DPS Meter Megathread

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

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Linstead

No one is arguing that you need meters to kill content. Everyone knows you can kill content without meters. Monkeys can clear content. People want meters to be the best of the best. All this "just do it in the raid, trial and error!" is convoluted. Yeah, sure that helps your casual soccer mom guild clear the raid in a month, but what about people who want to rush world firsts? What about people who want to be the number 1 player of their class? What about people who want to speedrun the raids?

You NEED combat trackers for the OBJECTIVE DATA that they show and represent if you want to be that player. No one is arguing that you need them just to slowly and carefully clear content at your own pace.

Linstead

Also you haven't stated anything about the raid. It could have been normal mode baby shit that you've had on farm for 3 months or it could be mythic progression raiding (which I highly doubt) and that difference is staggering.

Valento92

Sandman wrote: »

Daedrik45 wrote: »

I really do hope Steve Sticks with his statement “ this game won’t be everyone” He and the devs have a good idea and are on a good path imo. All of my favorite games are coming together as one, a very exciting moment for the genre, let’s play the game first before we say what’s needed lol

Agree, I want him to stick to his vision and not fold for the masses, even if it's something I would love. SO far his vision is great and I sooooo cannot wait to play this game.

Completely agree. I hope we can find ways to strengthen his resolve towards this toxic tool.

BlackBrony

Linstead wrote: »

No one is arguing that you need meters to kill content. Everyone knows you can kill content without meters. Monkeys can clear content. People want meters to be the best of the best. All this "just do it in the raid, trial and error!" is convoluted. Yeah, sure that helps your casual soccer mom guild clear the raid in a month, but what about people who want to rush world firsts? What about people who want to be the number 1 player of their class? What about people who want to speedrun the raids?

You NEED combat trackers for the OBJECTIVE DATA that they show and represent if you want to be that player. No one is arguing that you need them just to slowly and carefully clear content at your own pace.

If you are the best player, it will show on your gear, your status, your PvP kills. Not on some random number obtained through non varied environment.

The skills will have numbers, you will have a chat window telling your combat log, plenty of information.

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/231474#Comment_231474

Linstead

BlackBrony wrote: »

Linstead wrote: »

No one is arguing that you need meters to kill content. Everyone knows you can kill content without meters. Monkeys can clear content. People want meters to be the best of the best. All this "just do it in the raid, trial and error!" is convoluted. Yeah, sure that helps your casual soccer mom guild clear the raid in a month, but what about people who want to rush world firsts? What about people who want to be the number 1 player of their class? What about people who want to speedrun the raids?

You NEED combat trackers for the OBJECTIVE DATA that they show and represent if you want to be that player. No one is arguing that you need them just to slowly and carefully clear content at your own pace.

If you are the best player, it will show on your gear, your status, your PvP kills. Not on some random number obtained through non varied environment.

The skills will have numbers, you will have a chat window telling your combat log, plenty of information.

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/231474#Comment_231474

You are so cute it hurts.

BlackBrony

Linstead wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

Linstead wrote: »

No one is arguing that you need meters to kill content. Everyone knows you can kill content without meters. Monkeys can clear content. People want meters to be the best of the best. All this "just do it in the raid, trial and error!" is convoluted. Yeah, sure that helps your casual soccer mom guild clear the raid in a month, but what about people who want to rush world firsts? What about people who want to be the number 1 player of their class? What about people who want to speedrun the raids?

You NEED combat trackers for the OBJECTIVE DATA that they show and represent if you want to be that player. No one is arguing that you need them just to slowly and carefully clear content at your own pace.

If you are the best player, it will show on your gear, your status, your PvP kills. Not on some random number obtained through non varied environment.

The skills will have numbers, you will have a chat window telling your combat log, plenty of information.

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/231474#Comment_231474

You are so stupid it hurts.

This clearly reveals you're not interested in knowing your performance, just in bragging to other about numbers. Exactly what Steven is trying to avoid.
Glad we don't have DPS Meters not Addons.

Also, have a wonderful day and wish you all the best in the world!

Rhaelah

Elder Soul wrote: »

I am against dps meter, I never use it.

But remember, you master you class using it first.

I wholeheartedly disagree, its possible to master your class without a meter at all. It's just that the definition of master changes because "master" is a relative term.

Daedrik45

I don’t agree, devs make a game and the content, the 1% tell people how to best play the content which then turns into the only acceptable way to play the game. I believe this is why wow was so great back in 2005, there was very little information on it except for quests (Thotbot is only thing I remember on it) people just played the game and when they accomplished something it was that much greater... BUT I do understand people wanting to be the best bc that’s how they like to play games. But imagine being the best with out using Addons that tell you when to move or what bottons to push at the perfect time, or using combat logs... YOU WOULD BE A LEGEND, I think that is the challenge Steve is presenting In this game. The question is are the 1% up to the challenge.

