Linstead wrote: » Sangramoire wrote: » Someone still has yet to give a specific situational example in which a tracker would be more beneficial than harmful. I've given multiple of examples of how they are likely to be used in a negative way but I can't really think of any positives. If the positives outweigh the negatives then that's when it would be worth it to have a tracker but so far not a single person has made an argument as to how exactly a combat tracker would be beneficial. In which specific situation would a combat tracker be more beneficial than harmful? Read the thread then, because there have been many.
Sangramoire wrote: » Someone still has yet to give a specific situational example in which a tracker would be more beneficial than harmful. I've given multiple of examples of how they are likely to be used in a negative way but I can't really think of any positives. If the positives outweigh the negatives then that's when it would be worth it to have a tracker but so far not a single person has made an argument as to how exactly a combat tracker would be beneficial. In which specific situation would a combat tracker be more beneficial than harmful?
Linstead wrote: » nelsonrebel wrote: » Pantease wrote: » nelsonrebel wrote: » But... A dps number meter 😂 come on Trying out different builds and trying to do the best you can is part of the fun and challenge in an mmo for some people, myself included. A DPS meter is a tool people like me use to measure whether I'm doing better by using a different kind of gear or a different set of skills or talents or augments or what-have-you. I take pride in bringing my A game to encounters I do with friends and guildmates, and having the tools to ensure that I am adds to my enjoyment of the game. I have fun trying out silly things and seeing if they're any good. I've spent years in an mmo with DPS meters playing a build that was unorthodox on a spec that was considered underpowered, still knowing that I'm doing well and not holding anyone back BECAUSE I had meters to test with. I got to spend years playing the way I wanted to (which was very much against what was meta and considered good at the time) because I had the tools available to me to test out the build to make sure it was capable. DPS meters have made mmos more fun for me not only because I get to see my improvement, but also because they help me try things out and experiment and play the way I want to without hindering anyone else's enjoyment of the game. I've said this multiple times now though. I've got no problem with an optional PERSONAL and private source of determining what your damage is that you CHOOSE to share with others if you want Not somethings thats forced on people because one mans a napolean micro manager forcing his measures like epstein himself. Ok, then you are on our side of wanting Guild Perk combat trackers. You can opt in or out of those and no one is forcing them upon you.
nelsonrebel wrote: » Pantease wrote: » nelsonrebel wrote: » But... A dps number meter 😂 come on Trying out different builds and trying to do the best you can is part of the fun and challenge in an mmo for some people, myself included. A DPS meter is a tool people like me use to measure whether I'm doing better by using a different kind of gear or a different set of skills or talents or augments or what-have-you. I take pride in bringing my A game to encounters I do with friends and guildmates, and having the tools to ensure that I am adds to my enjoyment of the game. I have fun trying out silly things and seeing if they're any good. I've spent years in an mmo with DPS meters playing a build that was unorthodox on a spec that was considered underpowered, still knowing that I'm doing well and not holding anyone back BECAUSE I had meters to test with. I got to spend years playing the way I wanted to (which was very much against what was meta and considered good at the time) because I had the tools available to me to test out the build to make sure it was capable. DPS meters have made mmos more fun for me not only because I get to see my improvement, but also because they help me try things out and experiment and play the way I want to without hindering anyone else's enjoyment of the game. I've said this multiple times now though. I've got no problem with an optional PERSONAL and private source of determining what your damage is that you CHOOSE to share with others if you want Not somethings thats forced on people because one mans a napolean micro manager forcing his measures like epstein himself.
