DPS Meter Megathread

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Mavick

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

Oh you mean like how it leads to player toxicity. Lessens the games social ability by a pretty large margin. Unfairly forces people to participate in it whether they want to or not. Will be used to force how loot is distributed. Is objectively useless to the design of the game. Assumes the majority of the playerbase is stupid and can't think for themselves. Assumes that the playerbase are more casual for some reason.

I don't get this argument. Ingame tools don't "make" people toxic, that toxicity is already there. The simple fact they express that around what a tool says doesn't make the tool itself at fault. If they are a toxic individual they will most likely find other means of expressing it anyway.

Also, while toxic interactions may occur around that, very positive ones also happen, and it seems like you deliberately ignore this fact. I've personally spent hours just chatting with people on Discord or other means going over fight data. Having these tools absolutely does not remove "social interaction" and every time you repeat that refrain it really puzzles me.

Kohl

mavick wrote: »

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

Oh you mean like how it leads to player toxicity. Lessens the games social ability by a pretty large margin. Unfairly forces people to participate in it whether they want to or not. Will be used to force how loot is distributed. Is objectively useless to the design of the game. Assumes the majority of the playerbase is stupid and can't think for themselves. Assumes that the playerbase are more casual for some reason.

I don't get this argument. Ingame tools don't "make" people toxic, that toxicity is already there. The simple fact they express that around what a tool says doesn't make the tool itself at fault. If they are a toxic individual they will most likely find other means of expressing it anyway.

Also, while toxic interactions may occur around that, very positive ones also happen, and it seems like you deliberately ignore this fact. I've personally spent hours just chatting with people on Discord or other means going over fight data. Having these tools absolutely does not remove "social interaction" and every time you repeat that refrain it really puzzles me.

Ask them to define "Social Interaction" and they'll realize that when they mention that in the same sentence as damage meters is plain ridiculous.

Demonhunter1

Yes the majority of players are casual because there not rich people or young who stay at their parents that stay home or retired and create a hardcore guild with like minded people and want to min/max their builds and use DPS meters which is fine. But to say your the only one's that exist in an mmorpg is non-sense.

Reason why casuals exist because over the years and overtime they get the same results as hardcores do, only difference is casuals take more time to reach that status of acquiring elite builds. Also, casuals dont play 8 hours a day. They come from work and play a few hours maybe. But acquiring good builds takes more time simply because they resort to crafting instead of running dungeons all day. And if they do run dungeons, they dont have the stress of a hardcore leader that obliges high dps meter results.

Hardcore players just want shortcuts by maximizing their time playing mmorpg's, so they resort to like minded people who will comply with their demands by using dps meters and maximizing their performance. But even hardcores lose sometimes and have to start over. No one is perfect ...

Mavick

Neurath wrote: »

You know, before WoW, theory crafters were the go to people. After WoW, third party software became the go to. To my knowledge, only those players who want public acclaim and fame have been promoted.

Joanna did the fastest level on a Hunter in Vanilla.
JokerD did the fastest level on a Mage in Classic.

I know these people because these people want to be known. Forcing someone to be known is bad for the forums. In WoW Forums people aren't even taken seriously if they haven't completed certain content, or don't have high enough Honour.

This is the toxicity Steven wants to avoid. I do not think it wise to force players to reveal what a player is not comfortable to reveal.

Theorycrafters are still the go to people, WoW never changed that. The only thing that changed was general knowledge improved and the tools vastly improved. There's many well-known theorycrafters who participate in multiple class discords and people that assist them with running simulations and gathering data to put out guides.

What you're talking about is the very sloppy way it was done in early wow, where because most of the population was largely ignorant on the game you had a few people who were renowned for doing things like you mentioned or just simply being vocal, personable and engaging with the community. I watched as time went by and those types of people were replaced by people with more analytical and mathematical skills because that is the root of actual theorycrafting, not feelings or popularity.

Nykz

I can definitely see Stevens point on the DPS meter but I feel like a lot of Players are driven to be the highest on the board and feel spurred to the grind to get better and better, including myself.
I feel like the "reward" of seeing yourself on the top makes the grind feel worth it and introduces a very addictive cycle a lot of players are craving for.

Toxicity will be there, yes If you're on the bottom of the meter you might get flamed but on the other hand I believe a lot of players could prove themselves which could properly encourage teamwork, in sense of for example loot sharing which would otherwise not appear. People may hold the good loot back for people they know are good. New guild members could have a hard time because of trust issues and thoughts like "is this new member xxx worth this rare and expensive item?".

