Bard Discussion

Hello everyone Damokles here once again, now that we got some more fresh blood in the forums!

Now what I want to talk about is, what you whish the Bard gameplay to be.
I for one hope that the bard will be one of the ramp-up stiles, where you start of slow and then keep on getting faster and faster until you hit your cap.

Example:
You have a attack that gives you and all other partymembers a 5% crit buff, which you can stack up 3 times with a 10sec cooldown and a 35sec duration. That would let you juggle the buff with a big juggle window.
It would still require you to keep on your toes but also gives you enough time to eventually dodge incomming attacks or deal with mechanics of you are good.

The bard skillcap here would be to juggle more and more buffs during the duration of the fight keeping track of all the buffs.

I dont really like the approach that many gamestudios did regarding the bard class, where we just stand around and cast buff after buff without really engaging with the boss fight except dodging attacks.

So, what do you guys think? Would you rather have a burst type of gameplay or a more balanced approach?

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Damokles

Warhog53 wrote: »

Firstly, OMG BARDS YESSS!

With that out of the way, pretty much my only experience with a bard was in EQ. Where you had a limited number of songs slotted, with short durations on each. This meant you could "twist" different songs in and out to fit the encounter, while still doing a bit of dps. EQ2 did away with the twisting, and made the bard effects more skill based. I far prefer the former.

Are there some other bard experiences you all would recommend to pull inspiration from?

Personally, the experience in EQ is my favorite, but I'm interested to know the direction of the studio

Best "Bard" I have ever played was the OG Chanter from AION.
Melee based with either a mace and shield or a twohanded staff, wearing chainmail. They had different auras that they could toggle, and their attacks either debuffed enemies or additionally buffed allies.
They could off-tank, heal and dps at the same time, being one of the best solo classes ever.

They also had straight up buffs that were pretty nice.

I was told that they were like cockroaches in PvP (I was more a PvE player at the time).

Niraada

I really enjoyed Zither's gameplay in Dragon Age 3, where you had "Songs", and a set of chords you could play, that you would line up to assemble each song and get a given effect. Weaving together chords and aligning when a particular song would drop, granting its effect was a lot of fun and had you constantly working to make sure you were always in a position to trigger a heal if a boss' big attack was about to come out, or a power buff for your team if it was about to fall off.

Yuyukoyay

I want to be bard solely because isuzu from log horizon is cute and it looked fun watching her play the everquest bard. I don't mind if bards do a lot of damage. They seem to be made from a different design philosophy from any other bard in mmos. They probably going to be the best support class though.

I'm not entirely sure how they turn out but they probably won't be easy targets like they are in other mmos. What I heard about them just doesn't really support the sit in the back and toggle buffs.

ZiZi-Jaz-Mina

maybe take a step back... we're comparing "bards" from other games. I know that AoC is combining a lot of great ideas from different games, but maybe we should look at the older RPG bards... i.e. like DnD bards? like song of rest while out of combat (i.e. not a replacement for healers. though maybe with a cleric augments you could do that skill in combat?) or resist songs?

Liftinmammals

I am so stoked to be a bard. To be a dwarven bard roaming the lands singing and dancing my way to glory from city to city. A lowly street performer making his way coin by coin, a hired singer for your weddings and festivals, and a member of your party there for moral support. *lute melodies fading away*

Yuyukoyay

We can be a dwarf bard duo and do the oompa loompa dance.

Damokles

Liftinmammals wrote: »

I am so stoked to be a bard. To be a dwarven bard roaming the lands singing and dancing my way to glory from city to city. A lowly street performer making his way coin by coin, a hired singer for your weddings and festivals, and a member of your party there for moral support. *lute melodies fading away*

I just checked up on the good old DnD Bard again, and I noticed something.

They had some really cool ideas behind them:
Cutting Words - you learn how to use your wit to distract, confuse, and otherwise sap the confidence and competence of others
Words of Power - One word spells that invoced the principles of the world

Weero

I am of the opinion that the Bard/Fighter combination should not be named Tellsword, but the much better name Skald. For what represents the Bard/Fighter better than a wandering sagatelling viking?

GlockenSnazel

From Everquest experience. A bard is the best of a support mage. Manna, Speed, and Mezzing. There will only be a few uber buffers. Be careful before you want to be a passive manna whore (tag from Everquest). Perfect role for lazy people. Just saying.

Yuyukoyay

Not gonna be their role in this game though. They won't have buffs that stay active without them in the party as opposed to everquest bards. Also most of their abilities right now are attacks.