Pantease wrote: » nelsonrebel wrote: » But... A dps number meter 😂 come on Trying out different builds and trying to do the best you can is part of the fun and challenge in an mmo for some people, myself included. A DPS meter is a tool people like me use to measure whether I'm doing better by using a different kind of gear or a different set of skills or talents or augments or what-have-you. I take pride in bringing my A game to encounters I do with friends and guildmates, and having the tools to ensure that I am adds to my enjoyment of the game. I have fun trying out silly things and seeing if they're any good. I've spent years in an mmo with DPS meters playing a build that was unorthodox on a spec that was considered underpowered, still knowing that I'm doing well and not holding anyone back BECAUSE I had meters to test with. I got to spend years playing the way I wanted to (which was very much against what was meta and considered good at the time) because I had the tools available to me to test out the build to make sure it was capable. DPS meters have made mmos more fun for me not only because I get to see my improvement, but also because they help me try things out and experiment and play the way I want to without hindering anyone else's enjoyment of the game.
nelsonrebel wrote: » But... A dps number meter 😂 come on
Sangramoire wrote: » You're really contradicting yourself when you say you want to push your class to it's limits but you would like some sort of challenge. Trackers make it easier to get a class to it's limits so it takes out that challenge which is why I'm personally against it. A lot of people are against it because trackers can be misused to kick people and whatnot but me personally I don't like them because they make the game easier and you said it yourself. Once you got trackers you realize that people you thought were good really aren't because that data now is being handed to you rather than you having to go get your own data and actually experiment with builds.
Sangramoire wrote: » Linstead wrote: » Sangramoire wrote: » Someone still has yet to give a specific situational example in which a tracker would be more beneficial than harmful. I've given multiple of examples of how they are likely to be used in a negative way but I can't really think of any positives. If the positives outweigh the negatives then that's when it would be worth it to have a tracker but so far not a single person has made an argument as to how exactly a combat tracker would be beneficial. In which specific situation would a combat tracker be more beneficial than harmful? Read the thread then, because there have been many. I've read it over the past two days and can't really recall any give me an example
nelsonrebel wrote: » Linstead wrote: » nelsonrebel wrote: » Pantease wrote: » nelsonrebel wrote: » But... A dps number meter 😂 come on Trying out different builds and trying to do the best you can is part of the fun and challenge in an mmo for some people, myself included. A DPS meter is a tool people like me use to measure whether I'm doing better by using a different kind of gear or a different set of skills or talents or augments or what-have-you. I take pride in bringing my A game to encounters I do with friends and guildmates, and having the tools to ensure that I am adds to my enjoyment of the game. I have fun trying out silly things and seeing if they're any good. I've spent years in an mmo with DPS meters playing a build that was unorthodox on a spec that was considered underpowered, still knowing that I'm doing well and not holding anyone back BECAUSE I had meters to test with. I got to spend years playing the way I wanted to (which was very much against what was meta and considered good at the time) because I had the tools available to me to test out the build to make sure it was capable. DPS meters have made mmos more fun for me not only because I get to see my improvement, but also because they help me try things out and experiment and play the way I want to without hindering anyone else's enjoyment of the game. I've said this multiple times now though. I've got no problem with an optional PERSONAL and private source of determining what your damage is that you CHOOSE to share with others if you want Not somethings thats forced on people because one mans a napolean micro manager forcing his measures like epstein himself. Ok, then you are on our side of wanting Guild Perk combat trackers. You can opt in or out of those and no one is forcing them upon you. Wrong I'm only on the side of people having a PERSONAL and PRIVATE tracker that a player CAN share if he or she CHOOSES Nothing more, and ultimately I would prefer none.
Linstead wrote: » Ok, lets say you are trialing for a competitive raiding guild. Your DPS is low and is under the threshold requirement to join, so to raise it up you go through the combat tracker to figure out why people of your same class are out damaging you and how you could emulate their strategies or come up with your own strategy to increase your DPS to be above that threshold. Also many people have pointed out (me, noaani, pantease, and some others) that combat trackers can be a boon because it immediately lets a class leader or raid leader know what the problem is and how to remedy that problem. They can work together with their guildmates for the betterment of the group. People in WoW are disposable, because server transfers, teleporting, looking for group/raid, etc. In this game, there won't be any of that, so no one is going to just kick a low dps raider 3-4 hours into a raid night. They won't be able to replace that person in a timely manner, so the best thing to do would be to go over the combat tracker with them and figure out what went wrong and how everyone can be better. Without combat trackers, it's just hectic. "Why are we wiping?" "Idk! Maybe dps is low?" *proceeds to bash their heads in at the boss for another hour* "WHY ARE WE STILL WIPING?" "I DONT KNOW, FUCKING SHITTER DPS MAYBE!" *raid ends and everyone is mad* Then it turns out the reason people were wiping was because the healers weren't properly dispelling. No one knew because there were no trackers. Everyone is mad. And their lockout is ruined. Sure they could have spent the next week theorycrafting about what went wrong and coming up with "subjective" reasons why it happened until they managed to get it right, but combat trackers negates all that hassle, all the stress, and makes raiding more fun. You wouldn't have nights where people just give up because no one knows what is happening for hours.
