What could be the severity of PvPing in dungeons and how can you essentially stop PvP guilds?

Hi, I'm a avid MMO player who looks at PVP with a disdain from a new players perspective as well as someone who works a 9-5 and can't no life MMO's like I could 10 years ago.
I'm excited about Ashes but I see the incentive to PVP in most cases but dungeons to me seem like the wrong place to have a "battleground", so my question mainly revolves around PVP guilds running dungeons and raids to get either their own characters geared or gear their new guildies.

Gear in the dungeons could have a chase piece but its in a lower leveled dungeon so you could potentially see higher leveled players in there
The example I have is a lower level but on-par well geared group attempts the dungeon ,they get to the boss and start the encounter damaging it to 75% total Hp left but another either more equipped or higher leveled groups comes in wipes the previous group and kills the boss. (lets say the level discrepancy is 5 levels)
Now the corruption system doesn't specify the amount of corruption or how the score works, it only generalizes the system so far.
You can say its not worth but a guild with high leveled players in the end game could put on moderate gear and pk clear a dungeon to allow their lowered leveled players a chance to get gear.
It seems like the system should stop most people BUT this type of behavior will be common somewhere in the game if a PVP guild wants to enact sieges every week with all their guild members they will be given an incentive to clear competition out of dungeons for their lowered level guild member to get their specified chase pieces.

Again this is just a thought but if I ,a mainly casual PVE player can think of it, then most PVP players will at least entertain the thought.

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Jexz

@Grails that is not a PvP issue and yes I feel you that is griefing. Everyone will have to put up with that kind of griefing because a non combatant doesn't need to go combatant on a corrupted player.

The dude doesn't even have to out level you or out gear you he only has to do 40% of the damage to make your life miserable. Even if you can kill him if he doesn't flag he can now grief the poop out of you. Against this sort of toxic player there is nothing you can do but move somewhere else.

The only solution I see is if you want to kill any player you have to be a combatant . It shouldn't matter if you are fighting a corrupted player or not. So at least in this situation the more powerful player can come out on top.

I Know that is not the answer you want to hear.

But as Niraada said
Protect yourself and adapt, or don't. Choose.

This is an adapt situation for PvP'rs and PvE'rs where unfortunately the Griefer wins.

Niraada

Jexz wrote: »

@Grails that is not a PvP issue and yes I feel you that is griefing. Everyone will have to put up with that kind of griefing because a non combatant doesn't need to go combatant on a corrupted player.

The dude doesn't even have to out level you or out gear you he only has to do 40% of the damage to make your life miserable. Even if you can kill him if he doesn't flag he can now grief the poop out of you. Against this sort of player there is nothing you can do but move somewhere else.

Untrue! You can choose to kill them.

Killing a single equal-or-higher levelled NC on it's own should not make you corrupted, but simply raise your corruption level.

Incidentally, gaining XP from killing mobs lowers your corruption level. Just kill them and move on with your day.

Grails

@Niraada I don't expect that I can't hurt them at all, I just expect that if I'm 30 and he's 50, and Steven has said that levels will be a good chunk of your power, that I stand 0 chance of killing a level 50 player. And if I attack with less than a group or he has 1 equally powerful friend to heal him, now they have no punishment to kill me for daring use moves on them.

Niraada

@Grails You're equating not liking your options to not having them.

If you can't accept that someone stronger than you can (and at some point likely will) come along and impact your experience, forcing you to make some tough choices, then PvX probably isn't something that resonates with you.

Jexz

@Niraada you are right I am making assumptions that he can get back to you before you are able to work off your corruption.

@grails simply move somewhere else or ask for an invite

Niraada

@Grails The solution you're asking for has already been given to you: Weigh your options, make a decision, live with the consequences.

This isn't a game where you will be rewarded no matter what choice you make. This isn't a game where you're going to be kept safe while letting you feel like you're winning. I suggest looking at the early history of Ultima Online, or Lineage 2 that Steven loves to reference.

People are going to come along and try to ruin your day, or just do something that you don't like. The interesting bit is how you choose to handle that. Player conflict is integral to this game. No one else is going to step in and say "Hey, that's not fair."

How you choose to handle your business is on you. Own it.

awq

Grails wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

Here is the thing, you can't look at the corruption system and search for problems without factoring in the other in-game system that are exactly designed to prevent that.

On the same note, just taking a system (corruption), that worked greatly in Lineage 2, without considering the systems around it will not work. I trust Intrepid enough to believe they understand that.

Grails wrote: »

If one of the big guilds of the server decide dungeon X that has dragon mob Y in it is worth farming all the time for certain potion mats or something, even when they vastly out level the mobs, and I go in with my party of guildmates to try to get some levels/rewards. What stops the high level people from just taking everything? I have no pack of people to call on to help. They don't have to kill me to ruin the experience, they can just follow us and kill everything we tag. If they can kill a mob easily, while we meet the level requirements and take 30 seconds to kill a mob, the tagging doesn't help us, they'll do a large % of the damage quickly and take the drop.

