"No participation trophy"

I have heard Steven say this number of times that this games gives "no participation trophy". You have to "earn" your rewards in the game. This is great and I am all for this.

However I have also seen Steven claims (indirectly) that if players excludes other players from their group for number of reasons such as poor performance (lack of dps etc), then that's a toxic behavior.

Is he not contradicting himself here? The idea of "No participation trophy" means you have to measure other people's performance. If you have a flying mount then you have put in the time and effort to do it and the flying mount is the measure.

So why can't player measures each others performance? Why is that toxic?

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StevenSharif

noaani wrote: »

I just hope you are looking at decisions others have made in the industry you now find yourself, looking at the situation they were in, why they made teh decisions they made, and the results of those decisions.

Oh I watch, and have experienced their decisions.

The results of their decisions, is the creation of Intrepid Studios.

Noaani

xXBelocXx wrote: »

The older games were very "zergy". These were the early days so they didn't have the benefit of years and years of multiplayer game development experience to draw on. So the concept of complex mechanics had not been "considered" at that point and even if it was, they were limited by the game engines at the time plus they never expected or had no real idea of what a "playerbase" would do. For a good example of this watch this interview with Lord British and how the players destroyed this complex ecology of Ultima Online overnight.

You are going a further 5 years back in time with that.

The five years between UO launching and raid content being made not shit was a period of learning for MMO developers (where they learned lessons some are about to relearn, it would seem).

The notion of adding more complex raid encoutners to the game was first bought up in 2000, but it wasn't until around 2002 (iirc) that it was made possible for the transition to really cross the line, as this is when players had access to data, and that data allowed players to keep an eye on more things, which allowed the develoeprs to design encounters with more going on at the same time. It also allowed players and guilds to get closer to each other in terms of capability, which meant that developers had a more focused difficulty in which to target content at. It meant they could target things at that difficulty knowing that it would pose a good challenge to all guilds while still being able to be killed.

What developers have absolutely no idea of right now is how much a player is able to keep track of without a combat tracker, as there are no games out there that have even attempted to find out this information.

There is a solid amount of knowledge in terms of what players can do with a combat tracker, but none as to what can be done without.

This has nothing to do with game engines, with technological improvements. Nor does it have anything to do with combat asssistants as per Rift (I left that game well before they were a thing).

All it has to do with is how much a person is able to keep track of in their head at one time.

BlackBrony

I'm actually glad with Steven's decision.
Combat tracker just gives too much information and avoid iterations.
It only takes 1 pull to know what type of damage the boss does, biggest damaging skill, and one shot mechanics.
Instead, if you have to visually guess it, takes more time, and it's also more mysterious.

For example, totally unrelated, but when playing Call of Duty Warzone and I start getting hit, it takes some time/ability to figure it out.
Where am I getting shot from?

Will people use meters? Sure. Then let them use them. But IS taking a harsh stance means a lot for the rest of the playerbase, because the game is not supposed to be played that way.
And if you choose to use an addon, suit yourself.

Plus if there are combat logs in the chat window, you can easily figure out what killed you after dying.

xXBelocXx

noaani wrote: »

xXBelocXx wrote: »

The older games were very "zergy". These were the early days so they didn't have the benefit of years and years of multiplayer game development experience to draw on. So the concept of complex mechanics had not been "considered" at that point and even if it was, they were limited by the game engines at the time plus they never expected or had no real idea of what a "playerbase" would do. For a good example of this watch this interview with Lord British and how the players destroyed this complex ecology of Ultima Online overnight.

You are going a further 5 years back in time with that.

The five years between UO launching and raid content being made not shit was a period of learning for MMO developers (where they learned lessons some are about to relearn, it would seem).

The notion of adding more complex raid encoutners to the game was first bought up in 2000, but it wasn't until around 2002 (iirc) that it was made possible for the transition to really cross the line, as this is when players had access to data, and that data allowed players to keep an eye on more things, which allowed the develoeprs to design encounters with more going on at the same time.

What developers have absolutely no idea of right now is how much a player is able to keep track of without a combat tracker, as there are no games out there that have even attempted to find out this information.

There is a solid amount of knowledge in terms of what players can do with a combat tracker, but none as to what can be done without.

This has nothing to do with game engines, with technological improvements. Nor does it have anything to do with combat asssistants as per Rift (I left that game well before they were a thing).

All it has to do with is how much a person is able to keep track of in their head at one time.

