DPS Meter Megathread

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Noaani

@Drek

Drek wrote: »

A personal dps dummy to test your builds and rotations out is as far as it should go, or make it somekind of "personal arena" that are instanced where people can test tanking / healing and dps'ing...

Even combat logging shouldn't be allowed to be "extracted" in any way using 3rd party software to a 3rd party website/program to run sims should be a bannable offense honestly.

The problem is the difference between making a rule, and being able to enforce it.

DeJoke

My take on the DPS meter is to remove it. As it can make encounters easier and then the development team will have to make encounters arbitrarily harder.

But I like the idea of having a target dummy that gives you a DPS meter.

I also like the idea of having a target dummy for a group DPS meter as a whole, not individual meters. This lets your 8 man party synergize as Steven said classes will play off each other to deal more damage if timed correctly.

Yuyukoyay

Why would you want a damage meter/combat tracker at all then. That's the main system that makes people in WoW act that way.

Noaani

@Sangramoire

Sangramoire wrote: »

I think that having DPS and other meters is a really good way to optimize the fun out of the game. I don't consider myself a hardcore player but one of the reasons I couldn't get into WoW was because of all these meters and statistics to min/max a character. It made the game so easy for you to figure out that it left nothing for you to look forward to. You're basically a robot spamming buttons in specific rotations. It's just not interactive.

This is an issue with the game design of WoW, not with combat trackers.

It is far more accurate to say that WoW is a game that is so easy for you to figure out it left nothing for you to look forward to, and that you are basically a robot smapping buttons in a specific rotation.

If you take the combat trackers out of that game, you are still left with that games basic design, which is where these things all come from.

If you know that your group isn't doing enough DPS to counter a specific boss mechanic that is wiping the raid, then now the question is, why are you not doing enough DPS? This is where a group would be able to use a meter to easily find why or rather quickly point a finger at someone and kick them out of the raid and that's what we're trying to avoid. There can be many reasons as to why someone wasn't doing as much DPS as someone else. Quickly pointing a finger at someone is not the right way to use the meter. If you use the meter properly, now the question should become, why is that person not doing enough DPS?

I completely agree with this last point.

You only want DPS meters to be available in situations where it is in everyones best interests to help someone that hasn't quite got it, not boot them from the group/raid.

This is why the suggestion that I have been making for over a year now (probably somewhere near the start of this thread) is that Intrepid should build a combat tracker directly in to the games client, but make it available as a guild perk, that can only track the members of that specific guild.

With this, you straight away have a combat tracker that only people that want combat tracker access will be able to use. You have a system where people that don't want input from a combat tracker simply don't have any avenue for that input to get to them. You have a system where anyone whose combat is being tracked is in a position where the peopel tracking them are best served by helping that person rather than disposing of them.

When combined with all the ways that Intrepid have already removed a lot of the genesis for negative social interactions (see my post above in reply to Yuyukoyay), and you have a system where literally no one in the game will ever be in a position to say that a combat tracker is causing negativity.

The other thing this does, that I personally think is even better, is that it forces the role of trainer on to raid guilds. When recruiting a new player, there is absolutely no way to know how well that player performs, so recruiting is done based on player not numbers. Then when the player joins the guild, there is a complete and total understanding between all involved that this new recruit has not had the opportunity to improve themselves with the aid of objective data. As such, the guild has to give this player time to work on improving their ability - and the player also has to be in a situation where they know they will need to work on improving. Since this is the first chance the player would have had, these expectations would essentially go without saying.

Noaani

@Bolorny

Bolorny wrote: »

Shaladoor wrote: »

While I'm fine without a DPS meter, how would Devs be able to balance the game without them? Would they be actively monitoring combat behind the scenes, using tools only available to GMs and such?

If you genuinely think class balance is solely based on dps, you are missing a huge part of the picture.
Class balance is, more or less based on multiple factors such as Power, Versatility, and Utility.

That means that there will be :
-class with high damage output but low versatility, low utility, (dps glass cannons)
-class with average damage output, high versatility, low utility, (solo class)
-class with average damage output, low versatility, high utility, (tank class)
-class with average damage output, but average versatility, average utility, (hybrid class)
-class with low damage output, low versatility, high utility, (support heal / control class)
etc...

And that will be balanced because they will do what they are meant to do.
DPS is only a tiny part of the balance equation !

If you genuinely think that DPS is all a combat tracker (or DPS meter) can inform you of, then you are missing a huge part of the picture.