Lineage 2, who inspired the corruption system dealt with this pretty efficiently. They drastically decreased the Loot and Experience players get from Content that is below/above them. You'd only get 100% of the loot if the content was within +4/-4 (?) Levels of your Character. You'd also get diminishing returns on exp depending on the Level difference. (Bosses were handled differently)

This pretty much invalidated the problem of high levels farming low level areas or boosting some of their guild mates.

Grails wrote: »

Then, what's to stop them from taking every boss kill? Just easily get to and sit in the boss area. We worked our butts off to get to the boss, we pull, they can then kick our assess while the boss also beats us up, then they take the kill while we rez or whatever, or just out dps us and take the boss drop too. There's no risk vs reward for them or us, we have no recourse to stop them they out gear and out level us, they have nothing to lose until corruption really kicks in. They can do it several times, or switch out guildies while the others farm mobs to reduce corruption, and repeat.

Also, what's the respawn times for bosses going to be like? Will the boss even be there when we finally make it? If it's a short timer and the dungeon is huge, like we've seen, people will just sit in the boss room and kill it over and over, but if it's long respawn, we'll get there and it will be dead already, and either we wait and many groups will probably pile up waiting and fight forever to get it, or we just don't get to kill it ever.

Judging based on the L2 inspiration once more, then the Respawn timer for raid size bosses should fall between 1 and 12 hours. Which extend up 7+ days for grand bosses. It's probably not gonna be much different here. Group sized "mini"-bosses should fall into the 30min - 4 hour range. This pretty much invalidates the camping of these raid sized bosses.

Why do you think you have the right to get the loot drop over them? Killing you would indeed by a risk v. reward system for them, as corruption is nothing to take lightly. Outperforming you within the boss fight itself? Not so much, but then again, I don't see any reason why you'd feel entitled to get the loot from this boss. It's not yours, get that out of your head, its a public boss, ready to be taken by anybody who tries. Either size up to take it for yourself or buy the materials dropping from the boss off the market.

It clearly is a highly contested spawn you are talking about, otherwise the large guilds wouldn't bother farming it. I can't quite put my finger on something... The though of feeling entitled to the highly contested bosses and spawns, while not putting in the effort to get them, feels very weird to me. I'm not quite sure where this sense of entitlement comes from, I'd guess WoW as that game handed everything on a silver platter to its player base. What it comes down to: People that will put more effort into the game will be rewarded for it.

A stronger guild (pvp or not) out-performing you on a boss to secure the loot isn't connected to the PvP system either. That's a strawman at best.

I'm not saying I'm entitled to anything, I'm asking how the systems work. It doesn't have to be crazy lucrative for people to say, "har har, let's go stop people from getting boss kills." In fact there is no reward in most games for killing lowbies over and over, but people love doing it. Intrepid don't want people to ruin other players experience with the game and kill lowbies over and over. I'm saying they don't have to kill you to ruin it. You can work your way through a difficult-for-your-level dungeon and then players you have no chance of beating can kill the boss just so you can't. I want to be able to enjoy the game and test my group against bosses, and be rewarded for it. It's not entitled, we would earn stuff by defeating the boss. They are taking away your boss fight and your possible loot. Jerks might not do it super often, because like you said they won't get much, but it would only have to happen to someone a couple times before a player says, fuck this game, I don't ever get anything cool.

I posted that comment you quoted as its own post cause this thread was in the wrong place. Other people helped me see the dungeon is more like a higher level/group zone with better drops, I was more thinking about it as a path to a boss, where the monsters in the way don't mean much. However I still don't really know how the game stops jerks from ruining people's experience in this way, getting creative with the tagging and/or corruption system.

If you were 8 lvls above a raid boss in lineage 2 you got raid cursed if you touched the boss, which petrified you for 5 minutes. So running in and stealing lowbie bosses weren't really a thing.
Pking the players doing a lowbie boss would be insanity, for griefing purposes sure, if you run around scouting lowbie areas for someone to grief, only to have to deal with that karma without any high level mobs nearby.
I assume that would be hard without the many teleport options L2 had to get to some "safe" high level zone to grind that corruption away for a while.
This makes me slightly curious as to how the teleport to a family member will work though, might be restricted for corrupted players and/or during combat (dealt/taken damage in the last ~30 seconds?).

Whiskiz

A casual, pve player wanting to warp the game to suit them.

You don't see that every day.

Moving on.

Kneczhevo

Everyone acts like they will be spending all their game time leveling. Leveling will be easy, augments will be tough and those are going to be endgame content. So, don't worry about your leveling boss being KSed, chances are no one will care, while you are leveling.

