mavick wrote: » nelsonrebel wrote: » 2. History shows that once ingame measured of trackers are implemented and are used without player consent the pve community becomes a toxic wasteland of centimeter measuring and blatant elitism. Steven himself has already said and explained the same thing. Arguing semantics over what is known and experienced is not an argument its just you being angry that people point out what inevitably happens when you make it easy for elitism to thrive, it stalls out the community from new players because self absorbed groups take meters as the holy grail only acceptable way to do content This isn't true. Games have always had toxicity in them whether these exist or not. This makes an easy target since people choose to express it through that. But as I said in another post, if they don't exist, they'll just express it in other ways instead. They, in no way whatsoever, represent the onset of toxicity in any game I've ever played. I dislike seeing arguments like this being used, since there's such little thought put into it.
nelsonrebel wrote: » 2. History shows that once ingame measured of trackers are implemented and are used without player consent the pve community becomes a toxic wasteland of centimeter measuring and blatant elitism. Steven himself has already said and explained the same thing. Arguing semantics over what is known and experienced is not an argument its just you being angry that people point out what inevitably happens when you make it easy for elitism to thrive, it stalls out the community from new players because self absorbed groups take meters as the holy grail only acceptable way to do content
nelsonrebel wrote: » mavick wrote: » nelsonrebel wrote: » 2. History shows that once ingame measured of trackers are implemented and are used without player consent the pve community becomes a toxic wasteland of centimeter measuring and blatant elitism. Steven himself has already said and explained the same thing. Arguing semantics over what is known and experienced is not an argument its just you being angry that people point out what inevitably happens when you make it easy for elitism to thrive, it stalls out the community from new players because self absorbed groups take meters as the holy grail only acceptable way to do content This isn't true. Games have always had toxicity in them whether these exist or not. This makes an easy target since people choose to express it through that. But as I said in another post, if they don't exist, they'll just express it in other ways instead. They, in no way whatsoever, represent the onset of toxicity in any game I've ever played. I dislike seeing arguments like this being used, since there's such little thought put into it. I disagree, from my experience (apparently stevens as well) Meters ruined the pve community in the majority of my gaming times. And eventually disuaded any new players from being engaged with to do content to the point the content stagnated to only a few trials guilds doing any of the content. This is not universally true but it is what I've experienced for the majority of the mmo's I've played. It just incentivizes and makes toxic behaviour easier to implement because of the meters usage to single out folks or blanket blame. And while you are correct that toxic behaviour will happen regardless in other ways, this one is by and far the biggest offender because of it's easy access and specificity. Removing it makes the toxic behaviour that much more difficult.
nelsonrebel wrote: » I disagree, from my experience (apparently stevens as well) Meters ruined the pve community in the majority of my gaming times. And eventually disuaded any new players from being engaged with to do content to the point the content stagnated to only a few trials guilds doing any of the content. This is not universally true but it is what I've experienced for the majority of the mmo's I've played. It just incentivizes and makes toxic behaviour easier to implement because of the meters usage to single out folks or blanket blame. And while you are correct that toxic behaviour will happen regardless in other ways, this one is by and far the biggest offender because of it's easy access and specificity. Removing it makes the toxic behaviour that much more difficult.
Linstead wrote: » People who are poor are more likely to get bullied by people at school. Should we ban poor (or rich people) people from attending school to get rid of bullying?
Linstead wrote: » nelsonrebel wrote: » mavick wrote: » nelsonrebel wrote: » 2. History shows that once ingame measured of trackers are implemented and are used without player consent the pve community becomes a toxic wasteland of centimeter measuring and blatant elitism. Steven himself has already said and explained the same thing. Arguing semantics over what is known and experienced is not an argument its just you being angry that people point out what inevitably happens when you make it easy for elitism to thrive, it stalls out the community from new players because self absorbed groups take meters as the holy grail only acceptable way to do content This isn't true. Games have always had toxicity in them whether these exist or not. This makes an easy target since people choose to express it through that. But as I said in another post, if they don't exist, they'll just express it in other ways instead. They, in no way whatsoever, represent the onset of toxicity in any game I've ever played. I dislike seeing arguments like this being used, since there's such little thought put into it. I disagree, from my experience (apparently stevens as well) Meters ruined the pve community in the majority of my gaming times. And eventually disuaded any new players from being engaged with to do content to the point the content stagnated to only a few trials guilds doing any of the content. This is not universally true but it is what I've experienced for the majority of the mmo's I've played. It just incentivizes and makes toxic behaviour easier to implement because of the meters usage to single out folks or blanket blame. And while you are correct that toxic behaviour will happen regardless in other ways, this one is by and far the biggest offender because of it's easy access and specificity. Removing it makes the toxic behaviour that much more difficult. People who are poor are more likely to get bullied by people at school. Should we ban poor (or rich people) people from attending school to get rid of bullying?