Sangramoire wrote: » Linstead wrote: » Ok, lets say you are trialing for a competitive raiding guild. Your DPS is low and is under the threshold requirement to join, so to raise it up you go through the combat tracker to figure out why people of your same class are out damaging you and how you could emulate their strategies or come up with your own strategy to increase your DPS to be above that threshold. Also many people have pointed out (me, noaani, pantease, and some others) that combat trackers can be a boon because it immediately lets a class leader or raid leader know what the problem is and how to remedy that problem. They can work together with their guildmates for the betterment of the group. People in WoW are disposable, because server transfers, teleporting, looking for group/raid, etc. In this game, there won't be any of that, so no one is going to just kick a low dps raider 3-4 hours into a raid night. They won't be able to replace that person in a timely manner, so the best thing to do would be to go over the combat tracker with them and figure out what went wrong and how everyone can be better. Without combat trackers, it's just hectic. "Why are we wiping?" "Idk! Maybe dps is low?" *proceeds to bash their heads in at the boss for another hour* "WHY ARE WE STILL WIPING?" "I DONT KNOW, FUCKING SHITTER DPS MAYBE!" *raid ends and everyone is mad* Then it turns out the reason people were wiping was because the healers weren't properly dispelling. No one knew because there were no trackers. Everyone is mad. And their lockout is ruined. Sure they could have spent the next week theorycrafting about what went wrong and coming up with "subjective" reasons why it happened until they managed to get it right, but combat trackers negates all that hassle, all the stress, and makes raiding more fun. You wouldn't have nights where people just give up because no one knows what is happening for hours. This exactly proves my point and is the reason why I personally don't want trackers in the game. They make the game easier and just hands you information instead of people actually putting in the work to analyze the situation. In that specific situation that you mention you merely need to approach systematically to find where your problem lies rather than just automatically scream "I DON"T KNOW, FUCKING SHITTER DPS MAYBE!" That's just not the way to approach the situation which I would say the guild wiping over and over is well deserved.
Linstead wrote: » Sangramoire wrote: » Linstead wrote: » Ok, lets say you are trialing for a competitive raiding guild. Your DPS is low and is under the threshold requirement to join, so to raise it up you go through the combat tracker to figure out why people of your same class are out damaging you and how you could emulate their strategies or come up with your own strategy to increase your DPS to be above that threshold. Also many people have pointed out (me, noaani, pantease, and some others) that combat trackers can be a boon because it immediately lets a class leader or raid leader know what the problem is and how to remedy that problem. They can work together with their guildmates for the betterment of the group. People in WoW are disposable, because server transfers, teleporting, looking for group/raid, etc. In this game, there won't be any of that, so no one is going to just kick a low dps raider 3-4 hours into a raid night. They won't be able to replace that person in a timely manner, so the best thing to do would be to go over the combat tracker with them and figure out what went wrong and how everyone can be better. Without combat trackers, it's just hectic. "Why are we wiping?" "Idk! Maybe dps is low?" *proceeds to bash their heads in at the boss for another hour* "WHY ARE WE STILL WIPING?" "I DONT KNOW, FUCKING SHITTER DPS MAYBE!" *raid ends and everyone is mad* Then it turns out the reason people were wiping was because the healers weren't properly dispelling. No one knew because there were no trackers. Everyone is mad. And their lockout is ruined. Sure they could have spent the next week theorycrafting about what went wrong and coming up with "subjective" reasons why it happened until they managed to get it right, but combat trackers negates all that hassle, all the stress, and makes raiding more fun. You wouldn't have nights