A combat tracker can tell you how much damage the tank took, mitigated, dodged, reflected and blocked.
A combat tracker can tell you how much healing a healer performed, how much they overhealed.
A combat tracker can tell you how long a CC player maintained CC on how many targets, and can tell you who broke that CC.
A combat tracker can tell you how long a given buff was up on a player, or debuff on a mob, and who exactly had it up for how long.

DPS is indeed only a tiny part of the balance equation, and only a tiny part of what a combat tracker can tell you.

This is why I don't use the term DPS meter, but rather combat tracker. It is far more accurate a term, and means people that don't know what they are talking about won't simply assume we are only talking about measuring DPS.

Grails

Personally I like that you don't want dps meters in groups, but I would like to have a personal dps meter outside of dungeons, like against a target dummy so I can test my own builds and see how much damage a skill does with a fire augment vs a holy augment, or something like that. Will there be anything like that in the game?

Noaani

@LockedOut

LockedOut wrote: »

I'm personally against addons. Addons tend to make the content too easy, or add drama where there otherwise wouldn't be any. It's the job of the developer to make sure there's enough customization within the base UI (something like ffxiv works great).

The only argument I could see for something like a dps meter is for the most difficult content. If your team is failing content because some people are not pulling their weight, it's hard to find a solution without some of the tools a dps meter would give. I can't tell you how many times I use warcraftlogs to help my teammates improve. Steven likes talking about two sides of the sword, and the other side is that people also use warcraftlogs to just bash other players, sometimes on stuff they have no control over like their class, or race.

So for me the elitism, making the content easier, and the general boost in toxic behavior that comes with addons is not worth the good may come from their addition. I believe this scale changes depending on the difficultly of the content though. More difficult content = easier to argue for addons.

The issue with this is that WoW is a game where your personal relationships with others on your server don't really mean anything.

If everyone on your server in WoW hates you, because you keep bashing players over their class or race choice, it makes no difference to how you play the game. You can still find groups and raids to run the content that almost all players in WoW are running.

Due to how little impact it has on your gaming, more and more people do it. Due to how many people do it, fewer and fewer people bother trying to remember who it was that did it.

The end result is an infested swamp full of toxicity in a manner that has not been seen in any other MMO.

In a game like Ashes, if you start bashing people for their race or class, those players that you are bashing are the ones that you will want to be grouping with later on today, and tomorrow, and next week. They are the players that will help you defend your node from attack, and if you lose, defend you freehold from being ransacked.

It will become very clear to people very early on in Ashes that the people that are around you are your biggest asset, they will impact how your time in game goes even more than you will, and so you best treat them with the respect that they deserve.

As such, even if full combat tracker were implemented in Ashes, they will almost never be used in a toxic manner against other players - they will be used as a tool to assist those that want the assistance.

The issue with WoW isn't the combat trackers, it is the entire design of the game.

ogre

Just dropping a comment in the megathread to say that I personally am against DPS meters, even if they're personal or guild-based. Including a meter of any sort will inevitably result in situtations where players are asked to prove what their DPS is in order to join a group or access specific content with others, i'm sure it would go as far as asking for screenshots in the event of personal meters.

I would infinitely rather fail a raid boss or dungeon a few times and struggle through it as a group rather than see players kicked or ignored for not reaching some arbitrary DPS number, even if it means "carrying" a player who might not be very good at the game. Despite the fact that a meter or tracker can provide unbiased data they would almost certainly be used as a measure to separate and exclude players.

For those arguing that raiding or other content is too difficult without a meter or tracker to tell you what's going on....perhaps use critical thinking to analyze the issues that you're encountering and talk to your group/guild mates about what is going wrong during the encounter. You can then refine your strategy or brainstorm a new one for your next attempt, and help people who don't understand the encounter to understand it.

Noaani

@Yuyukoyay

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

Why would you want a damage meter/combat tracker at all then. That's the main system that makes people in WoW act that way.

People in WoW act that way because the entire game allows for it.

If the entire game allows for it, but the game doesn't have combat trackers, people will still act that way. They will still bash others for their class or race choice, or for their gear, even without objective data to prove the point. Archeage is a perfect example of this.

If the entire game doesn't allow for it, people don't act that way. It is this simple, and does not require the removal of combat trackers.

Orlando2

I hope it will be bannable offense otherwise we will see all kinds of addons, not just for dps measurements.

Noaani

@ogre

ogre wrote: »

I would infinitely rather fail a raid boss or dungeon a few times and struggle through it as a group rather than see players kicked or ignored for not reaching some arbitrary DPS number, even if it means "carrying" a player who might not be very good at the game. Despite the fact that a meter or tracker can provide unbiased data they would almost certainly be used as a measure to separate and exclude players.