Warth

Grails wrote: »

I'm not saying I'm entitled to anything, I'm asking how the systems work. It doesn't have to be crazy lucrative for people to say, "har har, let's go stop people from getting boss kills." In fact there is no reward in most games for killing lowbies over and over, but people love doing it. Intrepid don't want people to ruin other players experience with the game and kill lowbies over and over. I'm saying they don't have to kill you to ruin it. You can work your way through a difficult-for-your-level dungeon and then players you have no chance of beating can kill the boss just so you can't. I want to be able to enjoy the game and test my group against bosses, and be rewarded for it. It's not entitled, we would earn stuff by defeating the boss. They are taking away your boss fight and your possible loot. Jerks might not do it super often, because like you said they won't get much, but it would only have to happen to someone a couple times before a player says, fuck this game, I don't ever get anything cool. @Warth

I posted that comment you quoted as its own post cause this thread was in the wrong place. Other people helped me see the dungeon is more like a higher level/group zone with better drops, I was more thinking about it as a path to a boss, where the monsters in the way don't mean much. However I still don't really know how the game stops jerks from ruining people's experience in this way, getting creative with the tagging and/or corruption system.

@Grails
Purely on the problem of high level players stealing the boss kills from lower leveled players:
(even though that was not what the original post was about -> the original post was using strawmens and fearmongering (based on uninformed opinions) to change game system that might be unpleasant for the OP)

About the boss stealing:
L2 had a system in place for that as well. Whenever a higher level player attacked a raidboss, that was several bosses below him, he would in turn get raid cursed. This raid curse essentially prevented you from doing anything for the next 2 (or 5?) minutes. This way, the moment a high level attacked the boss they'd essentially turn to stone, which was unpurgable.
https://l2db.info/high-five/skills/4515

Which solves the problem in your example. If it's just a stronger guild on the same level... then you will be shit out of luck. However, that's not griefing, that's the boss going to the guild/players that deserve it more.

Intrepid hasn't mentioned anything similar to a raid curse yet. However, as i have mentioned before, I'll trust them to understand that just picking a system and implementing it into your game without taking a look at the surrounding systems is not a good idea. I'd assume that they will consider something like the L2 system, if your issue becomes a problem.

Beekeeper

"Raid cursed" and loot reduction for monsters under your level smells like gap stopper solutions. Why is a more skilled Fighter getting less pelt than a beginner? Why do raid bosses all have this strange divine protection that doesn't affect weaker opponents? Even if it stopped some bad behaviour, it feels bad to rely on such gamey systems.

@Grails The main thing I can tell you is that bosses in particular are not necessary for progression. The ones that are, are instanced, so no griefing can take place.
Otherwise, yes, asking for help or going somewhere else may be your only realistic options. The system does want you to seek out this help from other players and reward you for building a network of friends and guildmates to call on for exactly these kinds of situations.

Keep in mind that, with how the world is structured, low level players and high level players will be in constant contact. Higher rank nodes offer options to the full range of players, so it will be a lot less likely for a bunch of lowbies to be isolated in one part of the world, where one single max level griefer can unbalance the entire region. If things look tough, look for the closest big city and try to talk to some people, you'll probably find someone who will help (at least for a favour). I would.

Warth

"Raid cursed" and loot reduction for monsters under your level smells like gap stopper solutions. Why is a more skilled Fighter getting less pelt than a beginner? Why do raid bosses all have this strange divine protection that doesn't affect weaker opponents? Even if it stopped some bad behaviour, it feels bad to rely on such gamey systems.

Its a solution that works gameplay wise. Which is a primary requirement for the game. The "logic" behind it, is
tertiary at best in terms of importance.

Logic and realism can hardly be an argument in a game like this, as most aspects of the game will have logical flaws.

Explain it how ever you want. It could be one of the old corrupted gods protecting his disciples from the most powerful adventurers through a blessing. That's actually how L2 explained it lore-wise:
"The curse of the Raid Boss guardian spirit temporarily petrifies the target, immobilizing it like a stone. "

Beekeeper

Of course gameplay needs to take priority, but raid curse is so blatant and dull that I would never put it into a game when I have time to think of a different system.

Warth

Beekeeper wrote: »

Of course gameplay needs to take priority, but raid curse is so blatant and dull that I would never put it into a game when I have time to think of a different system.

so they get a dull but working solution or a more interesting which works as well.
Either way, the fear of high level raid groups stealing away all the low level bosses is unwarranted.

Stresa

i see his point.. whats to stop a guild from holding a place hostage.. its happened in other games in the past, if the corruption system isn't enough then there will be easy ways to get around it

ShroudedFox

I feel like this situation is very niche, like honestly when I played MMOs the amount of griefers I've encountered has been quite low. The way your presenting this problem is like your always going to come into contact with them. I'd say that dungeons are going to be contested, and that high lvl guilds and node citizens will have an incentive to prevent griefing from happening to defend local economy and citizen strength. If your nodes dungeon is regularly being griefed people will just move their citizenship to another area..