where people just give up because no one knows what is happening for hours. This exactly proves my point and is the reason why I personally don't want trackers in the game. They make the game easier and just hands you information instead of people actually putting in the work to analyze the situation. In that specific situation that you mention you merely need to approach systematically to find where your problem lies rather than just automatically scream "I DON"T KNOW, FUCKING SHITTER DPS MAYBE!" That's just not the way to approach the situation which I would say the guild wiping over and over is well deserved. And that will happen, but it will be less apparent. Without a tracker, the game will have to be trivialized to simple tasks instead of an environment where you can keep track of many things at once while also allowing yourself to be mechanically proficient in your class and pumping out as much damage/healing/threat/mitigation as you can while also managing small things. Let's say in a raid there are 2 debuffs. If you mix the 2 debuffs, the player instantly dies, and everyone around them blows up as well, resulting in a wipe. Now, is it more reasonable for the 1 raid leader to spend the next 5 hours trying to watch 39 other player's debuffs the entire night while also trying to pull his own weight? Will he even be able to keep track of all that information? Will they even be able to tell it was the debuffs at all? What if the first debuff comes out in the first 10 seconds of the fight, but the next one comes out 2 minutes later? People will look at the combat log and go "huh, I got debuff#2 and then I just died, that debuff must be dispelled I guess!" and then it will keep happening again and again because they don't know the actual crux of the problem. Then all it will lead to is an argument between DPS players and Healers about who is in the wrong. It could take a lot of guilds an entire raid week or maybe multiple weeks, just to figure out this one mechanic that really doesn't have a lot of depth or even challenge to it. Leading to guilds disbanding, fighting, people leaving, etc. Sure that's more "challenging" (imo tedious, I find fights challenging because they actually push your mechanical skill and gear checks), but is it really more reasonable for people to be hard stuck on content because they have no idea how these 2 debuffs interact with each other and the onus of figuring it out is placed on 1 guild/raid leader who needs to babysit 39 other people? Or is it more reasonable to have a tracker and people to look at it after a wipe and go "Ok, so these 2 debuffs interact in such a way that wipes the raid, so healers be mindful of dispelling and dps be mindful of where you stand!" Trackers allow devs the ability to make extremely nuanced and in depth mechanics because they are designing around the idea that players will be able to sufficiently track things. This allows for amazingly tuned and engaging boss fights. It's why WoW is still an MMO titan to this day even though it really sucks, because it's raids are absolutely fantastic and each fight is crafted extremely well while being insanely challenging at the mythic level.
Sangramoire wrote: » Linstead wrote: » Sangramoire wrote: » Linstead wrote: » Ok, lets say you are trialing for a competitive raiding guild. Your DPS is low and is under the threshold requirement to join, so to raise it up you go through the combat tracker to figure out why people of your same class are out damaging you and how you could emulate their strategies or come up with your own strategy to increase your DPS to be above that threshold. Also many people have pointed out (me, noaani, pantease, and some others) that combat trackers can be a boon because it immediately lets a class leader or raid leader know what the problem is and how to remedy that problem. They can work together with their guildmates for the betterment of the group. People in WoW are disposable, because server transfers, teleporting, looking for group/raid, etc. In this game, there won't be any of that, so no one is going to just kick a low dps raider 3-4 hours into a raid night. They won't be able to replace that person in a timely manner, so the best thing to do would be to go over the combat tracker with them and figure out what went wrong and how everyone