Linstead

No, me calling you out on your stupidity has nothing to do with my argument. I played in a top 100 world guild in WoW and have done mythic progression for years. I've played suboptimal classes/specs and I've played top tier and everything in between. Combat trackers may not be for everyone, and they are not needed, and I don't care if this game won't have them because I'm going to play it regardless.

But these piss poor arguments against it just drive me crazy. It shows that most people against combat trackers have no idea what they are talking about. Steven's only reasoning is "I don't like it and it doesn't fit with my vision" and that's 100% fine. But to say "Hey dude, I've played with combat trackers for years, simmed my dps for years, scoured raid logs for years, worked with the rotations/specs that 1% players have posted on the internet for years, and I did kinda good on a raid night with my meter turned off so meters are bad mmmmkay!" is stupid. It's not a good argument, especially when we don't know what kind of content he was doing. As a mythic raider I've never "stared at the dps meters and ignored boss mechanics" like OP is claiming he used to do before turning them off. Hell I don't even have them on my screen until the encounter is over.

And it shows when @noaani has made very good examples of how we could implement them into the game that would harm no one (like making it a specific guild perk that only works for those guildies and no one else) and people still have issues with it.

Daedrik45

I guess Addons like dps meter can be compared to social media... created with the best intentions, but we all what it’s turned into.

BlackBrony

Daedrik45 wrote: »

I don’t agree, devs make a game and the content, the 1% tell people how to best play the content which then turns into the only acceptable way to play the game. I believe this is why wow was so great back in 2005, there was very little information on it except for quests (Thotbot is only thing I remember on it) people just played the game and when they accomplished something it was that much greater... BUT I do understand people wanting to be the best bc that’s how they like to play games. But imagine being the best with out using Addons that tell you when to move or what bottons to push at the perfect time, or using combat logs... YOU WOULD BE A LEGEND, I think that is the challenge Steve is presenting In this game. The question is are the 1% up to the challenge.

The relevant input I can give to this is League of Legends.

When the game first launched you would play whatever you wanted, however. Taking champions in all lanes and stuff like that.
Then, around year 3-5 someone figured out "the best meta". It's not possible to play the game as you want, you know have to be limited by the meta. I mean, even Riot put the roles in game, you can't avoid them.
If you against this, you get reported, flamed, trolled.

So when you used to have liberty, you know have strict roles which you can't escape, even if playing at normals, which would mean like doing regular content.

The less you know, the better. Knowledge might give you specialization, but I think it takes away freedom.

Pantease

BlackBrony wrote: »

The skills will have numbers, you will have a chat window telling your combat log, plenty of information.

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/231474#Comment_231474

BlackBrony wrote: »

This clearly reveals you're not interested in knowing your performance, just in bragging to other about numbers. Exactly what Steven is trying to avoid.
Glad we don't have DPS Meters not Addons.!

If we have a combat log, but no dps meter, then there will be a way to measure performance and test out builds. However, all that leads to is a few particularly motivated individuals going through the combat log piece by piece, line by line to find the best of the builds they have the interest in checking. Whether we have dps meters or not ultimately just becomes a matter of how easy it is to check the efficiency of a build you like or what you're trying.

Having objective numbers to look at make for a much easier time assessing your own skill and build's efficiency. It may come with people using those numbers to inflate their egos or put other people down, but people who are interested in those things will always find some metric to use to do those things.

Rhaelah wrote: »

Elder Soul wrote: »

I am against dps meter, I never use it.

But remember, you master you class using it first.

I wholeheartedly disagree, its possible to master your class without a meter at all. It's just that the definition of master changes because "master" is a relative term.

You can probably do reasonably well without dps meters given enough other information and skill, but for the average player, it's far easier to use dps as a measuring stick to compare builds and rotations.

It takes a far greater degree of dedication and prep time to go through combat logs line by line with very accurate timestamps to truly master a class without dps meters, even with all the skill in the world. You CAN master a class without dps meters, but it's a heck of a lot more tedious.

Linstead

BlackBrony wrote: »

Daedrik45 wrote: »

I don’t agree, devs make a game and the content, the 1% tell people how to best play the content which then turns into the only acceptable way to play the game. I believe this is why wow was so great back in 2005, there was very little information on it except for quests (Thotbot is only thing I remember on it) people just played the game and when they accomplished something it was that much greater... BUT I do understand people wanting to be the best bc that’s how they like to play games. But imagine being the best with out using Addons that tell you when to move or what bottons to push at the perfect time, or using combat logs... YOU WOULD BE A LEGEND, I think that is the challenge Steve is presenting In this game. The question is are the 1% up to the challenge.

The relevant input I can give to this is League of Legends.

When the game first launched you would play whatever you wanted, however. Taking champions in all lanes and stuff like that.
Then, around year 3-5 someone figured out "the best meta". It's not possible to play the game as you want, you know have to be limited by the meta. I mean, even Riot put the roles in game, you can't avoid them.
If you against this, you get reported, flamed, trolled.

