Loot System

There has been a lot of HYPE for this game as of the last month or so, hence, it has reached my ears/eye.
I started to read the wiki and watch the varies youtube vids to learn more.

As someone who has played the largest population MMO currently in play, I have some experience with the loot system and especially MASTER LOOTER aka NINJA Loot system.

I CAN NOT BELIEVE that all these experienced MMO developers think that a loot system based on MASTER LOOTER is a good idea!!

The largest population MMO switched off of MASTER LOOTer about two years ago to the great cheers of all players! It is now using what they call Personal Loot along with a bonus roll if the player chooses.

So, my experience with Master Looter aka Master NINJA.
1. My guild had to use a system called DKP (Dragon Kill Points) to keep guild members happy (honest guild)
2. Some guilds had rules where the officers where geared up first (run from those guilds)!
3. PUGs is where the NINJA comes into play, when its time to distribute the loot, after three or more hours of killing and being killed, the LOOT MASTER conveniently disconnects! All the hours are wasted, poof goes the loot.

Given the nature of the loot drops in AOC, rarity of gear drop and high need for high quality crafting material, the opportunity for GREED/NINJA and just plain Dishonesty abounds!

How in everything that is right with the world can the Chief Muck Muck think that a loot system based on Master Looter is a good idea? It is lazy thinking.

This will create a nightmare for the GMs chasing and trying to restore stolen loot not to mention endless DRAMA in guilds.
Has no one learned anything from playing the early 2000 MMO's?

If the loot system is Master Looter, I for one will not waste my time because I already know what will happen, never again will I waste my time in a game using that system.

The distribution of loot from World Boss kills is another story. It also needs more thought put into it or the very least, testing.

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Comments

Lazyactor

petesmisc wrote: »

Yuyukoyay, Mate, its a lost cause, trying to go against the establishment is going to gets you (us) a rock on the head.

No point in debating it anymore.

Heck, its not even a debate, you would think if Nb4G is the same as PL, that at least we could agree to replace Nb4G with PL, but no, that cant happen either. Why you ask, because?:
"Yea personal loot is not the same.
It's the lazy boys variant for those who cannot roll because they haven't been returned from afk.
Have you never noticed all those afk people in raidfinder just auto attacking the boss?
That's why people truly need personal loot.
Can't roll if afk."

The BS just goes on and on. I'm out, closing my tab.

Jesus you are an insufferable prick aintch ya? Everyone here has said have every system available and let the party leader choose the loot system for the party. As long as everyone gets an alert if the rules are changed at some point there is no issue. In fact I forget what MMO it was that made at least half the party okay any changes before they went through. Combine that with a solid cooldown on loot rule changes to prevent shenanigans and all is fine. Literally everyone gets the system they want.

WTF is wrong with you? No one here is the establishment....the fuck are you talking about. These are your fellow gamers who do not agree with you. That is literally it. Everyone here wants personal choice and you want that choice to be taken away. This shouldnt be news for you. People want to have the freedom to pick. Grow up.

Jexz

Can we have pets that loot for us and cost 5$ each and need to be Tiered up through smashing each pet together with a % chance of failure and nothing gained. oh we should have room for 5 pets out at once.

Grievousness

Jexz wrote: »

Can we have pets that loot for us and cost 5$ each and need to be Tiered up through smashing each pet together with a % chance of failure and nothing gained. oh we should have room for 5 pets out at once.

What the....? No, of course not get back to bdo and stay there!

Yuyukoyay

I still want a system with no down sides over one that can be abused. PL is literally a better version of ML in every conceivable way even when it's done wrong. Debunked a while ago why ML doesn't lead to a more social system. It does the exact opposite.

I'd prefer a new system and not have a choice over loot. It should be decided by the game who gets what and if you don't want it you can trade.

People who don't have ulterior motives for the system should easily be able to agree with that. I'm questioning why there are some who don't.

Niraada

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

I still want a system with no down sides over one that can be abused. PL is literally a better version of ML in every conceivable way even when it's done wrong. Debunked a while ago why ML doesn't lead to a more social system. It does the exact opposite.

I'd prefer a new system and not have a choice over loot. It should be decided by the game who gets what and if you don't want it you can trade.

People who don't have ulterior motives for the system should easily be able to agree with that. I'm questioning why there are some who don't.

So you've now decided that your opinion is the only valid one and that anyone who disagrees with you has to have ulterior motives?

This mindset is absolutely toxic.

RahkstarRPG

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

I still want a system with no down sides over one that can be abused. PL is literally a better version of ML in every conceivable way even when it's done wrong. Debunked a while ago why ML doesn't lead to a more social system. It does the exact opposite.