A little. Ultima Online was released on September 24, 1997 and using your timeline to 2002 this is 5 years of learning. This is when you had the "EQ" zerg raids for example. EQ coming our on March 16th 1999. So it supports that period of learning.

You cant discount the game engines at the time however as they were not as "powerful" as they are today so programmaticly you had far more limitations. Look at what you had access to.. Unreal v1, from the brand spanking new game Unreal, a custom 3D engine for EQ, Gamebryo for DAoC, etc. I even remember you couldn't even really play EQ unless you had a "3D" card like a Voodoo or Voodoo 2 from 3dfx..

But I do agree with that the amount of things one person can keep track of is something that has to be weighed. This is where dungeon design is critical. Dungeons will need to be designed with the fact that the player wont have access to certain information and will have to rely on one another to play there "role".

It will be interesting and it will be challanging.

Noaani

StevenSharif wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

I just hope you are looking at decisions others have made in the industry you now find yourself, looking at the situation they were in, why they made teh decisions they made, and the results of those decisions.

Oh I watch, and have experienced their decisions.

The results of their decisions, is the creation of Intrepid Studios.

There is a difference between experiencing a decision and understanding it.

Edit; the two are often mutually exclusive.

Samson1

Valento92 wrote: »

The truth is, it doesn't matter how many times the Creative Director clarifies, exemplifies and explains how the game will work in terms of DPS measurement, the ask for that tool that IS has been vehemently against will never cease to exist. It's like that in any MMO to existence and will ever be. It's better to stop hitting a dead horse and take discussions to another path as this feels like an endless loop at this point. Just look at how many threads converge to the same subject despite Steven speaking about it multiple times.

If you agree with Steven and is against this tool I suggest you no longer feed the discussion. It eventually starts being pointless.

This. It's like when parents have told their children no.. over and over again, but the children still keep saying "But why mommy, why" and just can't let it go.

Noaani

Samson wrote: »

This. It's like when parents have told their children no.. over and over again, but the children still keep saying "But why mommy, why" and just can't let it go.

No, it's more like when the developer of a product that you have put many hundreds of dollars in to on the word that said product will be somewhat aimed at the kind of player you are decides that the product is no longer being aimed at all at that particular type of player - and the player in question wants to querry the person making those decisions as to whether they were indeed the best possible course of action.

Samson1

noaani wrote: »

Samson wrote: »

This. It's like when parents have told their children no.. over and over again, but the children still keep saying "But why mommy, why" and just can't let it go.

No, it's more like when the developer of a product that you have put many hundreds of dollars in to on the word that said product will be somewhat aimed at the kind of player you are decides that the product is no longer being aimed at all at that particular type of player - and the player in question wants to querry the person making those decisions as to whether they were indeed the best possible course of action.

Ultimately, it's Steven's vision... And there are many people that agrees with him and the devs on this particular issue. If people spend money on a product they are not totally sure about, that's totally on them.

Noaani

Samson wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Samson wrote: »

This. It's like when parents have told their children no.. over and over again, but the children still keep saying "But why mommy, why" and just can't let it go.

No, it's more like when the developer of a product that you have put many hundreds of dollars in to on the word that said product will be somewhat aimed at the kind of player you are decides that the product is no longer being aimed at all at that particular type of player - and the player in question wants to querry the person making those decisions as to whether they were indeed the best possible course of action.

Ultimately, it's Steven's vision... And there are many people that agrees with him and the devs on this particular issue. If people spend money on a product they are not totally sure about, that's totally on them.

I totalyl agree, and have said that at least a dozen times on various threads in relation to this topic.

That doesn't mean we cant discuss it among ourselfs and occasionally direct a question at Steven, who may or may not answer.

daxiongmao87

noaani wrote: »

Samson wrote: »

This. It's like when parents have told their children no.. over and over again, but the children still keep saying "But why mommy, why" and just can't let it go.

No, it's more like when the developer of a product that you have put many hundreds of dollars in to on the word that said product will be somewhat aimed at the kind of player you are decides that the product is no longer being aimed at all at that particular type of player - and the player in question wants to querry the person making those decisions as to whether they were indeed the best possible course of action.

This is the risk of backing a game before it comes out. A risk everyone who pre-ordered should have been aware of. The money you put in doesn't buy you the ability to dictate how the game should be made. You aren't buying Intrepid shares.

xXBelocXx

@noaani I noticed your profile pic is of ACT. Are you one of the developers of ACT?