So when you used to have liberty, you know have strict roles which you can't escape, even if playing at normals, which would mean like doing regular content.

The less you know, the better. Knowledge might give you specialization, but I think it takes away freedom.

That's because league is a competitive game with a ranking system. You are free to play the non-competitive game modes and play however you want in them. Are you going to complain when no one wants to bring you to pvp arenas in Ashes when you are playing a garbage spec or they want a healer instead of a dps? No, because that's competitive.

Like I and noaani have said, implement them into guilds, so then competitive guilds can have them, and social guilds that don't want them don't have to use them, and pugs can't use them whatsoever. Then you make everyone happy and can have both a casual experience and a competitive experience and can make that decision for yourself. At the moment, competitive players are being forced into a world of mediocrity and spending countless hours, days, or even months trying to theorycraft without trackers and a bunch of garbage subjectivity blocking their progression.

Pantease

BlackBrony wrote: »

The relevant input I can give to this is League of Legends.

When the game first launched you would play whatever you wanted, however. Taking champions in all lanes and stuff like that.
Then, around year 3-5 someone figured out "the best meta". It's not possible to play the game as you want, you know have to be limited by the meta. I mean, even Riot put the roles in game, you can't avoid them.
If you against this, you get reported, flamed, trolled.

So when you used to have liberty, you know have strict roles which you can't escape, even if playing at normals, which would mean like doing regular content.

The less you know, the better. Knowledge might give you specialization, but I think it takes away freedom.

Have you ever watched competitive League games? They try weird, crazy things all the time that end up winning or doing very well, and normal players see it and try stuff like that out too. There are plenty of players that like to play it safe, but you are more than free to mess with the established meta in that game and have some degree of success. That community is particularly toxic, so you will have to deal with people reporting/flaming/trolling if you go for something weird all on your own without consulting your team first, but that has more to do with the community than how the game actually works out given your team is on board for something "weird" and new.

Comparing dps meters, which are a tool to help you improve your individual play to trying to convince a bunch of strangers to try a new group dynamic in a completely different genre of game also doesn't really make much sense for your argument. I'm not seeing how this is applicable to be entirely honest.

Linstead

Another good argument for combat trackers is that, without them people will gravitate towards a meta of "oh you aren't using this particular skill setup that xXxAshesChampion420xXx on youtube posted? Don't you know he's the best in the game lol? His builds are the very best! Get kicked!"

Meanwhile your build could literally be better, but you have no objective way to prove it without meters. My girlfriend who raided back in Cataclysm in WoW raided as Holy Priest, which everyone considered to be god awful, but she was constantly out healing disc priests (the favored choice) and proved that her spec was in fact viable. She was one of the most popular healers on her server because of this very fact. Without meters she never would have been invited because "HOLY SUXXX!"

Daedrik45

Like Steve said... “this game isn’t for everyone” wow is your home you can be mythic and hardcore all you want over there.

Linstead

Daedrik45 wrote: »

Like Steve said... “this game isn’t for everyone” wow is your home you can be mythic and hardcore all you want over there.

He also said that he wants this game to be left to player agency and that he wants a plethora of playstyles. Like noaani has said and many have said before him, if it's a guild perk then it does no harm to anyone, and allows a competitive scene in the game as well. There is no reason to not have both other than being stubborn.

Even if addons are a bannable offense, even if there is no tracker in the game itself, people will just use 3rd party simming websites instead. And you people will be right back here on the forums complaining about toxicity because you can't get into a pug because you're not performing well and your simmed dps sucks.

Daedrik45

Why do you need this to be competive? If no one has it then the playing field is level. And it’s just a guild vs a guild..... MJ became the goat bc of hard work ethic, not analytics.....

Pantease

Daedrik45 wrote: »

Like Steve said... “this game isn’t for everyone” wow is your home you can be mythic and hardcore all you want over there.

This game will still be worth checking out and having fun with even if it goes live without dps meters. The purpose behind my posting in favor of them is mostly my disagreement with the reasoning I've seen used for the absence of them. I'm sure many other people that take the time to make an account and argue this point probably feel similarly.

If Steve doesn't want them included, then it's his game, and I respect not only his stance on the matter, but also his resolve in sticking to it despite people like me arguing against it. I still want to play the game when it comes out. However, I will still happily argue the benefits of them when I see weak arguments being made about how awful they are for the health of a game and/or its community.

Linstead

Daedrik45 wrote: »

Why do you need this to be competive? If no one has it then the playing field is level. And it’s just a guild vs a guild..... MJ became the goat bc of hard work ethic, not analytics.....

Because an MMO attracts players from all walks of life? Because people like to be the best? Because people like to speedrun? Because people want to have the achievement of doing world first? Because people want to challenge themselves?

I'm not saying the entire game needs to be competitive.

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