Loot System

There has been a lot of HYPE for this game as of the last month or so, hence, it has reached my ears/eye.
I started to read the wiki and watch the varies youtube vids to learn more.

As someone who has played the largest population MMO currently in play, I have some experience with the loot system and especially MASTER LOOTER aka NINJA Loot system.

I CAN NOT BELIEVE that all these experienced MMO developers think that a loot system based on MASTER LOOTER is a good idea!!

The largest population MMO switched off of MASTER LOOTer about two years ago to the great cheers of all players! It is now using what they call Personal Loot along with a bonus roll if the player chooses.

So, my experience with Master Looter aka Master NINJA.
1. My guild had to use a system called DKP (Dragon Kill Points) to keep guild members happy (honest guild)
2. Some guilds had rules where the officers where geared up first (run from those guilds)!
3. PUGs is where the NINJA comes into play, when its time to distribute the loot, after three or more hours of killing and being killed, the LOOT MASTER conveniently disconnects! All the hours are wasted, poof goes the loot.

Given the nature of the loot drops in AOC, rarity of gear drop and high need for high quality crafting material, the opportunity for GREED/NINJA and just plain Dishonesty abounds!

How in everything that is right with the world can the Chief Muck Muck think that a loot system based on Master Looter is a good idea? It is lazy thinking.

This will create a nightmare for the GMs chasing and trying to restore stolen loot not to mention endless DRAMA in guilds.
Has no one learned anything from playing the early 2000 MMO's?

If the loot system is Master Looter, I for one will not waste my time because I already know what will happen, never again will I waste my time in a game using that system.

The distribution of loot from World Boss kills is another story. It also needs more thought put into it or the very least, testing.

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Comments

Songcaller

Ah okay, I didn't play Mists of Pandaria, so I wasn't aware of the details of the PL Loot system.

Well I'm against that type of Loot System then

Zhab

Niraada wrote: »

@Zhab I agree with your assessment, although there might be some technical limitations to implementing an integrated bidding solution for loot directly within the game's systems, and it might require some organisation on the part of the player base (a la the old GDKP runs in WoW, which I quite enjoyed back in the day).

I kind of glossed over this part, but to be clear I'm talking about a bidding system that the devs of AoC are already looking into. It would be a looting system option hard coded in the game that players can select and not some honnor system among players. See the wiki. Available options:

Loot Master
Round-robin
Need before Greed
Bidding System

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Loot_tables

Bidding system
Intrepid are investigating a potential bidding system, which allows players to bid on items instead of rolling for them.[18]
- The highest bidder wins the item.
- The gold then goes into a pool that is split among the rest of the party members.

Yuyukoyay

Bidding System doesn't sound too bad. However the 3 options can't operate properly with ML in the game.

RahkstarRPG

You already scared away all of the players from Vanilla. They were never going to come back and they are why a lot of the competitors are successful.

The people who left were probably racists anyway. Those who didn't leave due to the chinese influence probably got sick of the game. Which could have been because of ML.

Numbers in a game growing is not indicative of ML working. It is the main cause of them leaving though.

These are some of the hottest, and most absolutely nonsensical, takes about WoW I have ever seen.

How about some numbers/examples besides your own personal feelings to prove these wild claims?

Because it’s pretty common knowledge that WoW’s most successful timeframe was BC-WotLK.

Jexz

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

However the 3 options can't operate properly with ML in the game.

Sorry if I missed the previous explanation of this. Can you repeat for me why this is the case?

Niraada

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

Bidding System doesn't sound too bad. However the 3 options can't operate properly with ML in the game.

Do you have any actual evidence to back that assertion? Let's try to establish minimum levels of credibility here.

You keep saying that other loot systems can't function when ML exists, but I haven't seen any evidence of that. Numerous past titles functioned with multiple loot systems in place, regardless of any problems might have existed with individual implementations of any given loot system.

And before you regurgitate the same anecdotes you have previously, I'm asking for actual evidence. Not speculation and hyperbole. Can you point to a particular title where other loot systems ceased functioning due to ML's existence?

Grievousness

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

You also forget that my way is superior for all group types regardless of how they got together. Whether it be a pug, guild, or friends.

No it is not, I have made a logical conclusion already that master looter is superior in certain situations
It's on page 2, can you not read?

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

By arguing for a choice including master loot you deny any negative downsides to master loot. Despite them being the most extreme downsides any system in a video game could ever have.

The logical structure of your argument is absolute trash there is no sense to be found here.
1. If you want something to be included you don't automaticly deny negative downsides,
that's not in the least self evident.
3. The downsides aren't the most extreme the game isn't blowing up or killing itself because it has master looter.
This is self evident since master looter was extremely used by the biggest chunk of the MMO community for most of the time without the community imploding or whatever you would describe as most extreme downsides.