Neurath wrote: » Linstead wrote: » People who are poor are more likely to get bullied by people at school. Should we ban poor (or rich people) people from attending school to get rid of bullying? It is a poor argument because severe Bullies can get excluded in my country.
mavick wrote: » nelsonrebel wrote: » I disagree, from my experience (apparently stevens as well) Meters ruined the pve community in the majority of my gaming times. And eventually disuaded any new players from being engaged with to do content to the point the content stagnated to only a few trials guilds doing any of the content. This is not universally true but it is what I've experienced for the majority of the mmo's I've played. It just incentivizes and makes toxic behaviour easier to implement because of the meters usage to single out folks or blanket blame. And while you are correct that toxic behaviour will happen regardless in other ways, this one is by and far the biggest offender because of it's easy access and specificity. Removing it makes the toxic behaviour that much more difficult. Again, it just sounds silly to be blaming a tool for what people choose to do with their actions. I've seen your exact argument being used for years, it's always comes across as overstated, i.e.: it killed x game, when it actually did not, in truth. I know people like to be hyperbolic and we're emotional creatures. But that doesn't necessarily add up to good arguments.
Neurath wrote: » Depth and complexity? I believe DPS Meters reduce the depth and the complexity. Some refer to EQ and claim DPS Meters made life easier - which is the whole issue with DPS Meters. In EQ you were considered a good player if you could clear the content, in EQ you had little to no feedback at all in the content. DPS Meters changed this of course, but, it simplified the methods. It boggles my mind how adamant some are for DPS Meters when we have no knowledge of the High End Raids. We have no knowledge of the depth, no knowledge of the complexity, no knowledge of most of the classes. We have been told there won't be a DPS Meter. To me it signifies the encounters won't need a DPS Meter. It would be bad Raid design if an encounter requires a DPS Meter and we can be banned for DPS Meters.
saraphita wrote: » I don't think DPS meters themselves are problematic. What IS problematic is how players take that information and utilize it. This is not an exhaustive list, but I think you really just have to look at the pros and cons and pick whichever is best for the game. Pros: Opportunity to see your quantitative output and make self-improvement Would give the ability to compare secondary class choices, gear, etc. for the same primary class Lend guilds (particularly raiding guilds) the ability to set some standards for applicants Cons: Can create a toxic environment where low performers are ridiculed and ostracized rather than helped Once you are branded as "bad", you are generally not given advice (just told you suck) or a 2nd chance if you've improved greatly since last grouping Gatekeeping begins to happen (e.g. "LFM <class> - Must be able to do at least 500 DPS") Performing other vital tasks (kiting, CC, etc.) in fights gets discouraged because the focus is often too much on damage For me personally I like the pros, but I think the cons can inevitably create an undesirable game experience. I agree with Steven on this one.
Linstead wrote: » This post seems oddly skewed towards someone who dislikes damage meters!
Linstead wrote: » First of all, you didn't mention that you could in fact help players understand their class and damage better in the pros. You also didn't mention that it would help massively in raid encounters where there are mechanics unbeknownst to the common player.
Linstead wrote: » For the second con if someone had actually drastically improved their performance, then they would be able to link their meters and PROVE that they did, so most of the time they would be given a second chance.
Linstead wrote: » As someone who has been in social guilds and in top tier guilds, I've never seen someone get ostracized forever. I've seen people get kicked and then invited back the very next week when they have solved their issues. I've also given advice as a 99th percentile player of my class, and I've also received advice when I was a new player and was doing really poorly. So the second con I've never actually seen. Has it happened? Probably, but I'd say the more likely scenario is the guy sucked AND they were being super obnoxious/whiny/generally unlikable and that's why they were never given a second chance.
Linstead wrote: » Thirdly the 4th con is just ludicrous. If the raid leader can't see the value of someone who is using their utility to help the raid and focuses more on dps numbers (remember, trackers track more than just damage/healing, they can track a plethora of things including utility) then they are a bad raid leader and a bad guild that you SHOULD NOT WANT TO BE APART OF. Being kicked by someone like that is a goddamn blessing in my eyes.
Euphorrix wrote: » My closing thoughts: Public DPS Meter: Bad / Private DPS Meter: Good / No DPS Meter: Ok
Ademptio wrote: » Just for the sake of it. I will throw in my 2 cents opinion. I love DPS meters cause I strive to be good at my role. But I would prefer NO DPS meter, I have several reason(s)for this.