Nonetheless I believe you guys are gonna work out a good solution and I appreciate all the work you guys put in!

Songcaller

One doesn't pull theories from thin air, one uses the game. It is impossible to theory craft right now though I have done a little. We do not know enough and the live game is ages away.

It has nothing to do with popularity. It has everything to do with social interaction. When you outperform someone in duels, same class against same class, then you are often asked how it has happened.

There are two ways to theory craft, the PvE Method which in older PvP Titles meant little, and then there is the PvP Method. Often times these would overlap unless the game differentiates between PvP Armour and PvE Armour.

It is simple to theory craft in most vertical MMOs because BiS is very narrow. It is not so easy in horizontal progression because BiS is much broader.

Unfortunately, since WoWs success most MMOs have been vertical progression.

Euphorrix

I see both sides to this, not only as remembering myself being a new player, but also now being a Guild Leader. I strongly believe that once the community gets complacent with 'this is how the game is played' that a public DPS meter would lead to elite gamers and a toxic environment, and for that, am against the idea that everyone can see your DPS. To further this idea, why don't people obsess over how many resources you can mine an hour? -It's not important

I also remember playing Diablo 2 and not worrying about DPS, but being able to feel out how you were doing. Were you kicking butt, or getting your butt kicked?
Which comes back to this threads point other people have pointed out: Is it a skill issue? And even if it is, I bet there will be great people out there to help, and many guides to aid others with their class too!
(no matter how complex the game becomes, there will always be those that find a META)

I far too remember the days of being new to a game (especially well after launch) and being ridiculed for not knowing how to play due to 'low dps' - it's demoralizing and ruins the fun of what a game is. I do not see that being the case with how this community is, so I believe a public DPS meter is not needed. If people are so worried about DPS, cause they are that good, well buttercup it's time to watch to see what everyone is doing, especially if you are that concerned.

I do believe that you should have an optional, personal one that only you can see, and not allowing the use of addons will further this privacy. As a person who likes to Min-Max, is now a Guild Leader, and has the drive to help others learn, I can also see the use (and want) of a personal, private meter.

I will stand with Intrepid on which ever direction they go.

My closing thoughts:
Public DPS Meter: Bad / Private DPS Meter: Good / No DPS Meter: Ok

Noaani

@nelsonrebel

Not that I expect a reply, you seem more interested in throwing your pre-concieved and ill-informed opinion on combat trackers around without actually engaging in proper discussion, but I'll continue to attempt as much.

nelsonrebel wrote: »

But how will 3rd party play into it with no addons for AoC?

There are already three combat trackers in development for Ashes, two of which I am personally following (the third I am not, due to not agreeing with the methodolgy used).

nelsonrebel wrote: »

And higher end gaming guilds can go do that in their small circles without imposing in game demands on everyone. They want to
go the extra mile in damage, they can do that on their time.

The barrier of entry in the game world wont exist for the vast majority of players and get the enjoyment of being interactive with the majority with no barriers.

This is the exact result that my suggestion of putting combat trackers in as a guild perk would result in.

Higher end guilds would use them, other guilds wouldn't. I'm not sure why you consider this to be ok but not my suggestion.

nelsonrebel wrote: »

Thats only going to be for the people actively seaking the meters and actively willingly going to download the software and trust that its correct all to appease the one person/group wanting it.

The majority of players wont do that. Because of the legwork required and the more fun interactions between players.

History would suggest that over time, more and more people will make use of a combat tracker if it is available for the game.

Since there is a damn good chance that all that is needed for a combat tracker in Ashes is some freely available commercial software, and an existing and well known combat tracker with a plug in, the barrier to entry isn't that high when considering people will be playing Ashes for multiple years.

nelsonrebel wrote: »

Dps meters are not a game rank system, its an instanced measure of a specifc encounter in a pve area against one of many bosses to create standards of dps to exclude others regardless of everything else and have a forced measuring with or without player consent

Once again, this is blatantly false.

In order to say this is what a combat tracker is, you are saying these things are inherent to combat trackers. If these things were inherent to combat trackers, they would happen in any game that has combat trackers.

Literally any player that has played a game with combat trackers that is not WoW, knows without even thinking about it that the issues in WoW are not present in other games.