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

You are also ignoring that the gear will be distributed in PL immediately. This doesn't mean that you are trusting 5 people's whims. It means it's their choice what to do from there. This is where the suspicion of abuse to control people comes from. It's why your argument is not an honest one.

Master looter is not about controlling people what you cannot do to begin with.
Apart from all those guys selling brainwashing mashines on ebay of course.
And this post is one of those where the suspicion comes in that you are just here to troll.

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

The randoms chosen cannot inherently have a preconceived bias because it was chosen at random. Any preconceived alliances related to gear is up to you regarding that.

Yea but this is not exactly about equity and it never really was.
Just because you hate human decision making it does not make personal loot any more preferable.

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

What you are incorrectly determining as a failure of the system is not a failure. Those players who you determined didn't deserve the items that got them anyway. Well you were just wrong. That entire mindset needs to go because it is not what older MMO's were founded on which is their goal to recreate to some extent in this game.

Sorry but you have literally no clue which mindest older MMOs were founded on.
I doubt you even have any clue what modern MMOs are about since you quit WOW in cata and the huge downfall of WOW was later down the line.
Watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Falm0H7VEiQ
Because that concept is what good MMOs where founded on and they literally make jokes about kiking people because they just absorb loot.
Even over a decade ago that was a thing, who could have figured.

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

Gear wasn't even a thought when those games were made because it was assumed the community wouldn't abuse it and distribute it relatively evenly among a group. That is how they worked for the most part.

It absolutely was watch the video I posted before just another time pls.
Again you have no clue what you even talk about.
If you have no clue at least spend an hour on google and educate yourself.

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

It was only since WoW those systems were abused and used in ways they were not intended. That is why so little of playerbase completed anything in those days. They mostly just left the game because of "drama". What they mean as "drama" is someone either Ninja looted or stole a relatively rare raid drop and /gquit.

The playerbase didn't complete much because at that time internet culture wasn't a thing, people had shitty pcs lagging in every raid, Internet connection was extremely bad and a hundred more reasons.
The list of reasons why progression was slow is literally endless.
Acting like you can directly point at one and say: "that's the sole reason" is simply insane.

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

The high completion rate of WoW classic is proof of this.

Have you actually informed yourself????
People literally cleared Onyxia without gear, they made a complete "naked run"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8wT1IjJITI

So assuming your argument from before wouldn't be complete trash, people back then could have literally cleared most raids with master looter since gear didn't matter to begin with.
It is of course not even remotely related to ANY OTHER REASON.
It is just because people ninja looted with master looter even nakeds could clear it.

Caeryl wrote: »

We can’t pretend PL is a perfect system because there’s no such thing. But it has a significantly lower risk of abuse and the impact of abuse is much less severe than ML. NBG is fairly close, and I do like bid systems as well since well, money.

Masterloot is really the only system I do not see as worth keeping. It’s functionality can be done in any system with some cooperation, while lacking the inherent issues of ML.

Now for the second time:
I made a post at page 2 where I pointed out in which way the different loot system are good or almost perfect.
Maybe try reading it.

Also you are mistaken master looter is the most important to keep
Master looter is the most flexible system of them all since it has no set way how the party decides to distribute the loot.
What that means in practice is that a guild decides on a trustworthy person to give master looter so he can enforce the decision made by the group.
Because of that you can have loot distributed however you (as a party) see fit.

You can make a democratic vote as a party, you can bid for it, you can have a lootcouncil make the decision, you can have any variant of DKP, you can make a priority based system based on bis lists people can hand in at the beginning of new tiers, there are basically unlimited options.

If you don't have Master looter you take away all those potential ways of distributing loot.
This unreached level of flexibility which greatly enables different communities to do their own thing, is absolutely unique to master looter.

The problem brought up that the loot master can be a bad person was mostly neglected since it is totally uncommom to actually occur in good guilds.
Deciding on one trustworthy person is in fact such a reliable system that most governments have one person in charge of the whole executive power as well.
The only areas where problems actually occur more frequently is in the pug world.
But if you sign up for a pug you can just make sure the loot masters reputation is good, make a party yourself or search until you find a party not using master loot.
There are a ton of options.

And this is all repetition of older posts by the way.

Grievousness

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

Bidding System doesn't sound too bad. However the 3 options can't operate properly with ML in the game.

Bidding systems have in fact been used already and have only been possible because of master looter.
Commonly people bid on items, the master looter hands out the item in exchange for the money.
At the end of the raid the money that was paid for the items was split between the raid members.

This system is perfectly fine if you for example don't need items but need to make money.
Others may prefer it to ensure getting their loot.

HiddenDaggerInn

petesmisc wrote: »

Well, so far the comments are terrifyingly amazing to me!
The McDonald's of MMOs? McDonald's is a very profitable franchise with millions eating their food every day, don't make lite of that!
They will have other loot systems, yes NeedB4Greed is another looser and of course, round robin, all system from fifteen years ago!