Warhog53

Niraada wrote: »

I really enjoyed Zither's gameplay in Dragon Age 3, where you had "Songs", and a set of chords you could play, that you would line up to assemble each song and get a given effect. Weaving together chords and aligning when a particular song would drop, granting its effect was a lot of fun and had you constantly working to make sure you were always in a position to trigger a heal if a boss' big attack was about to come out, or a power buff for your team if it was about to fall off.

I haven't played DA3 but this lends to my point. A bard should have a certain rhythm while playing, a rhythm that rises and falls, speeds and slows as appropriate to the application. I am in the support camp. A bard should be a support cornerstone, with augmentation toward dps, tank, healing if desired and chosen through their second class, dirty, and abilities. Though not so much as to outshine those dedicated to the role. Fluid in their ability to adapt, a jack of all trades though master of none.

Warhog53

Diety. Darn mobile

Plixen

They said classes would be balanced like rock, paper, scissors, to me that sounds like a bard will beat many classes in 1v1. Reading people's comments, it sounds like most seem to think it'll be someone dancing and singing on the battlefield, just buffing teammates and not fighting at all.

Warhog53

Pl1x wrote: »

They said classes would be balanced like rock, paper, scissors, to me that sounds like a bard will beat many classes in 1v1. Reading people's comments, it sounds like most seem to think it'll be someone dancing and singing on the battlefield, just buffing teammates and not fighting at all.

Not sure if this was directed at me but, that is far from my intent. Most on vanilla EQ hated a duel with a well played bard because they had so many tricks up their sleeve. Most tricks got nerfed so hard people stopped playing them.

A bard in vanilla EQ might not kill you quickly, but they were absolutely capable of it. And would make you miserable while they did

Plixen

Warhog53 wrote: »

Pl1x wrote: »

They said classes would be balanced like rock, paper, scissors, to me that sounds like a bard will beat many classes in 1v1. Reading people's comments, it sounds like most seem to think it'll be someone dancing and singing on the battlefield, just buffing teammates and not fighting at all.

Not sure if this was directed at me but, that is far from my intent. Most on vanilla EQ hated a duel with a well played bard because they had so many tricks up their sleeve. Most tricks got nerfed so hard people stopped playing them.

A bard in vanilla EQ might not kill you quickly, but they were absolutely capable of it. And would make you miserable while they did

Wasn't aimed at anyone, just a general observation here and on Reddit

I tried bard in another game, think it might have been Rift(?), i remember that one to be pretty fun to play atleast, and i could kill stuff.

Warhog53

@SorianLore is there a decent L2 experience out there these days? I'd be game to try. I have like 2 years after all lol

Titillater

Warhog53 wrote: »

A bard in vanilla EQ might not kill you quickly, but they were absolutely capable of it. And would make you miserable while they did

Yes! I never played EQ but I like the sound of that. Bard should be an easy class to learn but difficult to master, and a well played bard would stand out. A healthy mix offense, crowd control, and support at the right time could be enough to turn the tides of battle. This is how I would like to play bard.

And then out of combat I would like to see a function similar to SWG entertainers, so that you can enjoy a rich social aspect amidst the throes of war. In that game you only had the social aspect as an entertainer, what if there was a way for someone to level a bard almost entirely through social related content? It might draw a type of player that might not otherwise be interested in the game.

Niraada

I would definitely like to see a meta skill implementation of the bard, where your main repertoire of skills is cast indirectly by aligning the use of your other skills.

This style of gameplay is first and foremost thematic to the archetype, but it's also extremely rewarding to play when used skillfully. A veteran Bard might opt for a more complex playstyle that rewards technical precision and forethought with the ability to layer multiple potent effects onto their party, while novice players could potentially see much simpler patterns allowing them to pick up the class easily, without necessarily "solving" it right away.

When I think of Bards and what they represent, the word that comes to mind is 'dynamic'. It's all about feeling the tempo and playing your tune, and there is a huge opportunity for this to be reflected in their gameplay, rather than letting them fall into the rotation trap that plagues many class implementations across the MMORPG genre.

With Ashes' hybrid action gameplay system, I think this would be a particularly good fit.

Another thing worth mentioning is that traditionally, class favour in MMO's tends to skew towards DPS classes, and while many do find support and healing classes exciting and rewarding to play in group content, they are often viewed as stressful or simply unrewarding by people who don't typically gravitate towards those classes. Offering a different style of play that's both rewarding and unique, while falling outside of the typical 'healbot' envelope could open up an avenue for more players to try out a part of the trinity that they previously wouldn't have considered.

Either way, I can't wait to get my hands on the Bard, and I hope that the rest of you are as passionate about Intrepid bringing the archetype to life as I am.

Warhog53

@Niraada I agree with pretty much all of this lol

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