The only way a combat tracker would be used to exclude a player in any game, is if that game is built around there being no negative aspect to excluding that player.

As soon as there is a negative aspect to excluding players, people start finding ways to not do that. The main way to not exclude players from difficult content is to instead assist them on being at a point where they are able to meet the requirements of that content.

If combat trackers are then restricted to guild use, as I have suggested in the past, what that does is allow players to make a choice.

They can decide, if they want, to join a guild with no combat tracker. They then have no pressure to perform, no expectations, no nothing. This is perfectly fine for a good number of the playerbase.

On the other hand, they can decide to join a guild that does have a combat tracker. In such a guild they may well have expectations of their performance put on them eventually, but that isn't something that every player dislikes. Players taking this choice are doing so knowing what they are getting in to, and chose to go in to it.

In this last case, you have a guild full of people that are efficiency based in their gameplay, accepting other people that are efficiency based in to their game play. Someone that doesn't play the game in that way should probably find another guild to play in - just as someone that does RP should probably not join an RP guild.

Now, I completely agree that players that don't want to have to deal with combat trackers in game shouldn't have to do so. This is fair.

However, the flip side of that should be that those players taht do want them, that do enjoy them, should have access to them.

Since every MMO ever has had combat trackers, it would be foolish to think Ashes won't. The question we should be asking is as to what form those combat trackers should take, and the only person that has the ability to make that decision has already decided that it will be overly invasive third party trackers.

I'm still of the opinion that i would like to change his mind.

ZiZi-Jaz-Mina

Fiia wrote: »

SorianLore wrote: »

[...]interact with people and mentor folks, and you won't need to see exactly how much dps each person is doing, cause you'll beat the boss and it won't matter at that point.

Actually that's not quite true, it all depends on how the boss mechanics work. Also there's other MMOs than WoW out there that have dps meters. I'm all for dps meters, at least a personal one, that only displays your own dps for yourself, imo one really fun component of an MMO is the theorycrafting and testing of abilities.

Apart from this whole discussion though, I think IS very well knows that they can't implement boss mechanics such as dps checks if they don't allow any kind of dps meters, so I think not having a dps meter won't be an issue in this game. I really do hope that the difficult boss fights will be very challenging.

Sure, there are games that have them, most games I've played that don't, do have the players' dps in the chat log.

noaani wrote: »

@Yuyukoyay

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

Why would you want a damage meter/combat tracker at all then. That's the main system that makes people in WoW act that way.

People in WoW act that way because the entire game allows for it.

If the entire game allows for it, but the game doesn't have combat trackers, people will still act that way. They will still bash others for their class or race choice, or for their gear, even without objective data to prove the point. Archeage is a perfect example of this.

If the entire game doesn't allow for it, people don't act that way. It is this simple, and does not require the removal of combat trackers.

You don't need "the entire game" to allow it... human beings tend to focus on singular things for the most part when looking for blame. the easier you make it for players to blame folks, the more you'll see it be an issue. Many games have proven very hard fights to not need DPS meters to win it, you instead rely on understanding and knowing your team. If this game is anything like L2, it will not be PUG friendly especially because of the pvp risk associated with inviting pugs to groups, so guilds/alliances will need to work together to take down bosses, or at the very least a very trusted few cause remember, wiping the team and taking the boss is a thing

ZiZi-Jaz-Mina

noaani wrote: »

@ogre

ogre wrote: »

I would infinitely rather fail a raid boss or dungeon a few times and struggle through it as a group rather than see players kicked or ignored for not reaching some arbitrary DPS number, even if it means "carrying" a player who might not be very good at the game. Despite the fact that a meter or tracker can provide unbiased data they would almost certainly be used as a measure to separate and exclude players.

The only way a combat tracker would be used to exclude a player in any game, is if that game is built around there being no negative aspect to excluding that player.

As soon as there is a negative aspect to excluding players, people start finding ways to not do that. The main way to not exclude players from difficult content is to instead assist them on being at a point where they are able to meet the requirements of that content.

If combat trackers are then restricted to guild use, as I have suggested in the past, what that does is allow players to make a choice.

They can decide, if they want, to join a guild with no combat tracker. They then have no pressure to perform, no expectations, no nothing. This is perfectly fine for a good number of the playerbase.

On the other hand, they can decide to join a guild that does have a combat tracker. In such a guild they may well have expectations of their performance put on them eventually, but that isn't something that every player dislikes. Players taking this choice are doing so knowing what they are getting in to, and chose to go in to it.