There is nothing interesting in this MMO, I like the idea of the Class system although I think Guild Wars had that over a decade ago (where are they now?)

The point of a MMO is to play with others (PVE) and against others (PVP) and in return for the time spent I expect to have something to show for it and not be scammed by a loot system.

Everyone talks about a community/love and peace blah blah blah, but the fact is, children are playing the game, greedy/nasty/ just plain dip shits will be playing the game, no amount of expectation or desire for honesty or fairness or "oh he's my guildy or oh, he/she didn't get anything yet" is involved when it comes to loot, everyone wants it, that's what everyone plays for. And its even more emphasized in this game because of the need for high level crafting items

So, for me, I'm not holding my breath for this game, the loot system as it currently is defined tells me all I need to know.

You're right, there is nothing here for you. Please move along. Don't need this in the community nor want to have to try to convince you of something you don't want to see.

> Door

Grievousness

Generally speaking though bidding systems in Ashes won't work properly like they did in wow.
In WOW everything was soulbound in Ashes it isn't.

That basically means that people will bid up to the usual trading price of the item and then immidiately stop bidding, since overpaying the market place price makes no sense.

Caeryl

Grievousness wrote: »

Generally speaking though bidding systems in Ashes won't work properly like they did in wow.
In WOW everything was soulbound in Ashes it isn't.

That basically means that people will bid up to the usual trading price of the item and then immidiately stop bidding, since overpaying the market place price makes no sense.

Not really. Yes (mostly) everything will be freely tradable, but it won’t be freely or widely available. It won’t always be convenient to retrieve purchase items even in an Economic metro ZOI. Those items might not even have a good market if you wanted to get them elsewhere.

Grievousness

Caeryl wrote: »

Not really. Yes (mostly) everything will be freely tradable, but it won’t be freely or widely available. It won’t always be convenient to retrieve purchase items even in an Economic metro ZOI. Those items might not even have a good market if you wanted to get them elsewhere.

If it doesn't have a price because there is no market it's even better you can define the price.
Then the thing defining the highest bid will be the max estimated selling price.

vhbenin

I said this in a topic and i will say it again. Make a voting system for loot and let the players in the group/raid reach a consensus

Caeryl

Grievousness wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Not really. Yes (mostly) everything will be freely tradable, but it won’t be freely or widely available. It won’t always be convenient to retrieve purchase items even in an Economic metro ZOI. Those items might not even have a good market if you wanted to get them elsewhere.

If it doesn't have a price because there is no market it's even better you can define the price.
Then the thing defining the highest bid will be the max estimated selling price.

I think that’s fine too if people bid in an effort to profit off the materials (that’s what everyone strives to do in some way or other). The primary logic behind pricing/bidding usually is:
1) Availability - Can I run this content multiple times, or is it limited either by time or by amount? Can I find this item in other places?
2) Rarity - What’s the likelihood this item drops again for someone?
3) Use - Can I use this item immediately or would I have to upgrade it first? Does my class have proficiency in this gear?
4) Convenience - Assuming I can get it elsewhere, is it easier to pay more now and get it immediately? If I needed to go out of my way to transport it from another source, is the time worth it?

Access to funds of course is important, but aside from discussions about inflation, it’s not really something that determines and item’s general value.

ShroudedFox

wow, what a discussion has been had here. @zhab thanks for bringing the conversation back to a civil manner your quite the respectable fellow.

@Yuyukoyay I honestly suspect your just trying to stir up trouble but I could be wrong, you may have had bad experiences with ML because your attitude towards other people make you come off as someone I would never want in my guild.

I like to help my guildies grow with me so sharing loot seems like a good idea to me.
I also believe in democratic process so a guild electing an individual to the distribute the loot based on an agreed system would seem to be the safest way to protect everyones interest. This requires that someone have ML to stop griefing happening.

I really like the bidding mechanic I can see it being especially popular close to economic nodes where market value would be better known.

Personal loot goes against core design philosophies that I've heard IS say "not everyone is going to get a participation reward" and I think it is detrimental to the looting system as a whole because it incentives going to raid just to ninja loot as a person with no a affiliation can take gear on the first run they do and then guild hop.

In a pug setting I think most players will insure their time investment by either picking a reputable raid leader or just joining a raid that is using a system such as nb4g or bidding.

this being said with raids being open world I can see pug groups having a clear disadvantage because smaller guilds are given passive buffs they invest into them. So I see coalitions of guilds forming to try and safe guard these larger world boss to bring economic benefits to their node all this content is going to be highly contested at end game, I just don't see pug groups standing a chance against organised guilds which may even have an epic flying mount capable of doing aoe damage if they own a castle.

player interaction is being given a front seat in this game so why would powerful guilds want to reward a one off disposable person who brings nothing to their guild?

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