share their results with their friends and guild members for comparison and research, while at the same time not being able to exclude other players.
Riegnar wrote: »
StevenSharif wrote: » Long before the advent of DPS meters, players were completing content through creative strategies and collective learning/observations. This type of content progression is the desired means of success in Ashes. It is harder, yes.
noaani wrote: » StevenSharif wrote: » Long before the advent of DPS meters, players were completing content through creative strategies and collective learning/observations. This type of content progression is the desired means of success in Ashes. It is harder, yes. Fact; MMORPG raid content pre-combat trackers was significantly easier than MMORPG raid content post-combat trackers. Early EQ raids - pre combat trackers - were as much about how many hundreds of players you could throw at an encounter, rather than being about how good those players were at working together. There are no examples of raids designed without combat trackers where the appropriate strategy is not to simply throw more players at it. I really hope this isn't a case of wanting to go back to "the good ole' days" here, since those days never actually existed, as these encounters were not actually enjoyable affairs for anyone involved. All they were was a thing players did because that is what the game at the time suggested the best thing to do was, and MMO players didn't yet realize they could stand up and ask the developers to put content in that was actually enjoyable in and of itself. I guess this now means my biggets fear in Ashes is that the only raid content will be non-instanced encounters where the most logical thing to do is to simply throw more players at it, rather than trying to get better at the game in general. Sounds like Archeages "raid" content, which was so boring I spent my time in that game growning trees instead. Edit; I just hope you are looking at decisions others have made in the industry you now find yourself, looking at the situation they were in, why they made teh decisions they made, and the results of those decisions. If not, you stand to make all those mistakes over again - which would be a shame for all involved.