In this last case, you have a guild full of people that are efficiency based in their gameplay, accepting other people that are efficiency based in to their game play. Someone that doesn't play the game in that way should probably find another guild to play in - just as someone that does RP should probably not join an RP guild.

Now, I completely agree that players that don't want to have to deal with combat trackers in game shouldn't have to do so. This is fair.

However, the flip side of that should be that those players taht do want them, that do enjoy them, should have access to them.

Since every MMO ever has had combat trackers, it would be foolish to think Ashes won't. The question we should be asking is as to what form those combat trackers should take, and the only person that has the ability to make that decision has already decided that it will be overly invasive third party trackers.

I'm still of the opinion that i would like to change his mind.

Actually sometimes you need to not give people the choice. you don't put alcohol in front of an addict and "give them the choice" to not drink... Also L2 didn't have combat trackers, not allowed ones anyway. many mmos didn't in fact.

Daedrik45

I’m going to use ESO as an example.... Pc players have Addons..... council players do not... yet the content still gets cleared and sometimes more efficiently.....

Pantease

SorianLore wrote: »

Actually sometimes you need to not give people the choice. you don't put alcohol in front of an addict and "give them the choice" to not drink... Also L2 didn't have combat trackers, not allowed ones anyway. many mmos didn't in fact.

Comparing people who would prefer DPS meters to addicts that feel a compulsion or desperate need for something is a little disingenuous, and belittling and rude to the people who would prefer them to exist in the game.

Giving a choice on use of DPS meters, on a guild-by-guild basis, seems like an excellent compromise because by joining a guild, you can choose to either opt in or out of this surprisingly controversial option. If you're playing with others who choose not to use it, then you can play without fear of people using them against you and not feel at all like you're missing out. If you're playing with others that choose to use them, then you're with people who have a similar drive to maximize their potential output in an objectively measureable way.

If what you meant to imply by your comment was that people who like DPS meters will choose them if given the option, then you're probably right... but that's a given.

LockedOut

noaani wrote: »

@LockedOut

LockedOut wrote: »

I'm personally against addons. Addons tend to make the content too easy, or add drama where there otherwise wouldn't be any. It's the job of the developer to make sure there's enough customization within the base UI (something like ffxiv works great).

The only argument I could see for something like a dps meter is for the most difficult content. If your team is failing content because some people are not pulling their weight, it's hard to find a solution without some of the tools a dps meter would give. I can't tell you how many times I use warcraftlogs to help my teammates improve. Steven likes talking about two sides of the sword, and the other side is that people also use warcraftlogs to just bash other players, sometimes on stuff they have no control over like their class, or race.

So for me the elitism, making the content easier, and the general boost in toxic behavior that comes with addons is not worth the good may come from their addition. I believe this scale changes depending on the difficultly of the content though. More difficult content = easier to argue for addons.

The issue with this is that WoW is a game where your personal relationships with others on your server don't really mean anything.

If everyone on your server in WoW hates you, because you keep bashing players over their class or race choice, it makes no difference to how you play the game. You can still find groups and raids to run the content that almost all players in WoW are running.

Due to how little impact it has on your gaming, more and more people do it. Due to how many people do it, fewer and fewer people bother trying to remember who it was that did it.

The end result is an infested swamp full of toxicity in a manner that has not been seen in any other MMO.

In a game like Ashes, if you start bashing people for their race or class, those players that you are bashing are the ones that you will want to be grouping with later on today, and tomorrow, and next week. They are the players that will help you defend your node from attack, and if you lose, defend you freehold from being ransacked.

It will become very clear to people very early on in Ashes that the people that are around you are your biggest asset, they will impact how your time in game goes even more than you will, and so you best treat them with the respect that they deserve.

As such, even if full combat tracker were implemented in Ashes, they will almost never be used in a toxic manner against other players - they will be used as a tool to assist those that want the assistance.

The issue with WoW isn't the combat trackers, it is the entire design of the game.

This was the same argument that was made for classic wow. People would be held accountable. The reality is that Classic WoW, a game with really casual content, is being treated like it's a hardcore game. Sorry, I agree that part of it can definitely be the game design, but honestly the community is now very different then it was in 2004, or earlier. Everyone is always trying to min-max, and that's the most important thing, addons encourage this behavior.