Noaani

xXBelocXx wrote: »

I noticed your profile pic is of ACT. Are you one of the developers of ACT?

Nope.

Edit; There was a comment a short while ago from one of the other long time posters here in regards to me having not got around to changing my default profile pic.

So I changed it.

Noaani

daxiongmao87 wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Samson wrote: »

This. It's like when parents have told their children no.. over and over again, but the children still keep saying "But why mommy, why" and just can't let it go.

No, it's more like when the developer of a product that you have put many hundreds of dollars in to on the word that said product will be somewhat aimed at the kind of player you are decides that the product is no longer being aimed at all at that particular type of player - and the player in question wants to querry the person making those decisions as to whether they were indeed the best possible course of action.

This is the risk of backing a game before it comes out. A risk everyone who pre-ordered should have been aware of. The money you put in doesn't buy you the ability to dictate how the game should be made. You aren't buying Intrepid shares.

I never said that was the case.

I am not demanding anything, I never have in this regard.

All I have done is put forward the best argument that I can on the topic. If you think that counts as demanding, that is probably because you can't find a suitable argument to counter the one I am putting forward.

The only argument people against combat trackers have is "because Steven said so", which isn't much of an argument when the discussion is whether or not that was a good decision.

Topcatrs88

My experience with DPS meters has always been toxic and noninclusive. I have experienced it time and time again. When I played WoW, Guilds would tell me to load up DPS meters or I wouldn't be allowed to raid with them, then they would exclude me because I don't live up to their standards, even casual ones. For this reason alone I haven't really been able to experience many raids or end game content. Eventually I just gave up angry and frustrated and waked away from the game. DPS meters are a tool of selfishness, often being used to push the numbers for the gain of the individual. If you have to access tools or information outside the game to be able to play or participate in its content than its a poorly designed game that just breeds toxicity. The reward in playing a game should be the enjoyment of the content. That's my 2 cents.

Noaani

Topcatrs88 wrote: »

My experience with DPS meters has always been toxic and noninclusive. I have experienced it time and time again. When I played WoW, Guilds would tell me to load up DPS meters or I wouldn't be allowed to raid with them, then they would exclude me because I don't live up to their standards, even casual ones. For this reason alone I haven't really been able to experience many raids or end game content. Eventually I just gave up angry and frustrated and waked away from the game. DPS meters are a tool of selfishness, often being used to push the numbers for the gain of the individual. If you have to access tools or information outside the game to be able to play or participate in its content than its a poorly designed game that just breeds toxicity. The reward in playing a game should be the enjoyment of the content. That's my 2 cents.

@Topcatrs88

That implementation of them is not great, this is true.

This is why the suggestion I have always made (from May last year) is that combat trackers should be tools that are only available to guilds that want them.

This means that the act of joining that guild means you now have access to a combat tracker, but it also means that it is in that guilds best interest to then assist you in getting to where they want you to be.

It forces guilds to take on the role of trainer for all new recruits, as there is no way to expect new recruits to be at the point where the guild will want them to be.

This means that all the new recruit needs to be willing and able to do is meet the guilds specific raid schedule, and be willing to learn and improve based on the new tools that they will now have access to.

Another interesting thing that I'd like to see considered is for guilds to have a 7 day block on recruiting new players (or longer) if they boot someone. This means that it really is in the guilds best interest to get some training in to new recruits.

SickBubblegum

I completely agree with @StevenSharif , I have been on either end of the whole DPS meter debate, more times than not it is more a tool to use to remove people from groups or yell at them despite them being new. Other aspects involve DPSers liking to grow their E-peen by having the highest number. It is no different than having a gear score to judge and exclude people.

As time goes on people will recognise particular items, people and move sets which may hint of their strength. The most fun in a game is overcoming obstacles without Batmans utility belt to do majority of the work for you.

I can count many of time how I would try to bite more than I could chew in PVP situations simply because I was unaware of other players gear and would flag up on someone over a contested zone (naturally being more aggressive in play style at the time) and then next minute pucker up hard because they were stronger than me.

I believe as long as you are doing the correct rotations and people are communicating with one another in regards to how to better their performance and or gear without the aid of tools brings a more old school vibe in the community. Dont get me wrong there will still be people kicking people from groups and probably requesting screenshots of gear before doing raids / dungeons so you cannot avoid this however that will be the minority that are head strong.

Lets just all experience what this game will offer and become immersed without the need of addons and other things from Day 1.