can be better. Without combat trackers, it's just hectic. "Why are we wiping?" "Idk! Maybe dps is low?" *proceeds to bash their heads in at the boss for another hour* "WHY ARE WE STILL WIPING?" "I DONT KNOW, FUCKING SHITTER DPS MAYBE!" *raid ends and everyone is mad* Then it turns out the reason people were wiping was because the healers weren't properly dispelling. No one knew because there were no trackers. Everyone is mad. And their lockout is ruined. Sure they could have spent the next week theorycrafting about what went wrong and coming up with "subjective" reasons why it happened until they managed to get it right, but combat trackers negates all that hassle, all the stress, and makes raiding more fun. You wouldn't have nights where people just give up because no one knows what is happening for hours. This exactly proves my point and is the reason why I personally don't want trackers in the game. They make the game easier and just hands you information instead of people actually putting in the work to analyze the situation. In that specific situation that you mention you merely need to approach systematically to find where your problem lies rather than just automatically scream "I DON"T KNOW, FUCKING SHITTER DPS MAYBE!" That's just not the way to approach the situation which I would say the guild wiping over and over is well deserved. And that will happen, but it will be less apparent. Without a tracker, the game will have to be trivialized to simple tasks instead of an environment where you can keep track of many things at once while also allowing yourself to be mechanically proficient in your class and pumping out as much damage/healing/threat/mitigation as you can while also managing small things. Let's say in a raid there are 2 debuffs. If you mix the 2 debuffs, the player instantly dies, and everyone around them blows up as well, resulting in a wipe. Now, is it more reasonable for the 1 raid leader to spend the next 5 hours trying to watch 39 other player's debuffs the entire night while also trying to pull his own weight? Will he even be able to keep track of all that information? Will they even be able to tell it was the debuffs at all? What if the first debuff comes out in the first 10 seconds of the fight, but the next one comes out 2 minutes later? People will look at the combat log and go "huh, I got debuff#2 and then I just died, that debuff must be dispelled I guess!" and then it will keep happening again and again because they don't know the actual crux of the problem. Then all it will lead to is an argument between DPS players and Healers about who is in the wrong. It could take a lot of guilds an entire raid week or maybe multiple weeks, just to figure out this one mechanic that really doesn't have a lot of depth or even challenge to it. Leading to guilds disbanding, fighting, people leaving, etc. Sure that's more "challenging" (imo tedious, I find fights challenging because they actually push your mechanical skill and gear checks), but is it really more reasonable for people to be hard stuck on content because they have no idea how these 2 debuffs interact with each other and the onus of figuring it out is placed on 1 guild/raid leader who needs to babysit 39 other people? Or is it more reasonable to have a tracker and people to look at it after a wipe and go "Ok, so these 2 debuffs interact in such a way that wipes the raid, so healers be mindful of dispelling and dps be mindful of where you stand!" Trackers allow devs the ability to make extremely nuanced and in depth mechanics because they are designing around the idea that players will be able to sufficiently track things. This allows for amazingly tuned and engaging boss fights. It's why WoW is still an MMO titan to this day even though it really sucks, because it's raids are absolutely fantastic and each fight is crafted extremely well while being insanely challenging at the mythic level. I see your point and maybe I would agree with it if it were like 15 years ago but now people have so much experience with many different types of mechanics that it would not take very long for someone out of the thousands of people that play the game to figure out how it works and it will be posted someone on the internet and everyone will follow. Years ago that wasn't the case as much as it is now.