Noaani

@SorianLore

SorianLore wrote: »

You don't need "the entire game" to allow it... human beings tend to focus on singular things for the most part when looking for blame. the easier you make it for players to blame folks, the more you'll see it be an issue. Many games have proven very hard fights to not need DPS meters to win it, you instead rely on understanding and knowing your team. If this game is anything like L2, it will not be PUG friendly especially because of the pvp risk associated with inviting pugs to groups, so guilds/alliances will need to work together to take down bosses, or at the very least a very trusted few cause remember, wiping the team and taking the boss is a thing

Humans tend to focus on single things, sure, but they don't make decisions based on single things. This is why people place the blame on combat trackers rather than on a much more complex set of circumstances. It's a single thing they can point their finger at and place blame, even though it isn't even remotely accurate to do so.

In terms of making a decision though - you are not going to boot someone out of your group if there is no reasonable way to replace them. This is because even though we may look at a single thing in terms of placing blame, we look at the bigger picture in terms of actions.

It absolutely is also true that the easier you make it for people to blame others, the more they will do so, but it is also true that the harder you make that blame take the form of booting people from a group, the less likely that action will become.

The idea here, from my perspective, is not to prevent people from being able to see who is at fault. The idea is to be able to see who is at fault, and then be in a situaiton where the best course of action is to work with that person to help them improve.

As to games that have proven you don't need combat trackers - I don't think this is a relavent point. There is no AAA MMO on the market that doesn't have a combat tracker for it - if you know where to look. As such, it is not really possible to say other games have proven you don't need a combat tracker, as there are no games that exist without combat trackers.

L2 , as an example, absolutely does have combat trackers. One tracker that I can think of from that game in particular is likely to work in Ashes with no more than 30 minutes worth of additional effort. This is one that was made by a person I have been following for a while now that is working on a tracker for Ashes - though they were expecting it to be much harder than it now appears it is going to be.

This persons tracker for L2 has almost half a million downloads - but that is only the ones from their site, players are able (even if not encouraged) to distribute it freely among their friends. This is also only one tracker, there are others.

The problem with that game is people just don't talk about it, even if 10% or more of the population use them (which is an estimation, to be sure).

You are absolutely right that Ashes won't be a particularly PuG friendly game though. That kind of eliminates the main complaint that people have against combat trackers, as it is always pick up type situations where problems occur (more specifically, pick up situations in WoW).

Noaani

@Daedrik45

Daedrik45 wrote: »

I’m going to use ESO as an example.... Pc players have Addons..... council players do not... yet the content still gets cleared and sometimes more efficiently.....

The thing with this is that those console players have the benefit of the knowledge that PC players have gained from using combat trackers.

You don't need to be running one yourself in order to reap the biggest reward of combat trackers - which is in having players in a position to review the developers work.

Noaani

@LockedOut

LockedOut wrote: »

This was the same argument that was made for classic wow. People would be held accountable. The reality is that Classic WoW, a game with really casual content, is being treated like it's a hardcore game. Sorry, I agree that part of it can definitely be the game design, but honestly the community is now very different then it was in 2004, or earlier. Everyone is always trying to min-max, and that's the most important thing, addons encourage this behavior.

People will min/max regardless. Min/maxing has been around since at least the 1980's with tabletop games, it isn't going anywhere.

In order for you to make this argument, you need to believe that efficiency based gameplay (or min/maxing) is not a valid way to play a game. Clearly, I disagree with this entire premise, and consider the player seeking efficiency in game to be as valid as the player seeking achievement, exploration, roleplay or economic success. These are all valid ways to play an MMO, and should all be catered to equally.

While some people may have said that people in WoW would be held accountable for their actions, the game has literally no systems in place to support that, and multiple systems to undermine it.

If the design of the game is not going to hold players accountable for their actions, no one will. Therefore, it is literally 100% on the design of the game to hold players accountable for their actions in game.

Cameron Bittner

Chill with words big. Change mind.

No logs. No dps chart. No damage done. No heals done.

You will be able to tell if some one is doing damage or not. You will be able to tell if some one can heal through the dungeon or not. You will be able to see the numbers on the screen and formulate ideas about how ye skills, skill points, and gear, and rotation is doing.

If you like the get the most out of your character( midmax ), trust me, this is how you want to do it. It may take longer, the game just not telling you but after you spend the time to learn the game and your class you would enter a higher echelon of being.... people are going to figure it out and post cookie cutter builds still.... but at least their might be just enough play for someone that really bonds with their class to really let his enemy feel the difference without just really on out gearing/stats.

Please do not let weird elitist infest the soul of this game.

They knoweth not the $%*# they do.

Child Item