As such, you simply can not make blanket statements like the above in regards to combat trackers in all games.

This is simply a case of your complete and obvious inexperience in MMO's coming through and coloring your opinion on the topic.

Noaani

@Beekeeper

Beekeeper wrote: »

If some athletes use doping, I don't think that really affects the sport in general, so it's definitely their personal choice. Doping is super useful when trying to really push for the best possible result, so it should be allowed and endorsed.

/s

This is not really an appropriate analogy.

The thing with doping is - all sports are against it. In order for that to be a valid analogy, all MMO's would have to be against combat trackers.

Most are not, most are fine with it.

A better analogy would be that a combat tracker is akin to recruiting a member to your team in a league with a salary cap, but providing that player with an advertising deal on the side. Some sports are fine with this, some sports have no salery cap, some sports say you shouldn't but turn a blind eye in practise, and a very few sports don't like it, attempt to prevent it, but soon realize that it is not withing their scope to be able to actually do so.

While not a perfect analogy, it is far, FAR better han doping.

Noaani

@Neurath

Neurath wrote: »

It must be a sad life when you need charts and scores to feel better. Back in the day, a simple Raid Kill was a big enough buzz, we needn't need to debrief afterwards. We improved with time regardless.

See, this is an issue I have.

Combat trackers are not about "feeling better", they are about playing better.

"feelings" have literally nothing at all to do with them, and as soon as the discussion turns to peoples feelings, the discussion has - by necessity - turned away from combat trackers and on to something else.

If I have a combat tracker and it says you are doing twice the damage I am, even if we are the same class, I will only feel bad about that if you make me feel bad about it. At this point, the issue is with you, not with the combat tracker.

On the other hand, if you do not make me feel bad about it, then why would I feel anything other than "oh look, I just found some room to improve!".

Combat trackers do literally nothing other than provide people with objective data. When talking about other peoples feelings, what people do with that data is the same as what they would do without that data. People that are going to try to hurt someones feelings will try to do that with or without that data, and will be exactly as effective at it either way - because what hurts peoples feelings is the fact that someone actually tried to hurt their feelings, more than the thing they actually did.

Noaani

@valerian

valerian wrote: »

Like I said earlier, hardcore guilds will use DPS meters and hopefully realize that their going to be the minority guilds. Most MMORPG players these days are casual that don't need to cater to DPS meters to have a healthy community of players in their guilds that can accomplish the same things as hardcore do.

Hardcore players with DPS meters have to realize that they are in their own little world and hopefully can sustain their members without anyone rage quitting. I'm talking about in the long run, I would assume that casual guilds have a longer longevity of a healthy community.

One of the things that I will be doing for Ashes is reading many of the guilds requirements for membership, and compare how many of those guilds require a hardcore raiding parties with DPS meters for advancements in comparison to other guilds who don't have any. Also, how many of those guilds are going to be honest about it and not throw a curve ball for a new recruit by saying we will be expecting you to increase your DPS in raids or else you won't be welcomed anymore.

People would be surprised to find out that the majority dislike DPS meters.

This is why I have been suggesting for well over a year now that the best thing any MMO can do is implement combat trackers directly in to the games client, but make it an optional guild perk that only works on members of the guild.

This means the people that are going to have one anyway will have one, and the people that don't care will be able to not even think about them.

Where this has the advantage over leaving it up to third parties is that a third party combat tracker is going to be able to track the combat of your group, meaning pick up groups in Ashes will be able to be tracked. If the combat tracker is built in to the games client, they can prevent things like this with a fair amount of ease.

Linstead

Euphorrix wrote: »

To further this idea, why don't people obsess over how many resources you can mine an hour? -It's not important

If resources mined per hour were a direct influence over boss kills (and not indirect) and the bosses wouldn't die if you didn't mine enough resources, then you could be damn sure that people would be tracking it.

Resources mined per hour aren't measured because it's either
A ) A personal goal for someone to make some gold for themselves
B ) It doesn't have any direct negative influence if you don't manage to mine enough in a given amount of time
C ) Not needed for much of anything outside of specific crafting recipes
Or D ) All of the above

DPS/HPS/TPS is measured, because it directly influences and determines the biggest and hardest content in any given MMO. It's also the "most important" content for a wide margin of MMO players. So it's no surprise that people want to be the best, that people want to only play with the best, and that people want to track their and others performances to reach their goals and be competitive. Not everyone wants to do this, but with the many suggestions that have been offered, not everyone will need to.