Sangramoire wrote: » Linstead wrote: » Sangramoire wrote: » Linstead wrote: » Ok, lets say you are trialing for a competitive raiding guild. Your DPS is low and is under the threshold requirement to join, so to raise it up you go through the combat tracker to figure out why people of your same class are out damaging you and how you could emulate their strategies or come up with your own strategy to increase your DPS to be above that threshold. Also many people have pointed out (me, noaani, pantease, and some others) that combat trackers can be a boon because it immediately lets a class leader or raid leader know what the problem is and how to remedy that problem. They can work together with their guildmates for the betterment of the group. People in WoW are disposable, because server transfers, teleporting, looking for group/raid, etc. In this game, there won't be any of that, so no one is going to just kick a low dps raider 3-4 hours into a raid night. They won't be able to replace that person in a timely manner, so the best thing to do would be to go over the combat tracker with them and figure out what went wrong and how everyone can be better. Without combat trackers, it's just hectic. "Why are we wiping?" "Idk! Maybe dps is low?" *proceeds to bash their heads in at the boss for another hour* "WHY ARE WE STILL WIPING?" "I DONT KNOW, FUCKING SHITTER DPS MAYBE!" *raid ends and everyone is mad* Then it turns out the reason people were wiping was because the healers weren't properly dispelling. No one knew because there were no trackers. Everyone is mad. And their lockout is ruined. Sure they could have spent the next week theorycrafting about what went wrong and coming up with "subjective" reasons why it happened until they managed to get it right, but combat trackers negates all that hassle, all the stress, and makes raiding more fun. You wouldn't have nights where people just give up because no one knows what is happening for hours. This exactly proves my point and is the reason why I personally don't want trackers in the game. They make the game easier and just hands you information instead of people actually putting in the work to analyze the situation. In that specific situation that you mention you merely need to approach systematically to find where your problem lies rather than just automatically scream "I DON"T KNOW, FUCKING SHITTER DPS MAYBE!" That's just not the way to approach the situation which I would say the guild wiping over and over is well deserved. And that will happen, but it will be less apparent. Without a tracker, the game will have to be trivialized to simple tasks instead of an environment where you can keep track of many things at once while also allowing yourself to be mechanically proficient in your class and pumping out as much damage/healing/threat/mitigation as you can while also managing small things. Let's say in a raid there are 2 debuffs. If you mix the 2 debuffs, the player instantly dies, and everyone around them blows up as well, resulting in a wipe. Now, is it more reasonable for the 1 raid leader to spend the next 5 hours trying to watch 39 other player's debuffs the entire night while also trying to pull his own weight? Will he even be able to keep track of all that information? Will they even be able to tell it was the debuffs at all? What if the first debuff comes out in the first 10 seconds of the fight, but the next one comes out 2 minutes later? People will look at the combat log and go "huh, I got debuff#2 and then I just died, that debuff must be dispelled I guess!" and then it will keep happening again and again because they don't know the actual crux of the problem. Then all it will lead to is an argument between DPS players and Healers about who is in the wrong. It could take a lot of guilds an entire raid week or maybe multiple weeks, just to figure out this one mechanic that really doesn't have a lot of depth or even challenge to it. Leading to guilds disbanding, fighting, people leaving, etc. Sure that's more "challenging" (imo tedious, I find fights challenging because they actually push your mechanical skill and gear checks), but is it really more reasonable for people to be hard stuck on content because they have no idea how these 2 debuffs interact with each other and the onus of figuring it out is placed on 1 guild/raid leader who needs to babysit 39 other people? Or is it more reasonable to have a tracker and people to look at it after a wipe and go "Ok, so these 2 debuffs interact in such a way that wipes the raid, so healers be mindful of dispelling and dps be mindful of where you stand!" Trackers allow devs the ability to make extremely nuanced and in depth mechanics because they are designing around the idea that players will be able to sufficiently track things. This allows for amazingly tuned and engaging boss fights. It's why WoW is still an MMO titan to this day even though it really sucks, because it's raids are absolutely fantastic and each fight is crafted extremely well while being insanely challenging at the mythic level. If you prefer those types of raids and those mechanics and that sort of challenge where the challenge lies in how much DPS you can do because of your gear and how min/maxed your build is then sure but I prefer something that's more difficult because of boss and raid mechanics.
Linstead wrote: » And I agree to an extent. It just seems pretty silly to claim that "trackers makes the game too easy" when WoW not only has trackers but a plethora of other addons that play the game for people and they have the hardest content in all of MMOs. Sure Method clears content in a week, but they also play 20 hours a day, spend 10k real life dollars to buy gold to buy gear, have every class at max level to swap to FOTM classes/specs, and split raids a week before to get the best possible advantage they can get. And they still have bosses that take over hundreds of attempts (most recent example I can think of is Mythic Kil'jaeden which took over 19 days of attempts, was killed on the 654th attempt 3 weeks after release). You can't call that easy and most guilds never even finished the raid on mythic difficulty. My guild got cutting edge 2 weeks before the new raid tier was about to come out (june 27th mythic released, got the kill november 14th, almost 5 months, and my guild was considered one of the better guilds at the time). So really, if ashes decides to make content as hard as WoW's (which I'm not advocating they do and I highly doubt they will) then not having meters will mean basically no one will clear content at all. Mythic KJ cutting edge was only accomplished by 1.4% of the entire playerbase, with combat trackers, with addons that tell you mechanics, with outside sources of information, and he was nerfed TWICE during that time.