I'd prefer a new system and not have a choice over loot. It should be decided by the game who gets what and if you don't want it you can trade.

People who don't have ulterior motives for the system should easily be able to agree with that. I'm questioning why there are some who don't.

Because, incredibly enough, your opinions about these systems aren’t actually facts. You’ve “debunked” nothing, and you continue to basically accuse anyone who doesn’t agree with you of being a horrible, selfish, evil person who wants a dragon horde of loot all for themselves to roll around in.

Still none of you have acknowledged that the personal loot system you suggest, where the boss drops the exact same amount of loot as it would under a master looter system but it is automatically distributed, is exactly the same as everyone needing in Need Before Greed. Either way, everyone has a perfectly equal RNG chance of getting any loot that is dropped.

So just... do that, and stop trying to take away our choices.

Yuyukoyay

Not really, but I do think there is a reason my position is so adamantly opposed that does not have to do with the betterment of the game. I think it's more toxic to misrepresent other's sides myself. I don't think I necessarily am as emotionally invested into this conversation as half of you. xD

However there has not really been any meaningful opposition to my points either. Aside from calling me stupid dupid face.

Especially when a lot of MMO's no longer even use the ML system anymore due to a lot of the things I have pointed out.

It's suspicious to support ML at all compared to trying to come up with a better system. Especially when more social games don't use it. Which is the only meaningful opposition to it and that isn't even true.

Shaladoor

I think context is the whole issue here. My biggest MMO experiences have been WoW, some rift, some Guild Wars 2, and FF14. But I'll use WoW as a reference point going forward.

For the record, I don't consider personal loot (PL) the same as "need before greed" (NB4G) where everyone auto-rolls Need. Very similar IMO, but the main difference is that in a NB4G system, it's possible for 1 person to roll perfect and get ALL the loot, whereas a PL system could safeguard against that by limiting the amount of loot that gets funneled to one person. However, if the PL system didn't do that, then why call it PL at all?

My 2 cents on that.

Gear in most MMOs has been primarily BoP (Bind on Pickup), meaning as soon as a player picked up a piece of gear it became soulbound, and couldn't be traded to other players. NB4G was abused by people rolling Need on stuff they didn't really need. Thus, ML became the primary way to distribute loot. It prevented NB4G abusers and gave more control for gear to go where it was needed best. Did people abuse it? They certainly did, no question. It's debatable to what degree it was abused. But, at the time, it was the best option available.

Then WoW introduced personal loot (PL) and ML was disabled (except for legacy runs I think? For transmog farming? I don't know the specifics on that). But personal loot became a thing. In a game like WoW, I think personal loot was a step in the right direction to prevent abuse, but I think it was actually a step backwards in allowing gear to be funneled to the right places.

With PL in WoW, if you get an item you don't need but it is an item level upgrade, you are unable to trade that gear to other players. Also, any bonus rolls that grant loot is unable to be traded. While an ML system didn't allow bonus rolls, it did allow the most flexibility in loot distribution. PL I think allowed more loot in the long run, but it also was more restrictive.

But! This is all relative to a game like WoW, where bosses drop tons of gear, and that gear (and most gear, really) is all BoP.

AOC isn't WoW, so you can't have a discussion on loot distribution without taking into account the availability of gear, amount of gear dropped, and restrictions on trading gear.

Most importantly, gear in AOC is going to be freely tradeable. ML was very important in its inception because gear wasn't able to be freely traded. ML will be less needed compared to WoW because of that ability to be freely tradeable. However, I will say, that a ML can very well abuse the system even MORE than in WoW, BECAUSE the gear will be freely tradeable. In WoW, a ML may just keep 1 or 2 keys items that they could actually use. But in AOC, they don't necessarily need to be able to use a piece of gear in order to want to steal it. Imagine a situation where a ML would say, "F everyone, I'm keeping this gear and selling it on the markets, it's super rare. Thanks for free gold!!" Naturally, everyone would just go PK his ass, but it's still possible. You can't deny the possibility of it happening, however you can certainly argue how often it would happen (extremely rare). I'm on the side that you will certainly notice what type of person your raid leader is long before a situation like this arises. Plus, like others have said, don't run with a group that uses ML. Put a cooldown on the ability to switch to ML, so you can't switch it an instant before pulling a boss. Make it give a raid warning when its changed. Make it so at least 50% of the group needs to vote on it. I don't think it needs to be removed entirely (yet).