With 3rd party trackers, even if you don't want to be tracked you inevitably will be, because Pug leaders and Guild leaders might use them, even if they advertise that they don't allow them. With an in game system that is opted into/out of by guilds, Pugs will never be able to use them, and Guild leaders have to be entirely transparent with whether they want to use them or not, and can't turn them on secretly for themselves mid way through a raid.

Noaani

@Yuyukoyay

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

I know this because it's how I always played WoW. I top charts without even attempting to min max for it. The builds I use generally become the meta because I'm better at min/maxing than most people. Meters never influenced my gameplay regardless. Me not trying to min/max, min/maxes better than most trying.

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

I would like the ability to see all of my active abilities, a small description of what they do, and any possible stat scaling at level 1. So I can plan my char and have an idea of what stats to put points into without having to test it all first. Even if respeccing is a thing it would be nice if the game could guide me into knowing what decisions to make.

These two statements are contradictory.

You can not be someone whose builds become the meta of a game if you are also someone that would use in game suggestions for builds.

Simply not true.

I don't think anyone on this thread - regardless of their positon on combat trackers - would have any trouble at all figuring out which one of these two quotes from you is a complete and total lie.

Whiskiz

DPS Meters are a necessary evil.

They're great for self improvement - they helped me find out i was playing a class the wrong way before, in Rift.

They're great to see who needs help and who doesn't in a guild. Whether it be gear or skill related or otherwise.

They're great to see what combos of what classes are great for dps, healing, tanking, support etc and what isn't.

And the only drawback is fair enough - that some people will gate entry to their personal groups, based on your performance. Disallowing DPS Meters because of this, is basically you forcing more skilled players to have to play with and carry lesser skilled players.

Why do they not get to have that choice?

With all the other open world pvp and general semi-hardcore rules, why would you suddenly turn and do a 180 on this one thing, suddenly turning carebear?

Also no factions so you aren't told who your friends and enemies are, you're free to choose your allies and enemies in almost every single way, but all of a sudden you don't get a say here?

"you can kill anyone you want anytime, you can kill other groups in dungeons, you can kill people and their caravans and loot their stuff, you can attack and destroy peoples towns and houses and take their stuff, you can have anyone you want as friend or foe - but no you can't have a dps meter because this is a safe space"

Like what? Lmao.

*Hiding information to force players who have the time, skill and are generally much more invested in the game to have to play with busy, casual, less skilled, less interested, less performing players - is inherently wrong*

Let people be able to adequately make the distinction so the groups can find people who share their own interests, abilities and general investment.

Wouldn't that make for a more healthier atmosphere for those groups and gameplay in general? The only downside is the odd time when those 2 groups clash (mostly just casual players looking to join a more experienced group, that's instead looking for players of similar level to enjoy a more suitable experience - or "elitism" as it's known in casual circles.)

Samson1

It's crazy how many posts on this thread have already been said previously... An endless round of recycled thoughts/ideas.

Noaani

Samson wrote: »

It's crazy how many posts on this thread have already been said previously... An endless round of recycled thoughts/ideas.

Indeed it is. However, it is also an endless round of new posters.

This is why I am still happy to participate in this discussion, after over a year.

Aeri

noaani wrote: »

Indeed it is. However, it is also an endless round of new posters.

This is why I am still happy to participate in this discussion, after over a year.

I finally figured out yesterday how to skip to the developer posts on these forums, and read the few made by Steven earlier on. Made me pretty sad to see, honestly. Especially when he specifically confirmed that there will be combat logs. That alone is enough to guarantee a third-party tool of some sort will be created, even excluding any other methods of obtaining the data.

It kind of boggles my mind for the stance he takes towards trackers.

rikardp98

I accidentally reposed my old comment, trying to delete this one but I can't xD can only edit it. Please help 😆

Lukian

I think a DPS meter would be great. It's usually the first thing I look to grab in any MMO I can. Not a lot support it, but if you look at WoW, almost anyone that plays now uses a DPS meter.

Samson1

Lukian wrote: »

I think a DPS meter would be great. It's usually the first thing I look to grab in any MMO I can. Not a lot support it, but if you look at WoW, almost anyone that plays now uses a DPS meter.

AoC is it's own game... AoC is not trying to be WoW.

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