Sangramoire wrote: » Linstead wrote: » And I agree to an extent. It just seems pretty silly to claim that "trackers makes the game too easy" when WoW not only has trackers but a plethora of other addons that play the game for people and they have the hardest content in all of MMOs. Sure Method clears content in a week, but they also play 20 hours a day, spend 10k real life dollars to buy gold to buy gear, have every class at max level to swap to FOTM classes/specs, and split raids a week before to get the best possible advantage they can get. And they still have bosses that take over hundreds of attempts (most recent example I can think of is Mythic Kil'jaeden which took over 19 days of attempts, was killed on the 654th attempt 3 weeks after release). You can't call that easy and most guilds never even finished the raid on mythic difficulty. My guild got cutting edge 2 weeks before the new raid tier was about to come out (june 27th mythic released, got the kill november 14th, almost 5 months, and my guild was considered one of the better guilds at the time). So really, if ashes decides to make content as hard as WoW's (which I'm not advocating they do and I highly doubt they will) then not having meters will mean basically no one will clear content at all. Mythic KJ cutting edge was only accomplished by 1.4% of the entire playerbase, with combat trackers, with addons that tell you mechanics, with outside sources of information, and he was nerfed TWICE during that time. My personal main concern is it will make content easier and also it gets rid of the possibility for other social interactions which is part of an MMO imo. Some people don't really care about those other aspects of an MMO and they just want the raids and pve and could care less about it so why not just go to something like WoW? If WoW does have all those things then those people will keep playing that but AoC is not trying to become WoW it's clearly being designed different with more player interaction in mind. AoC would just be balanced to be just as hard as those mythic+ raids but without the need for those addons. Also there's no point in having the meters from the beginning of the game since there's no content to test if they would even be needed for those that really claim that they do.
Neurath wrote: » If there are multiple ways to maximise damage (which I suspect), then a DPS Meter isn't required. You once said 'How do you know what's the best?' 'The best can be best until a DPS Meter shows the best'. So, my reasons still stands, because someone has to build the builds in the first place, every build is viable, just because it took you and others to locate 'The Best' from a DPS Meter doesn't mean other theory crafters haven't already learnt of 'The Best'. There is no risk/reward when a DPS Meter eradicates the risks, there would only be rewards.
Neurath wrote: » Ashes will be a competitive game. I do not appreciate subversion and tricks to ensure dominance. I'd rather carve dominance through actions. It is all well and good to use DPS Meters when people only compete for gear, for fast kills, for world firsts. When the focus is PvE it is all well and good. When the PvE is the foundations of PvX then there should be no advantages from third party processes.
Neurath wrote: » What happens is Steven says something, then all the opposition twist the information and tarnish the information. Then we who support Steven explain why we also do not want DPS Meters, then the people who want DPS Meters twist the information again, saying we don't give good enough reasons and refer back to Steven's reason. Have no fear, the cycle is a long one which you can clearly see by the size of this thread.
Neurath wrote: » People have a right to play how they want to play
Neurath wrote: » I should be shocked you require tools for the hardest content, but, I'm not.
Neurath wrote: » e stated before, IS should implement a system so we can all use the system. So far, from the DPS Meter crowd all I've seen is requests which would see a select group of people having the tools while the rest do not.
nelsonrebel wrote: » But any mandatory group forced meters in any actual content will only create toxicity.
nelsonrebel wrote: » Meters serve one purpose. To exclude others based on marginal percentage differences. That is it.
nelsonrebel wrote: » Im not excluding anything from you other than you trying to peep on what I'm doing. Mind your gear and your own damage *shrugs*
nelsonrebel wrote: » Its quite literally win/win. Meters have no real function to healthily building an mmo communities pve groups. It serves only epeen folks and elitists trying to use the easiest method of toxicity