AOC crafting will be a big thing. I think every player in a raid or involved in an encounter should get some degree of crafting materials. I don't believe all crafting materials should go to a ML. How would they effectively distribute that back out to players? The easiest and most hassle free way for a ML to handle tons of crafting mats would be to simply deposit them into a guild bank for people to use. But then it's still gated behind guild rules, and just requires more permissions. And what if it isn't a guild group, how would a ML distribute that out? In those cases, it seems to me that ML isn't the solution. Make crafting mats PL, and everyone gets their share.

AOC loot in raids/dungeons/world bosses, if I recall, isn't going to be very common (at least, a lot less common than WoW, for sure). In fact, the rarer the loot is from these sources, the more valuable crafted items will be. Plus crafters will be able to shift/assign attributes of gear to best suit the person buying the gear. Loot dropped from encounters doesn't allow that. For two items of similar level (one from a boss, one that's crafted), I believe the crafted one to be more valuable due to the flexibility in assigning stats.

Personally, I'm a fan of the bidding system. Let the person with the highest bid get the loot they want, and everyone else gets a cut of that bid. It's been a while since I've seen a bid system used, but I never had an issue with it. It's very much like a built in DKP system, except you use gold.

TL;DR
Ability to trade gear freely is important when evaluating loot distribution methods. I'm not a fan of ML and won't run with it in groups I don't trust. Crafting will reduce the importance of loot dropped bosses/dungeons/raids. I like a bidding system. Love all of you.

Yuyukoyay

The problems that ML solved won't be in the game most likely. Gear is also freely tradable. Gear being freely tradable alone means we don't really need ML. That said the entirety of the thinking around distribution of gear to the correct places is flawed when you are in a situation of limited drops. That's only a problem when drops don't matter and you get so many shitty drops.

This game won't have WoWs loot meta. No matter what system you pick it's going to be balanced with that in mind. There is no reason to latch onto ML when better systems are easy to make. Practically anything is better than ML in a fresh game.

The gear should go by luck and since it's freely tradable guilds can do whatever the hell they want no matter what the system actually is.

Niraada

@Yuyukoyay The problem is this stopped being a discussion when you started disregarding others opinions as invalid, insinuating that people who don't agree with you are nothing but parasites looking to exploit others.

Loads of people have tried to actually discuss the subject, and rather than engage, you've decided that they're piling on to attack you while you belittle them.

I think your conduct in this thread has been demeaning and unhealthy for the community.

mcstackerson

Eh, with the number of resources that will be dropped, I'd think it would be silly if groups did not have the option for one person to collect everything so it can be distributed later. I'm all for the system being designed to clearly tell the party members the current loot systems as well as making it so that the party leader can not change the system without the approval of the other group members.

Yuyukoyay

I disagree. I think they are free to think anything they want just like I have been doing. However it's not going to stop me from telling them that their viewpoints, clearly intending to do just as you accusing me of, are not founded on honest reasoning. How can it be because it's not a fair system by it's very nature. Everyone should have a say together and not just 1 person for loot.

The problem is the strong resistance to a fair system everyone can be happy with.

If it was like that for the class system no one would be happy. You can't be this class and have to be this class instead because the guild said so. Invisible wall blocking you from leaving a node cuz the guild said so.

Rather it be a system founded in democracy than tyranny.

Lazyactor

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

I disagree. I think they are free to think anything they want just like I have been doing. However it's not going to stop me from telling them that their viewpoints, clearly intending to do just as you accusing me of, are not founded on honest reasoning. How can it be because it's not a fair system by it's very nature. Everyone should have a say together and not just 1 person for loot.

The problem is the strong resistance to a fair system everyone can be happy with.

If it was like that for the class system no one would be happy. You can't be this class and have to be this class instead because the guild said so. Invisible wall blocking you from leaving a node cuz the guild said so.

Rather it be a system founded in democracy than tyranny.

The middle ground in this whole discussion is literally have multiple loot systems and let parties decide which one they want to use....The fact you wont meet the opposing side in the middle ground suggests despite what you said that you are indeed emotionally invested. That and posting three times in a row. KEK.

Yuyukoyay

Lazyactor wrote: »

The middle ground in this whole discussion is literally have multiple loot systems and let parties decide which one they want to use....The fact you wont meet the opposing side in the middle ground suggests despite what you said that you are indeed emotionally invested. That and posting three times in a row. KEK.

No the middle ground is PL with free trading. Which makes literally no difference to guilds either way. Having ML in the game is the entire problem. It's not a system you can just ignore because it's going to ruin everyone's experience whether there is a choice or not. ML will find a way to screw over someone not as intelligent or just a newer player.