FuryBladeborne

Don't you love it when a DPS player chooses to ignore mechanics to focus on DPS and increasing the workload on the healer. Then when the raid wipes because healing lacks for everyone else, the DPS player blames everyone else while saying how great personal performance was just because the DPS number was higher. In this type of situation, the DPS player probably caused the wipe due to focusing on the meter.

Noaani

FuryBladeborne wrote: »

Don't you love it when a DPS player chooses to ignore mechanics to focus on DPS and increasing the workload on the healer. Then when the raid wipes because healing lacks for everyone else, the DPS player blames everyone else while saying how great personal performance was just because the DPS number was higher. In this type of situation, the DPS player probably caused the wipe due to focusing on the meter.

In this type of situation, the raid can simply show that it was that player that caused the wipe, using the combat tracker as irrefutable proof.

If a guild allows it's members to get away with this kind of behavior, then the issue is with the leadership of the guild, not with the combat tracker.

Noaani

noaani wrote: »

StevenSharif wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

I just hope you are looking at decisions others have made in the industry you now find yourself, looking at the situation they were in, why they made teh decisions they made, and the results of those decisions.

Oh I watch, and have experienced their decisions.

The results of their decisions, is the creation of Intrepid Studios.

There is a difference between experiencing a decision and understanding it.

Edit; the two are often mutually exclusive.

I'm going to quote myself and provide an example of what I am talking about here, as I think this could well be the most important factor in this discussion.

My previous career was that of a chef. I ran restaunt and hotel kitchens for many years, Often, we would have to make decisions that would seem outright wrong to one group of people, but to anyone with the full picture, it would be literally the only decision that could be made.

An example of this was a night where I had a group of 20 diners in one of our smaller private dining rooms. We had to hurry them along a little more than we - and no doubt they - would have liked. We basically skipped over several steps in the order of service, and even made them pour their own water (oh, the humanity!). I have no doubt that if there was someone at that table that had some money behind them and enjoyed eating out, they would have thought to themself "if I ever own a restaurant, I'm never going to rush my guests like this".

The thing is, this group of people didn't know that in the other dining room, we had a group of 550 other diners that were about to order. The smaller group were 10 minutes late, and so we had to rush them to make up that 10 minutes. If we didn't rush them, they wouldn't have recieved their meals until after the kitchen had fed that group of 550 - which would have been far worse for them.

These people experienced my decision, the same was Steven seems to be saying he has experienced the decisions of other MMO developers. However, the diners in my situation didn't understand the decision, and Stevens words suggest he is in that same situation.

There are, in my mind, three decisions in relation to combat tracker use that need to be considered.

The first is EQ, the first EQ. That game proved that in a vacuum, players will create and use tools.

The next decision was WoW, which says that developers can't leave these tools to go unchecked.

The third was GW2, which says that even if they are against the rules, they will still be used, probably to the point where the developer will have to concede.

The astute student of this genre can't look at these things and assume the right path to take is no combat tracker, as that doesn't exist. The person that only experienced the result of these decisions may well just go "DPS meterz are bad", with included 'z' for emphasis, and run with it.

This is why I say experiencing a decision and understanding a decision are different things.

DeJoke

Lostforever wrote: »

The main reason for banning DPS meters seems so that players can feel good about themselves and to me thats participation trophy

I disagree because I think DPS meters make encounters easier.

Personally, I'm all for a DPS meter verse a target dummy. It gives you a place to try out combos in a clean environment and makes it easier to test out the theory crafting you have done.

But I think for bosses and dungeons that making no DPS meter will make encourages a little harder. In a good way.

And I think it will be really hard to grudge people's real dps potential as Steven has stated previously that classes will synergize off each other to get more damage on the mob/boss. Someone may do less than half the damage of someone else, but that's because he's the support proc'ing a certain effect so that another class can capitalize on it and deal big damage.

So if a DPS meter was in the game, would that support get that damage from the other class rewarded to themself instead since he set it up? Would it be 50/50? Or would the other class who combos the ability to get all the reward on the DPS meter? So, I think it would more interesting to not see a DPS meter. So the blind can lead the blind and people who spend the time theory crafting are rewarded for their time.

Although, I haven't seen many people ask for this, but a group DPS meter for a target dummy would be awesome too! It wouldn't show individual DPS, but group DPS as a whole. I think that would be really cool for groups of 8 to try to get the highest DPS all together with their spells working together with synergies.

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