Warth

Stresa wrote: »

i see his point.. whats to stop a guild from holding a place hostage.. its happened in other games in the past, if the corruption system isn't enough then there will be easy ways to get around it

If the corruption system isn't enough deterrent then you should calibrate to the point where it is.
Convoluting the game with badly working systems instead of growing one to the point where it does what it should be supposed to be doing doesn't improve the situation. On the contrary, it creates more room for abuse.

Also, if you had ever played Lineage 2, you'd know that the corruption (karma) system in itself worked just fine, apart from a few minor problems. It did work so well, that people didn't flag and kill you for stealing their spawn, they instead tried to grief you for tagging mechanics and poking you to mid-low health repeatedly, withhout ever going for the kill.

Also, holding a place hostage wasn't really a thing that was prevented through the Karma system. As people declared guild wars on the players's guild, who dared venture into their farming grounds. Which is exactly the type of meaningful pvp interactions Intrepid is looking for.

You don't like a guild permanently occupying a farming spot? Go band together with other guilds and kick them out by force.

Disliking an integral system of the game's design is okay. That doesn't mean that making up artificial problems in an attempt to stir up shit is the right way to go about them.

Ashes of Creation is supposed to be a PvX system at its core. The entire game is designed around that principle. If you can't stand the notion of any PvP befalling you within the game, then it might just not be the game for you.

If you can't stand the notion of another player doing something you don't like, then true PvX MMORPGs might just not be the type of game for you. Good thing, that there are a lot of abominations like WoW, that protect you from ever having to deal with that.

Posts like these always start through "casual PvE players", "players that look at pvp with disdain" and players that can't cope with something going against them through the will of another player. Changing the calibration of the system to create a space of different kinds of players is fine. Trying to overthrow the fundamental principles behind the game because you don't like them is not.

mcstackerson

I don't think this has been posted here but think it's very relevant. Here is a quote from the lead designer on dungeons:
Half the problem won't just be solving the dungeon, it will be solving other players too.
You can find this and the source on the dungeon section of the wiki

So competing over areas in a dungeon is an intended part of the game.

I think something that needs to be mentioned with this is the number of different progression paths and things they intend to allow you to do in the game. I like to bring this up to make sure people are aware that they shouldn't be stuck in a position where there is nothing they can do because they don't want to compete.

Not only do you not need to grind a spot to get loot from it because gear doesn't bind and you can buy it on the market but there are also other forms of progression besides your adventure class level and gear. You can level your religion, social organizations, nodes, crafting, as well as others that will probably come down the future. We haven't heard anything in a while but there was mention of some kind of "seaman" class that would allow you to get better at boating.

The map will also be huge and while it's hard to say for certain atm, there should be less popular, less contested areas around the map for you to find and farm, hopefully with its own benefits. With the cert system that was recently announced, it will at least be profitable.

Grails

Niraada wrote: »

@Grails The solution you're asking for has already been given to you: Weigh your options, make a decision, live with the consequences.

This isn't a game where you will be rewarded no matter what choice you make. This isn't a game where you're going to be kept safe while letting you feel like you're winning. I suggest looking at the early history of Ultima Online, or Lineage 2 that Steven loves to reference.

People are going to come along and try to ruin your day, or just do something that you don't like. The interesting bit is how you choose to handle that. Player conflict is integral to this game. No one else is going to step in and say "Hey, that's not fair."

How you choose to handle your business is on you. Own it.

Except, Intrepid is stepping in and saying this is not fair. When a more powerful player is killing low level players. What I've said like 5 times and not been addressed, when they can lord their power over you WITHOUT killing you, you as a low level player are put into stasis on the game, LIKE BEING KILLED. You are in the same situation as if they are killing you, with the exact same options to get out of it. So why is it ok for that to happen, but not ok to kill you outright! At least if they kill you, you're dead once, you respawn somewhere they don't know, and can't necessarily keep killing you.

Niraada

@Grails even then, you can still choose to leave or fight back. Not liking an option doesn't invalidate it.

You're asking the same question again and again, hoping for what? A mechanic to protect you from the conflict that is what drives the game?

If it's a guild, declare a guild war and you can attack them corruption free. Simple.
If it's not a guild, and they're not attacking you, just move on or attack them. Also pretty simple. If they fight back, they flag and then you can run at them until one of you blinks.

Again. Not liking your options doesn't mean they don't exist.

If you're not prepared to figure out and personally deal with conflicts with other players, conflicts which will be inherently unfair in many possible ways, then why play a game based around it?

Maybe I and everyone else has been misreading what you're asking, but the only problem I can see in there is "They're stronger than me so I can't do anything." which is patently untrue.

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