It's literally comparing a system with a glaringly obvious flaw to one with no flaw. People don't want to be forced to play with ML either. Which is the most likely discourse despite being the worst system.

It would be better to eliminate the problem than let it stick around.

The pro ML side is literally just going to end up as a bunch of cliches and their friends getting everything. Then everyone else getting nothing until they feel like it. It's literally what happens in WoW with ML. It makes a lot of sense too considering the low amount of guilds WoW has. Active ones not dead ones. It's got over 100 000 dead ones.

There are other factors that determined this, but when few to none of your competitors are using a system it means there is something wrong with it. Also I don't post in a row. I at least let people respond so they can do my work for me.

I'm not going to meet at something less than the middle ground. Especially for something that could potentially destroy the game. I don't understand the WoW community's obsession with ML so much. You guys like to screw each other so often that it's become normal?

When a system just existing can potentially cause problems despite choice. That system needs to go.

Jexz

I don't see how you can argue against there being options to choose from.
ML has the potential for abuse yes. But it also has the potential to be even more fair by circumventing RNG.

If I do a pug and see ML I'll leave. If I join a guild and they want to ML and I like their loot distribution plan fine. If they want to feed the main group see ya later. I'm sure there will be guilds that do NG.
Arguing so passionately against something you do not have to participate in seems like a waste of energy.

BaSkA_9x2

This is a "don't blame the game, blame the player" type of situation. Personal Loot is not good for some reasons, and I believe these reasons resonate a lot in AoC. If you do not want to get ninja'd, make sure the party loot setting is random - hopefully the game won't let the loot system to be changed after one player enters the dungeon.

Regardless of the loot system, one thing is certain: don't play with people you don't trust and/or always make sure you're the party leader.

Caeryl

BaSkA13 wrote: »

This is a "don't blame the game, blame the player" type of situation. Personal Loot is not good for some reasons, and I believe these reasons resonate a lot in AoC. If you do not want to get ninja'd, make sure the party loot setting is random - hopefully the game won't let the loot system to be changed after one player enters the dungeon.

Regardless of the loot system, one thing is certain: don't play with people you don't trust and/or always make sure you're the party leader.

But in this case you absolutely can blame the game. When loot rules are set up in such a way that abuse is clearly enabled, why would you expect someone to support it?

Personal Loot, RNG Loot, whatever term you call it by, is the best option in a free trade system. The system has minimal potential for abuse, because at worst you can “steal” a small amount of materials that the game assigned to you. In a Master Loot system, one player can run off with everything, there’s no way to reduce that potential abuse because the system is designed to give someone total loot control.

Guilds can still decide who gets what if the raid group agrees. For groups that do not agree to funnel loot, typically happens in PUGs or more casual runs, they shouldn’t have to.

Tbh I’d be fine if ML was just removed entirely. Any other system is preferable to it, as all of the other have less inherent abuse capabilities.

Jexz

I disagree the same argument can be used in favor of ML.
Let's say you have a guild and have been running raids for a long time and have a point system. You get a new member who has agreed to that point system you take them along on their first run while the guild is on their 100th plus. The first legendary drops and that new member got it . Now every single person has more points aquired that new player he just G quits.

There is no reason to argue against any of these loot systems when you can just make it an option. Letting the players decide what they want to use. Obviously the ability to change it last second should not be possible. Perhaps when it is changed to ML a pop up appears for people to accept.

Niraada

So the arguments here can be summed up pretty simply I think.

Player Choice: "Players should have the option to choose."

Pro PL: "Players should have the option I choose."

Glad to see people staying objective.

Dicdonya

Caeryl wrote: »

I do prefer complete RNG in loot distribution.

It all comes down to one major point: The impact of bad faith in a Master Loot system is much more severe than the impact of bad faith in a Personal Loot system.

We can completely eliminate the potential harm from bad faith Master Loot systems, and Personal Loot can be made to work like Master Loot for group that agrees to give all loot to one player, with minimal inherent risks of bad faith affecting the distribution.

Sorry but your logic here is flawed.

In a master loot situation you have to hope that ONE person in the group is honest and does not screw everyone over.

In the personal loot situation you just described, you now have to hope that EVERY person in the group is an honest person and will not screw everyone else over.

Remember that loot in this game is mostly not BOP, thus if an item drops that is worth 1mil gold or whatever , who is more likely to distribute that item fairly within the guild. A guildmaster or lootmaster that has a vested interest in their guild, or some guy that just joined 3 days ago, and happened to get some expensive, SELLABLE, drop he cant use on the first run?

IMO the choice is fairly evident as to which scenario has the higher likelihood of drama, and severe impacts.

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